Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

German Question re Storr 1786

Expand Messages
  • Stephen C. Carlson
    I m going through G. Ch. Storr s treatment of Marcan priority in his _Ueber den Zwek [sic] der evangelisten Geschichte und der Briefe Johannis_ (Tübingen:
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 10, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      I'm going through G. Ch. Storr's treatment of Marcan priority
      in his _Ueber den Zwek [sic] der evangelisten Geschichte und
      der Briefe Johannis_ (Tübingen: Heerbrandt, 1786), and I'm
      having a little trouble fully comprehending a construction
      that does not appear in my dictionaries:

      On p. 274, Storr writes: "Einer von beiden Evangelisten hat
      also wahrscheinlich den anderen vor sich gehabt, und wir
      müssen entweder des Marcus Schrift als einen Auszug aus Lucas,
      oder Lucä Geschichte als ein weitläufigeres Werk betrachten,
      wobey Marcus zu Grund gelegt worden ist."

      It is the last clause "wobey Marcus zu Grund gelegt worden ist"
      that interests me. What does "zu Grund legen" mean exactly?
      Is it appropriate to construe "zu Grund legen" as "to make one's
      base" or is some other rendering better?

      Here's how I am currently understanding the sentence: "One of
      the two evangelists probably thus had the other before himself,
      and we must regard either Mark’s writing as an excerpt from Luke,
      or Luke’s history as a lengthier work, for which Mark was made
      its base."

      Another instance of the same expression shows up later on pp. 274-5:
      "Hingegen konnte Lucas nicht zwekmässiger handlen, als wenn er das
      Evangelium Petri (§. 56.) ..., zu Grund legte, und durch die Zusäze
      bereicherte, die er von anderen Augenzeugen zu Jerusalem erfahren
      hatte (§. 57.)." which discusses how appropriate it was for Luke
      to make Peter's gospel its base and enrich it with additional
      material.

      Stephen Carlson
      --
      Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
      Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
      Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Stephen, I asked my wife -- who lived over a decade in Germany and has her doctorate in German literature -- about your translation: One of the two
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 10, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Stephen, I asked my wife -- who lived over a decade in
        Germany and has her doctorate in German literature --
        about your translation:

        "One of the two evangelists probably thus had the
        other before himself, and we must regard either Mark's
        writing as an excerpt from Luke, or Luke's history as
        a lengthier work, for which Mark was made its base."

        My wife says that this is correct (and I had also
        thought so but didn't trust my judgement despite my 6
        years in Tuebingen).

        But I suppose that you ought to check with a German
        speaker to be really sure.

        Jeffery Hodges


        --- "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson@...>
        wrote:

        >
        > I'm going through G. Ch. Storr's treatment of Marcan
        > priority
        > in his _Ueber den Zwek [sic] der evangelisten
        > Geschichte und
        > der Briefe Johannis_ (T?ingen: Heerbrandt, 1786),
        > and I'm
        > having a little trouble fully comprehending a
        > construction
        > that does not appear in my dictionaries:
        >
        > On p. 274, Storr writes: "Einer von beiden
        > Evangelisten hat
        > also wahrscheinlich den anderen vor sich gehabt, und
        > wir
        > m?sen entweder des Marcus Schrift als einen Auszug
        > aus Lucas,
        > oder Luc?Geschichte als ein weitl?figeres Werk
        > betrachten,
        > wobey Marcus zu Grund gelegt worden ist."
        >
        > It is the last clause "wobey Marcus zu Grund gelegt
        > worden ist"
        > that interests me. What does "zu Grund legen" mean
        > exactly?
        > Is it appropriate to construe "zu Grund legen" as
        > "to make one's
        > base" or is some other rendering better?
        >
        > Here's how I am currently understanding the
        > sentence: "One of
        > the two evangelists probably thus had the other
        > before himself,
        > and we must regard either Mark’s writing as an
        > excerpt from Luke,
        > or Luke’s history as a lengthier work, for which
        > Mark was made
        > its base."
        >
        > Another instance of the same expression shows up
        > later on pp. 274-5:
        > "Hingegen konnte Lucas nicht zwekm?siger handlen,
        > als wenn er das
        > Evangelium Petri (? 56.) ..., zu Grund legte, und
        > durch die Zus?e
        > bereicherte, die er von anderen Augenzeugen zu
        > Jerusalem erfahren
        > hatte (? 57.)." which discusses how appropriate it
        > was for Luke
        > to make Peter's gospel its base and enrich it with
        > additional
        > material.
        >
        > Stephen Carlson
        > --
        > Stephen C. Carlson
        > mailto:scarlson@...
        > Weblog:
        > http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
        > Author of: The Gospel Hoax,
        > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > --------------------~-->
        > Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and
        > poor with hope and healing
        >
        http://us.click.yahoo.com/B6T8nB/Vp3LAA/EcBKAA/J2VolB/TM
        >
        --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
        >
        >
        > Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-l
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        > Synoptic-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Blog:

        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
        Sinnae-dong 795
        Jungrang-gu
        Seoul 131-770
        South Korea
      • Jim West
        ... If it s any consolation that s how I rendered it too. Jim -- Jim West Biblical Studies Resources - http://web.infoave.net/~jwest Biblical Theology Weblog
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 10, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

          > "One of the two evangelists probably thus had the
          > other before himself, and we must regard either Mark's
          > writing as an excerpt from Luke, or Luke's history as
          > a lengthier work, for which Mark was made its base."
          >
          > My wife says that this is correct (and I had also
          > thought so but didn't trust my judgement despite my 6
          > years in Tuebingen).


          If it's any consolation that's how I rendered it too.

          Jim

          --
          Jim West
          Biblical Studies Resources - http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
          Biblical Theology Weblog - http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com
        • Tony Buglass
          (I tried to send this last night, but it came back. Trying again...) According to my German dictionary, die Grundlegung is a foundation. To capture the
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 11, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            (I tried to send this last night, but it came back. Trying again...)

            According to my German dictionary, "die Grundlegung" is a foundation. To capture the picture, I'd translate "wobei Marcus zu Grund gelegt worden ist" as "for which Mark became the foundation."

            Cheers,
            Rev Tony Buglass
            Superintendent Minister
            Upper Calder Methodist Circuit


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stephen C. Carlson
            ... Thanks to everyone for all your help. This is helpful. Offlist, Ed Tyler suggested to take as a basis or to base [something] upon from the modern
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 11, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              At 01:24 PM 1/11/2006 +0000, Tony Buglass wrote:
              >According to my German dictionary, "die Grundlegung" is a foundation. To capture the picture, I'd translate "wobei Marcus zu Grund gelegt worden ist" as "for which Mark became the foundation."

              Thanks to everyone for all your help. This is helpful.
              Offlist, Ed Tyler suggested "to take as a basis" or
              "to base [something] upon" from the modern idiom
              "zugrunde legen" which I found especially useful.

              Stephen Carlson
              --
              Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
              Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
              Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.