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Point of clarification concerning Abba

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  • Richard Richmond
    And now what I conceive to be the most striking attestation of the Pauline influence in the Gospel of Mark: The Jesus of Mark in the garden of Gethsemane used
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 9 7:49 AM
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      And now what I conceive to be the most striking
      attestation of the Pauline influence in the Gospel of
      Mark:

      The Jesus of Mark in the garden of Gethsemane used the
      term Abba (14:36) with reference to God which is only
      found in Mark and in the letters of Paul (Romans 8:15
      and Galatians 4:6). This FACT alone is a remarkable
      connection which was not repeated in the either of the
      other two Synoptics. I am confident that the reason it
      is not repeated is because among traditionalists
      whether Greek Jewish believers or Palestinian Jewish
      believers this term is much too intimate and familiar
      to be used in reference to God). I believe Paul’s use
      of the term originates from Homer and was not Jewish
      at all. The fact that Mark puts this expression into
      the mouth of Jesus is unquestionably due to his
      connection to Paul.

      I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word but
      that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
      basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
      tradition. It is a Greek thought not Jewish.

      Rick



      Rick Richmond rickr2889@...



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    • Jim West
      This is the same thing as saying that because Mark and Paul both used the word gospel they must be related. Similarity of vocabulary dependence does not
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 9 7:57 AM
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        This is the same thing as saying that because Mark and Paul both used
        the word "gospel" they must be related. Similarity of vocabulary
        dependence does not make.

        Jim


        Richard Richmond wrote:

        >And now what I conceive to be the most striking
        >attestation of the Pauline influence in the Gospel of
        >Mark:
        >
        >The Jesus of Mark in the garden of Gethsemane used the
        >term Abba (14:36) with reference to God which is only
        >found in Mark and in the letters of Paul (Romans 8:15
        >and Galatians 4:6).
        >
        --
        D. Jim West

        Biblical Studies Resources - http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
        Biblical Theology Weblog - http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com
      • John Lupia
        ... When you claim the concept of God as intimate friend is based in Homer (which you never support with evidence) equating the concept to Jesus use in MK
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 9 8:48 AM
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          --- Richard Richmond <rickr2889@...> wrote:

          > I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word but
          > that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
          > basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
          > tradition.


          When you claim the "concept of God as intimate friend"
          is based in Homer (which you never support with
          evidence) equating the concept to Jesus' use in MK
          then you must mean that the Homeric concept of God is
          monotheistic and the relationship is far more intimate
          than "friend" but as one's daddy. Where in Homer do we
          find a monotheistic concept of God and anyone
          portrayed as speaking to this monotheistic God as
          their daddy?


          RICK: "It is a Greek thought not Jewish."

          So you are saying that monotheism is Homeric era Greek
          existing in Homeric texts (which are not cited)
          predating any Jewish concept. This further implies
          that the Jews borrowed this idea from the Homeric
          Greeks and you have evidence and proof of this claim.
          It further implies that MK knew of this and is too
          borrowing from Homer (yet uncited) since Paul before
          MK had already done so.

          Well, where's the evidence?

          John


          John N. Lupia, III
          Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA
          Fax: (732) 349-3910
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
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        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... Could you please cite the specific texts in the Iliad or the Odyssey in which you see the concept of God as intimate friend   expressed? Jeffrey ...
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 10 5:35 AM
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            Richard Richmond wrote:

            > I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word but
            > that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
            > basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
            > tradition.

            Could you please cite the specific texts in the Iliad or the Odyssey in
            which you see "the concept of God as intimate friend"� expressed?

            Jeffrey
            ---

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            Chicago, IL 60626

            jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John Lupia
            ... Jeffrey B. Gibson ... Dear Jeffrey; I already asked and thrice pointed out his claim was left uncited without sources, apparently to deaf ears. He did
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 10 7:26 AM
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              > Richard Richmond wrote:
              >
              > > I did not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word
              > but
              > > that the concept of God as intimate friend had is
              > > basis in the writing of Homer and not in Hebrew
              > > tradition.





              "Jeffrey B. Gibson"

              > Could you please cite the specific texts in the
              > Iliad or the Odyssey in
              > which you see "the concept of God as intimate
              > friend"  expressed?


              Dear Jeffrey;

              I already asked and thrice pointed out his claim was
              left uncited without sources, apparently to deaf ears.
              He did answer by twisting things around saying: "As to
              the citations, do you really care where HO AGAQOS or
              ATTA can be found, will it change anything?"


              However, he also not only changes his claim but his
              mind. For example, in his previous post he said:


              And
              > Matthew also has ABBA missing from the Garden
              > narrative. Now Paul writing many years before either
              > of the Synoptics uses ABBA in the context of prayer.
              > The word is EXCLUSIVE to the text of Mark and the
              > Pauline Letters of Romans and Galatians. These are
              > the
              > facts and they indicate that Paul has a broader
              > understanding of how one can relate to God the
              > Father.
              > I say that is due to the influence of Greek Culture
              > and Classic Greek Literature in his upbringing and
              that Mark has drawn it from the writing of Paul.

              Lupia:
              So Paul’s influence by Greek Culture and Classic Greek
              Literature is the cause or reason why Paul uses ABBA
              and not PATER. I thought Rick claimed that he: "did
              not mean to say that Abba was a Greek word."
              Apparently he does think Abba is Greek since Paul
              learned to use this word "due to the influence of
              Greek Culture and Classic Greek Literature in his
              upbringing." As Rick says: "These are the facts". Now
              how can anyone argue with that rationale and logic?

              BTW nice work on the Hort links.


              Best regards,
              John N. Lupia, III



              John N. Lupia, III
              Beachwood, New Jersey 08722 USA
              Fax: (732) 349-3910
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
              God Bless America



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