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Re: [Synoptic-L] Point of clarification concerning Abba

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  • Jim West
    This is the same thing as saying that because Mark and Paul both used the word gospel they must be related. Similarity of vocabulary dependence does not
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 9, 2005
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      This is the same thing as saying that because Mark and Paul both used
      the word "gospel" they must be related. Similarity of vocabulary
      dependence does not make.

      Jim


      Richard Richmond wrote:

      >And now what I conceive to be the most striking
      >attestation of the Pauline influence in the Gospel of
      >Mark:
      >
      >The Jesus of Mark in the garden of Gethsemane used the
      >term Abba (14:36) with reference to God which is only
      >found in Mark and in the letters of Paul (Romans 8:15
      >and Galatians 4:6).
      >
      --
      D. Jim West

      Biblical Studies Resources - http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
      Biblical Theology Weblog - http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com
    • John Lupia
      ... When you claim the concept of God as intimate friend is based in Homer (which you never support with evidence) equating the concept to Jesus use in MK
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 9, 2005
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        --- Richard Richmond <rickr2889@...> wrote:

        > I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word but
        > that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
        > basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
        > tradition.


        When you claim the "concept of God as intimate friend"
        is based in Homer (which you never support with
        evidence) equating the concept to Jesus' use in MK
        then you must mean that the Homeric concept of God is
        monotheistic and the relationship is far more intimate
        than "friend" but as one's daddy. Where in Homer do we
        find a monotheistic concept of God and anyone
        portrayed as speaking to this monotheistic God as
        their daddy?


        RICK: "It is a Greek thought not Jewish."

        So you are saying that monotheism is Homeric era Greek
        existing in Homeric texts (which are not cited)
        predating any Jewish concept. This further implies
        that the Jews borrowed this idea from the Homeric
        Greeks and you have evidence and proof of this claim.
        It further implies that MK knew of this and is too
        borrowing from Homer (yet uncited) since Paul before
        MK had already done so.

        Well, where's the evidence?

        John


        John N. Lupia, III
        Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA
        Fax: (732) 349-3910
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
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      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Could you please cite the specific texts in the Iliad or the Odyssey in which you see the concept of God as intimate friend   expressed? Jeffrey ...
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 10, 2005
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          Richard Richmond wrote:

          > I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word but
          > that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
          > basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
          > tradition.

          Could you please cite the specific texts in the Iliad or the Odyssey in
          which you see "the concept of God as intimate friend"� expressed?

          Jeffrey
          ---

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          Chicago, IL 60626

          jgibson000@...



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Lupia
          ... Jeffrey B. Gibson ... Dear Jeffrey; I already asked and thrice pointed out his claim was left uncited without sources, apparently to deaf ears. He did
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 10, 2005
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            > Richard Richmond wrote:
            >
            > > I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word
            > but
            > > that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
            > > basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
            > > tradition.





            "Jeffrey B. Gibson"

            > Could you please cite the specific texts in the
            > Iliad or the Odyssey in
            > which you see "the concept of God as intimate
            > friend"  expressed?


            Dear Jeffrey;

            I already asked and thrice pointed out his claim was
            left uncited without sources, apparently to deaf ears.
            He did answer by twisting things around saying: "As to
            the citations, do you really care where HO AGAQOS or
            ATTA can be found, will it change anything?"


            However, he also not only changes his claim but his
            mind. For example, in his previous post he said:


            And
            > Matthew also has ABBA missing from the Garden
            > narrative. Now Paul writing many years before either
            > of the Synoptics uses ABBA in the context of prayer.
            > The word is EXCLUSIVE to the text of Mark and the
            > Pauline Letters of Romans and Galatians. These are
            > the
            > facts and they indicate that Paul has a broader
            > understanding of how one can relate to God the
            > Father.
            > I say that is due to the influence of Greek Culture
            > and Classic Greek Literature in his upbringing and
            that Mark has drawn it from the writing of Paul.

            Lupia:
            So Paul’s influence by Greek Culture and Classic Greek
            Literature is the cause or reason why Paul uses ABBA
            and not PATER. I thought Rick claimed that he: "did
            not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word."
            Apparently he does think Abba is Greek since Paul
            learned to use this word "due to the influence of
            Greek Culture and Classic Greek Literature in his
            upbringing." As Rick says: "These are the facts". Now
            how can anyone argue with that rationale and logic?

            BTW nice work on the Hort links.


            Best regards,
            John N. Lupia, III



            John N. Lupia, III
            Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA
            Fax: (732) 349-3910
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
            God Bless America



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