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Q

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  • synoptic_joe
    Since I ve just arrived to this list and haven t read all the conversations people have had so far, forgive me if I m bringing up a boring or already discussed
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 7, 2006
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      Since I've just arrived to this list and haven't read all the
      conversations people have had so far, forgive me if I'm bringing up a
      boring or already discussed subject but...

      What do you/anyone reading this think about Q: existence, logic,
      evidence, history?

      I've read about the normally accepted views of Mark priority and Q,
      Mark priority without Q, Luke priority, or Matthew priority. If I
      didn't get everything wrong, I perceived that these views depended all
      on the affirmation that, at some point in history, two different
      writers had one and the same document (different one for each view).
      And my question is: is this affirmation likely historically???

      I also read about B.E. Wilson´s view of the Logia. I thought it wasn't
      bad.

      Any views on the subject?
    • Ron Price
      ... Welcome to the Synoptic-L discussion list. Please append at least your first name and surname at the end of your contributions so we know who you are. ...
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 8, 2006
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        Anon (Joe?) wrote:

        > Since I've just arrived to this list.....

        Welcome to the Synoptic-L discussion list.

        Please append at least your first name and surname at the end of your
        contributions so we know who you are.

        > What do you/anyone reading this think about Q: existence, logic,
        > evidence, history?

        I'm one of the minority who think there is convincing evidence that the
        author of Luke's gospel had a copy of Matthew's gospel in front of him as
        one of his sources. Therefore I consider Q as normally understood to be an
        illusion. This conclusion is confirmed by the lack of a coherent structure
        in Q, and also by its muddled genre (sayings of John the Baptist followed by
        mixed narrative/sayings followed by a string of pure sayings).

        > I've read about the normally accepted views of Mark priority and Q,
        > Mark priority without Q, Luke priority, or Matthew priority. If I
        > didn't get everything wrong, I perceived that these views depended all
        > on the affirmation that, at some point in history, two different
        > writers had one and the same document (different one for each view).
        > And my question is: is this affirmation likely historically???

        I'm not sure what you mean here. If you are asking whether it is likely that
        some gospel authors had more than one written source, my answer would be
        "Yes".

        > I also read about B.E. Wilson´s view of the Logia. I thought it wasn't
        > bad.

        Brian's source theory was a simple concept and quite fascinating.
        Unfortunately it did have some serious problems. For instance it posited a
        logia document which was around 50% bigger than the biggest extant NT
        document (Acts). Such a large "notebook" seems to me extremely unlikely.

        Ron Price

        Derbyshire, UK

        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
      • Tim Lewis
        Anon/Joe? asked: I ve read about the normally accepted views of Mark priority and Q, Mark priority without Q, Luke priority, or Matthew priority. If I didn t
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 8, 2006
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          Anon/Joe? asked: I've read about the normally accepted views of Mark priority and Q,
          Mark priority without Q, Luke priority, or Matthew priority. If I
          didn't get everything wrong, I perceived that these views depended all
          on the affirmation that, at some point in history, two different
          writers had one and the same document (different one for each view).
          And my question is: is this affirmation likely historically???

          Tim: I think the question refers to the likelihood or unlikelihood that (at least) two Gospel authors had a copy (or perhaps an identical copy) of the first written Gospel rather than writing independently.

          The reply to such a question has to be that the Synoptic Problem as it is usually defined, already assumes that at least two of the Gospel texts must be literarily (inter)connected, hence the "problem" of ascertaining whose dependence on whom even if this is on an earlier document (proto-Gospel). Scholars who do not believe that any Gospel author used any previous written Gospels or proto-Gospels would generally be considered as denying that there is a synoptic problem. The synoptic problem is premised on a literary premise which assumes literary sources explain the similarities (but not necessarily excluding oral sources as well).

          I would refer the questioner to Stephen Carlson's website for a good intro:
          http://www.hypotyposeis.org/synoptic-problem/

          Anon/Joe?: What do you/anyone reading this think about Q: existence, logic,
          evidence, history?

          Tim: As for Q, there is really no consensus here! I think most subscribers of this list have grave doubts about Q ever being a document. I don't even know who on this list would argue for it but perhaps they might speak for themselves.

          Tim Lewis.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: synoptic_joe
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 3:41 AM
          Subject: [Synoptic-L] Q


          Since I've just arrived to this list and haven't read all the
          conversations people have had so far, forgive me if I'm bringing up a
          boring or already discussed subject but...

          What do you/anyone reading this think about Q: existence, logic,
          evidence, history?

          I've read about the normally accepted views of Mark priority and Q,
          Mark priority without Q, Luke priority, or Matthew priority. If I
          didn't get everything wrong, I perceived that these views depended all
          on the affirmation that, at some point in history, two different
          writers had one and the same document (different one for each view).
          And my question is: is this affirmation likely historically???

          I also read about B.E. Wilson´s view of the Logia. I thought it wasn't
          bad.

          Any views on the subject?






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        • E Bruce Brooks
          To: Synoptic In Response To: Tim Lewis From: Bruce In defining the Synoptic Problem, for those who think there is one, Tim had said: TIM: I think the question
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 9, 2006
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            To: Synoptic
            In Response To: Tim Lewis
            From: Bruce

            In defining the Synoptic Problem, for those who think there is one, Tim had
            said:

            TIM: I think the question refers to the likelihood or unlikelihood that (at
            least) two Gospel authors had a copy (or perhaps an identical copy) of the
            first written Gospel rather than writing independently. / The reply to such
            a question has to be that the Synoptic Problem as it is usually defined,
            already assumes that at least two of the Gospel texts must be literarily
            (inter)connected, hence the "problem" of ascertaining whose dependence on
            whom even if this is on an earlier document (proto-Gospel).

            BRUCE: No misunderstanding is likely, but in a technical sense, I would take
            issue with "at least two of the Gospel texts." Surely it is "three." If we
            label the three Synoptics as A, B, C, then I think that solutions where one
            of the Synoptics stands apart, unconnected to either of the others, such as
            I would symbolize by the formula A | B, C (and its possible variants) would
            not be regarded as responding to the question as usually posed. Nor, as Tim
            points out, would solutions of the type A | B | C, where all three Synoptics
            arose independently of each other. The solutions available to the Synoptic
            Problem, on this understanding, and omitting complications due to the
            inclusion of other sources, are not the total theoretical 25, but only the
            trebly connected 18.

            To list the 18 (or the 25) is merely a matter of combinatorics. It is set
            forth in various places; my own version, hopefully a convenient one, will be
            found at http://www.umass.edu/wsp > Biblica > Synoptic > Theories.
            Corrections always welcome.

            Bruce

            E Bruce Brooks
            Research Professor of Chinese
            Warring States Project
            University of Massachusetts at Amherst
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