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Re: [Synoptic-L] Reconstructions of the original Ending of Mark

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  • Mark Goodacre
    ... I suppose the difficulty, though, is whether or not one thinks Matthew and Luke are independent here. If they are independent, there are some hints of
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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      On 18 February 2011 10:47, Graham Budd <graham.budd@...> wrote:

      > I suppose one might look for a "triple" tradition remnant in Luke and
      > Matthew, of which there seems little trace.  On the other hand, Luke
      > seems so thoroughly to have suppressed the Galilee appearance
      > tradition that perhaps this is to be expected anyway.

      I suppose the difficulty, though, is whether or not one thinks Matthew
      and Luke are independent here. If they are independent, there are
      some hints of material they could have taken over from a lost ending
      of Mark, especially Matt. 28.19 // Luke 24.47 (in his name / all the
      nations), but if one thinks that Luke has contacted with Matthew, he
      has simply recast Matthew's Great Commission.

      I agree about the suppressing of the Galilee appearance tradition in
      Luke and I've always found it fascinating. I wonder if it is largely
      because of the need for narrative segue to Acts with its big Jerusalem
      opening? Since our earliest record, in Gal. 1-2, places Peter and
      James in Jerusalem, perhaps Luke also had history on his side.

      Cheers
      Mark
      --
      Mark Goodacre
      Duke University
      Department of Religion
      Gray Building / Box 90964
      Durham, NC 27708-0964    USA
      Phone: 919-660-3503        Fax: 919-660-3530

      http://www.markgoodacre.org
    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
      ... Yes, there is the history thing. But also here Luke agrees in a number of big issues (and some smaller ones) with John. If Luke has been influence by
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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        Mark Goodacre wrote:

        > I agree about the suppressing of the Galilee appearance tradition in Luke
        > and I've always found it fascinating. I wonder if it is largely because
        > of the need for narrative segue to Acts with its big Jerusalem opening?
        > Since our earliest record, in Gal. 1-2, places Peter and James in
        > Jerusalem, perhaps Luke also had history on his side.

        Yes, there is the history thing. But also here Luke agrees in a number of big issues (and some smaller ones) with John. If Luke has been influence by John, that explains the move toward Jerusalem as the locus of post-resurrection activity.



        Mark A. Matson
        Academic Dean
        Milligan College
        423-461-8720
        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
      • Graham Budd
        Presumably it would be asking a bit much of the apostles to have been able to scurry up to Galilee in time to make it for a third day resurrection appearance!
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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          Presumably it would be asking a bit much of the apostles to have been
          able to scurry up to Galilee in time to make it for a third day
          resurrection appearance!

          I find the appearance to Simon/Peter/Cephas the most remarkable part
          of all this - why doesn't such an appearance make it into the synoptic
          tradition? I have Rupert Annand's entertaining paper from 1958 in
          front of me where he argues that the Emmaus dialogue was in fact an
          original appearance to Simon, based partly on Codex Bezae, Origen,
          Tertullian and the Longer Ending of Mark, which seems to report that
          Jesus appears to "two of them" who reported it to "the rest".
          (Origen: "And in Luke's Gospel, when Simon and Cleopas were talking to
          one
          another about all that had happened to them, Jesus drew near to them
          and went with them; and their eyes were holden that they should not
          know him."). He also points out that Luke has a sort of subtle clue
          about being a corrective to the Galilee story - "As they approached
          the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were
          going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it
          is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with
          them." As if he were going farther - to Galilee?


          Graham





          On 18 feb 2011, at 17.21, Mark Goodacre wrote:

          > On 18 February 2011 10:47, Graham Budd <graham.budd@...> wrote:
          >
          > > I suppose one might look for a "triple" tradition remnant in Luke
          > and
          > > Matthew, of which there seems little trace. On the other hand, Luke
          > > seems so thoroughly to have suppressed the Galilee appearance
          > > tradition that perhaps this is to be expected anyway.
          >
          > I suppose the difficulty, though, is whether or not one thinks Matthew
          > and Luke are independent here. If they are independent, there are
          > some hints of material they could have taken over from a lost ending
          > of Mark, especially Matt. 28.19 // Luke 24.47 (in his name / all the
          > nations), but if one thinks that Luke has contacted with Matthew, he
          > has simply recast Matthew's Great Commission.
          >
          > I agree about the suppressing of the Galilee appearance tradition in
          > Luke and I've always found it fascinating. I wonder if it is largely
          > because of the need for narrative segue to Acts with its big Jerusalem
          > opening? Since our earliest record, in Gal. 1-2, places Peter and
          > James in Jerusalem, perhaps Luke also had history on his side.
          >
          > Cheers
          > Mark
          > --
          > Mark Goodacre
          > Duke University
          > Department of Religion
          > Gray Building / Box 90964
          > Durham, NC 27708-0964 USA
          > Phone: 919-660-3503 Fax: 919-660-3530
          >
          > http://www.markgoodacre.org
          >
          >
        • Wieland Willker
          You are getting off topic. ;-) My question was if you know of any other attempts to reconstruct an ending of Mark, besides the two I mentioned. Best wishes
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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            You are getting off topic. ;-)
            My question was if you know of any other attempts to
            reconstruct an ending of Mark, besides the two I mentioned.


            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            --------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
          • Matson, Mark (Academic)
            But you spoke of the true ending of Mark, not reconstructions (or, better, constructions0. Just saying.... Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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              But you spoke of the "true ending of Mark," not reconstructions (or, better, constructions0. Just saying....

              Mark A. Matson
              Academic Dean
              Milligan College
              423-461-8720
              http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              > Of Wieland Willker
              > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 12:48 PM
              > To: Synoptic-L
              > Subject: [Synoptic-L] Re: Reconstructions of the original Ending of Mark
              >
              > You are getting off topic. ;-)
              > My question was if you know of any other attempts to reconstruct an ending
              > of Mark, besides the two I mentioned.
              >
              >
              > Best wishes
              > Wieland
              > <><
              > --------------------------
              > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
              > Textcritical commentary:
              > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Chuck Jones
              It s worth noting that Mk 16:1-8 does not contain a resurrection appearance, but rather predicts appearances will occur later in Galilee.  This cannot, of
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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                It's worth noting that Mk 16:1-8 does not contain a resurrection appearance, but rather predicts appearances will occur later in Galilee.  This cannot, of course, be reconciled with the third-day appearance legends in Mt, Lk and Jn.

                Rev. Chuck JonesAtlanta, Georgia



                --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Graham Budd <graham.budd@...> wrote:

                From: Graham Budd <graham.budd@...>
                Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Reconstructions of the original Ending of Mark
                To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 12:17 PM

                Presumably it would be asking a bit much of the apostles to have been 
                able to scurry up to Galilee in time to make it for  a third day 
                resurrection appearance!

                I find the appearance to Simon/Peter/Cephas the most remarkable part 
                of all this - why doesn't such an appearance make it into the synoptic 
                tradition? I have Rupert Annand's entertaining paper from 1958 in 
                front of me where he argues that the Emmaus dialogue was in fact an 
                original appearance to Simon, based partly on Codex Bezae, Origen, 
                Tertullian and the Longer Ending of Mark, which seems to report that 
                Jesus appears to "two of them" who reported it to "the rest".   
                (Origen: "And in Luke's Gospel, when Simon and Cleopas were talking to 
                one
                another about all that had happened to them, Jesus drew near to them 
                and went with them; and their eyes were holden that they should not 
                know him.").  He also points out that Luke has a sort of subtle clue 
                about being a corrective to the Galilee story - "As they approached 
                the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were 
                going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it 
                is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with 
                them."  As if he were going farther - to Galilee?


                Graham








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Chuck Jones
                I concur with Mark that we have the original ending of Mk, which is at 16:8. Rev. Chuck JonesAtlanta, Georgia ... From: Matson, Mark (Academic)
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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                  I concur with Mark that we have the original ending of Mk, which is at 16:8.


                  Rev. Chuck JonesAtlanta, Georgia


                  --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Matson, Mark (Academic) <MAMatson@...> wrote:

                  From: Matson, Mark (Academic) <MAMatson@...>
                  Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] Re: Reconstructions of the original Ending of Mark
                  To: "Synoptic@yahoogroups.com" <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 1:32 PM

                  But you spoke of the "true ending of Mark," not reconstructions (or, better, constructions0. Just saying....



                  Mark A. Matson

                  Academic Dean

                  Milligan College

                  423-461-8720

                  http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm



                  > -----Original Message-----

                  > From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf

                  > Of Wieland Willker

                  > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 12:48 PM

                  > To: Synoptic-L

                  > Subject: [Synoptic-L] Re: Reconstructions of the original Ending of Mark

                  >

                  > You are getting off topic. ;-)

                  > My question was if you know of any other attempts to reconstruct an ending

                  > of Mark, besides the two I mentioned.

                  >

                  >

                  > Best wishes

                  > Wieland

                  > <><

                  > --------------------------

                  > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany

                  > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie

                  > Textcritical commentary:

                  > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > ------------------------------------

                  >

                  > Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links

                  >

                  >

                  >




























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jgibson000@comcast.net
                  ... Except that the prediction in Mark 16 is back grounded by Jesus passion predictions in which a third day theme has already been sounded out, no?
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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                    On 2/18/2011 12:36 PM, Chuck Jones wrote:
                    > It's worth noting that Mk 16:1-8 does not contain a resurrection appearance, but rather predicts appearances will occur later in Galilee. This cannot, of course, be reconciled with the third-day appearance legends in Mt, Lk and Jn.
                    >
                    Except that the prediction in Mark 16 is back grounded by Jesus "passion
                    predictions" in which a "third day" theme has already been sounded out, no?

                    Jeffrey

                    --
                    Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                    1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                    Chicago, Illinois
                    e-mail jgibson000@...
                  • Wieland Willker
                    Ok, for the nit-pickers I rephrase my question here: It is very improbable that there ever was anything original after 16:8 of the Gospel of Mark (published).
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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                      Ok, for the nit-pickers I rephrase my question here:

                      It is very improbable that there ever was anything original
                      after 16:8 of the Gospel of Mark (published).

                      Nevertheless, for the history of research it is interesting
                      that attempts have been made to find some longer, "original"
                      ending.

                      So far I know of two:

                      1. Harnack/Rohrbach, 1893/94: suggested that the original
                      ending was utilized in the ending of the Gospel of Peter and
                      that it then continued along the lines of Jo 21.

                      2. Eta Linnemann 1969 suggested that Mt 28:16-17 + Mk
                      16:15-20 was basically the original ending of Mk.


                      Do you know any other attempts like this?



                      Best wishes
                      Wieland
                      <><
                      --------------------------
                      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                      http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                      Textcritical commentary:
                      http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
                    • Jack Kilmon
                      ... From: Wieland Willker Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 7:47 AM To: Synoptic-L Subject: [Synoptic-L]
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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                        --------------------------------------------------
                        From: "Wieland Willker" <wie@...>
                        Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 7:47 AM
                        To: "Synoptic-L" <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: [Synoptic-L] Reconstructions of the original Ending of Mark

                        > It is very improbable that there ever was an original, true ending of the
                        > Gospel of Mark (published).
                        >
                        > Nevertheless, for the history of research it is interesting that attempts
                        > have been made to find this original ending.
                        >
                        > So far I know of two:
                        >
                        > 1. Harnack/Rohrbach, 1893/94: suggested that the original ending was
                        > utilized in the ending of the Gospel of Peter and that it then continued
                        > along the lines of Jo 21.
                        >
                        > 2. Eta Linnemann 1969 suggested that Mt 28:16-17 + Mk 16:15-20 was
                        > basically
                        > the original ending of Mk.
                        >
                        >
                        > Do you know any other attempts like this?
                        >
                        >
                        > Best wishes
                        > Wieland
                        > <><


                        Hi Wieland:

                        Here is my go at TWO possibilities for the ending of Mark. Firstly, even
                        though Mark's Greek is very noticeably that of an Aramaic speaker using a
                        second language and essentially "bad Greek," a Greek sentence did not end in
                        GAR and it is not the result of a Semitism. The syntax of the ending leads
                        one to expect further discourse in Galilee. On the second point there are
                        two possibilities:

                        1. The Matthean scribe, writing in the Syrian diaspora some 55 years after
                        Jesus was crucified, relies on Mark and uses Mark nearly in its entirety. If
                        the missing ending of Mark is considered, uses Mark IN its entirety. Why
                        would Matthew ignore the ending? If there was one. If Matthew does, in fact,
                        contain those parts of the ending of Mark that are missing, it should be
                        relatively easy to reconstruct the
                        ending of Mark from Matthew by extracting it from the resurrection
                        appearances in Matthew and retroverting them to Markan style. In that case,
                        the ending of Mark would have been:

                        Mark 16:9 And Jesus met them and said, "Peace be to you." (Mt. 28:9a)
                        Mark 16:10 And they went up to him and clasped his feet and bowed on the
                        ground before him (Mt. 28:9b)
                        Mark 16:11 Jesus said to them, "You need not be afraid." (Mt. 28:10)
                        Mark 16:12 Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee and they will see me
                        there. (Mt. 28:10)
                        Mark 16:13 And they went with great joy and ran to tell his disciples. (Mt.
                        28:8)
                        Mark 16:14 And the eleven disciple went to Galilee to the mountain to which
                        the Jews had directed them (Mt. 28:16)
                        Mark 16:15 And Jesus came up to them and said, "Go and preach the good news
                        to all the heathen. I will always be with you, to the end (Mt. 28:19

                        Ockham's Razor, in this case, say's that if Matthew copied Mark, the ending
                        of Mark is still imbedded in Matthew.

                        2. The second possibility, and I have mentioned it before, is that the 21st
                        chapter of John, first appearing in Codex Bezae but missing in all earlier
                        manuscripts, was originally the ending of Mark and "transplanted" in order
                        to soften and harmonize Johannine anti-markan rhetoric.


                        Mark anticipates a first resurrection appearance in Galilee and John 21
                        without the "third appearance" editorial insert at 21:14 is that first
                        appearance. In Mark, Peter denies Jesus three times (14:67-72). In John
                        (21:15-17), Peter affirms his love three times....the pro-Petrine redemption
                        anticipated in Mark. This completes what form critics have come to
                        recognize as Markan brackets (like the bracketed blind men at 8:22 and
                        10:46). In Mark, the shepherd is struck down and the sheep scattered. In
                        John 21 Peter becomes the new shepherd..completing another incomplete Markan
                        bracket. In Mark,
                        the first words spoken to a disciple are "follow me." In John 21 the LAST
                        words spoken are "follow me" (Jn 21:22) completing another Markan bracket.

                        If John 21 was originally the first resurrection appearance account of the
                        ending of Mark, Mark would become unified literarily if the appendage is
                        restored to Mark..less a few Johannine phrases. It does. As an Aramaicist,
                        I am, to the point of annoyance to some, the "follow the Aramaic" guy and
                        also find support in this from Burney. If John 21 was removed from Mark,
                        edited with a few Johannine signature phrases, we should see typically
                        Markan Aramaisms noted in Mark and John with none or little in Matthew and
                        Luke. I find this in Mark's frequent use of the historic present resulting
                        from Aramaic narrative participle also frequent in John 21. There is also
                        a connection between John and Mark's use of imperfects, the rare use of de
                        and frequent use of kai, the partitive APO in 21:10 used by Mark at 5:35,
                        6:43, 7:4 and 12:2.

                        shlama amek
                        Jack

                        Jack Kilmon
                        San Antonioo, TX
                      • Tony Buglass
                        Firstly, even though Mark s Greek is very noticeably that of an Aramaic speaker using a second language and essentially bad Greek, a Greek sentence did not
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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                          "Firstly, even
                          though Mark's Greek is very noticeably that of an Aramaic speaker using a
                          second language and essentially "bad Greek," a Greek sentence did not end in
                          GAR and it is not the result of a Semitism. The syntax of the ending leads
                          one to expect further discourse in Galilee."

                          Maurice Casey, in his recently published "Jesus of Nazareth - an independent historian's account of his life and teaching", argues that Mark is not simply missing the ending, but is an unfinished first draft. There are numerous places crying out for revision in the text. He thinks Mark was translating Aramaic sources as he went, and 14:28 and 16:7 indicate that he had every intention of adding a Galilean appearance, but never got that far. He argues that explanations of a missing end-sheet, while plausible to an extent, do not explain why there was only one copy, or if it was the original, why the author could not replace what had been lost. If it is true that this was a document which was not yet complete, and was awaiting revision when something happened to the author, that makes a degree of sense.

                          Cheers,
                          Rev Tony Buglass
                          Superintendent Minister
                          Calderdale Methodist Circuit

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Stephen Carlson
                          ... B. H. Streeter has a proposal on the lost ending of Mark in his FOUR GOSPELS, but it sounds very similar and perhaps even derivative of the above-listed
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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                            On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Wieland Willker <wie@...> wrote:

                            > Nevertheless, for the history of research it is interesting that attempts
                            > have been made to find this original ending.
                            >
                            > So far I know of two:
                            >
                            > 1. Harnack/Rohrbach, 1893/94: suggested that the original ending was
                            > utilized in the ending of the Gospel of Peter and that it then continued
                            > along the lines of Jo 21.
                            >
                            > 2. Eta Linnemann 1969 suggested that Mt 28:16-17 + Mk 16:15-20 was
                            > basically
                            > the original ending of Mk.
                            >
                            > Do you know any other attempts like this?
                            >
                            B. H. Streeter has a proposal on the lost ending of Mark in his FOUR
                            GOSPELS, but it sounds very similar and perhaps even derivative of the
                            above-listed option 1.

                            Stephen
                            --
                            Stephen C. Carlson
                            Graduate Program in Religion
                            Duke University


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jeff Peterson
                            In his second book on the Gospels (and his third to treat the question), Austin Farrer suggested that the Matthaean conclusion expands on a single, lost
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 18, 2011
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                              In his second book on the Gospels (and his third to treat the
                              question), Austin Farrer suggested that the Matthaean conclusion expands on
                              "a single, lost sentence," along the lines of "But Jesus sent forth his
                              disciples to preach the Gospel among all nations" (*St Matthew and St Mark*,
                              1954, p. 157). I think he should have stayed with his position in his
                              earlier *Glass of Vision* and *Study in St Mark*, viz., 16:8 is the
                              conclusion as Mark wrote it.

                              Jeff Peterson
                              Austin Graduate School of Theology
                              Austin, TX

                              On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --------------------------------------------------
                              > From: "Wieland Willker" <wie@...>
                              >
                              > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 7:47 AM
                              > To: "Synoptic-L" <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Subject: [Synoptic-L] Reconstructions of the original Ending of Mark
                              >
                              >
                              > > It is very improbable that there ever was an original, true ending of the
                              > > Gospel of Mark (published).
                              > >
                              > > Nevertheless, for the history of research it is interesting that attempts
                              > > have been made to find this original ending.
                              > >
                              > > So far I know of two:
                              > >
                              > > 1. Harnack/Rohrbach, 1893/94: suggested that the original ending was
                              > > utilized in the ending of the Gospel of Peter and that it then continued
                              > > along the lines of Jo 21.
                              > >
                              > > 2. Eta Linnemann 1969 suggested that Mt 28:16-17 + Mk 16:15-20 was
                              > > basically
                              > > the original ending of Mk.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Do you know any other attempts like this?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Best wishes
                              > > Wieland
                              > > <><
                              >
                              > Hi Wieland:
                              >
                              > Here is my go at TWO possibilities for the ending of Mark. Firstly, even
                              > though Mark's Greek is very noticeably that of an Aramaic speaker using a
                              > second language and essentially "bad Greek," a Greek sentence did not end
                              > in
                              > GAR and it is not the result of a Semitism. The syntax of the ending leads
                              > one to expect further discourse in Galilee. On the second point there are
                              > two possibilities:
                              >
                              > 1. The Matthean scribe, writing in the Syrian diaspora some 55 years after
                              > Jesus was crucified, relies on Mark and uses Mark nearly in its entirety.
                              > If
                              > the missing ending of Mark is considered, uses Mark IN its entirety. Why
                              > would Matthew ignore the ending? If there was one. If Matthew does, in
                              > fact,
                              > contain those parts of the ending of Mark that are missing, it should be
                              > relatively easy to reconstruct the
                              > ending of Mark from Matthew by extracting it from the resurrection
                              > appearances in Matthew and retroverting them to Markan style. In that case,
                              >
                              > the ending of Mark would have been:
                              >
                              > Mark 16:9 And Jesus met them and said, "Peace be to you." (Mt. 28:9a)
                              > Mark 16:10 And they went up to him and clasped his feet and bowed on the
                              > ground before him (Mt. 28:9b)
                              > Mark 16:11 Jesus said to them, "You need not be afraid." (Mt. 28:10)
                              > Mark 16:12 Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee and they will see me
                              > there. (Mt. 28:10)
                              > Mark 16:13 And they went with great joy and ran to tell his disciples. (Mt.
                              > 28:8)
                              > Mark 16:14 And the eleven disciple went to Galilee to the mountain to which
                              > the Jews had directed them (Mt. 28:16)
                              > Mark 16:15 And Jesus came up to them and said, "Go and preach the good news
                              > to all the heathen. I will always be with you, to the end (Mt. 28:19
                              >
                              > Ockham's Razor, in this case, say's that if Matthew copied Mark, the ending
                              >
                              > of Mark is still imbedded in Matthew.
                              >
                              > 2. The second possibility, and I have mentioned it before, is that the 21st
                              >
                              > chapter of John, first appearing in Codex Bezae but missing in all earlier
                              > manuscripts, was originally the ending of Mark and "transplanted" in order
                              > to soften and harmonize Johannine anti-markan rhetoric.
                              >
                              > Mark anticipates a first resurrection appearance in Galilee and John 21
                              > without the "third appearance" editorial insert at 21:14 is that first
                              > appearance. In Mark, Peter denies Jesus three times (14:67-72). In John
                              > (21:15-17), Peter affirms his love three times....the pro-Petrine
                              > redemption
                              > anticipated in Mark. This completes what form critics have come to
                              > recognize as Markan brackets (like the bracketed blind men at 8:22 and
                              > 10:46). In Mark, the shepherd is struck down and the sheep scattered. In
                              > John 21 Peter becomes the new shepherd..completing another incomplete
                              > Markan
                              > bracket. In Mark,
                              > the first words spoken to a disciple are "follow me." In John 21 the LAST
                              > words spoken are "follow me" (Jn 21:22) completing another Markan bracket.
                              >
                              > If John 21 was originally the first resurrection appearance account of the
                              > ending of Mark, Mark would become unified literarily if the appendage is
                              > restored to Mark..less a few Johannine phrases. It does. As an Aramaicist,
                              > I am, to the point of annoyance to some, the "follow the Aramaic" guy and
                              > also find support in this from Burney. If John 21 was removed from Mark,
                              > edited with a few Johannine signature phrases, we should see typically
                              > Markan Aramaisms noted in Mark and John with none or little in Matthew and
                              > Luke. I find this in Mark's frequent use of the historic present resulting
                              > from Aramaic narrative participle also frequent in John 21. There is also
                              > a connection between John and Mark's use of imperfects, the rare use of de
                              > and frequent use of kai, the partitive APO in 21:10 used by Mark at 5:35,
                              > 6:43, 7:4 and 12:2.
                              >
                              > shlama amek
                              > Jack
                              >
                              > Jack Kilmon
                              > San Antonioo, TX
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Graham E Budd
                              So, I have dug up: Schweizer, Mt 28:9-10 plus Mk 16-20 (Good News According to Mark: Eng. tr. 1970) Bartsch: Mt 28:2-5, 9-10 (Mark familiar with 1 Cor 15:3-7)
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 19, 2011
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                                So, I have dug up:

                                Schweizer, Mt 28:9-10 plus Mk 16-20 (Good News According to Mark: Eng.
                                tr. 1970)
                                Bartsch: Mt 28:2-5, 9-10 (Mark familiar with 1 Cor 15:3-7) (TZ 1971)
                                Farmer: most of 16:9-20 was the original.
                                Osborne: Mt 28:9-10 (Resurrection Narratives), along with Trompf
                                Haefner: Acts 1:13-14 links Mark 16:8 to Acts 3-4
                                Burkett: has reconstructed proto-Mark A and proto-Mark B endings;
                                Schmithals: Like Linnemann's, but his source also contained
                                appearances to Peter (transposed to the Tranfiguration) and to the
                                Twelve, which he moved to 3:13-19.

                                Apparently Bartsch, Ursprungliche SchluB der Leidensgeschichte has more in!
                                (in L'évangile selon Marc, pp 411-433).

                                Graham

                                Quoting Wieland Willker <wie@...>:

                                > Ok, for the nit-pickers I rephrase my question here:
                                >
                                > It is very improbable that there ever was anything original
                                > after 16:8 of the Gospel of Mark (published).
                                >
                                > Nevertheless, for the history of research it is interesting
                                > that attempts have been made to find some longer, "original"
                                > ending.
                                >
                                > So far I know of two:
                                >
                                > 1. Harnack/Rohrbach, 1893/94: suggested that the original
                                > ending was utilized in the ending of the Gospel of Peter and
                                > that it then continued along the lines of Jo 21.
                                >
                                > 2. Eta Linnemann 1969 suggested that Mt 28:16-17 + Mk
                                > 16:15-20 was basically the original ending of Mk.
                                >
                                >
                                > Do you know any other attempts like this?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Best wishes
                                > Wieland
                                > <><
                                > --------------------------
                                > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                > Textcritical commentary:
                                > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • ddcanne@windstream.net
                                If Mark is seen as literature, separated from the other gospels and fixed at just after the first Jewish Roman War, the ending (16:8) seems the best way it
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 19, 2011
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                                  If Mark is seen as literature, separated from the other gospels and fixed at just after the first Jewish Roman War, the ending (16:8) seems the best way it could have been ended. It points to new hope, new possibilities. There is really no compelling reason it should have ended with appearance narratives. "God is salvation." I see the other gospel endings as "requirements" for the new religion, "apologetics." (One finds reason for this need implied in Matthew 27:64-66.)

                                  Dennis Dean Carpenter
                                  Dahlonega, Ga.


                                  ---- Jeff Peterson <peterson@...> wrote:
                                  > In his second book on the Gospels (and his third to treat the
                                  > question), Austin Farrer suggested that the Matthaean conclusion expands on
                                  > "a single, lost sentence," along the lines of "But Jesus sent forth his
                                  > disciples to preach the Gospel among all nations" (*St Matthew and St Mark*,
                                  > 1954, p. 157). I think he should have stayed with his position in his
                                  > earlier *Glass of Vision* and *Study in St Mark*, viz., 16:8 is the
                                  > conclusion as Mark wrote it.
                                  >
                                  > Jeff Peterson
                                  > Austin Graduate School of Theology
                                  > Austin, TX
                                  >
                                • Graham E Budd
                                  A few more: Probyn (1925): Acts 1:6-11 is a Lucan redaction of the end of Mark. Goodspeed: like Schweizer Rendel Harris: ends for they were afraid of the
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 19, 2011
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                                    A few more:

                                    Probyn (1925): Acts 1:6-11 is a Lucan redaction of the end of Mark.
                                    Goodspeed: like Schweizer
                                    Rendel Harris: ends "for they were afraid of the Jews". (!)
                                    Moule, ?St Mark XVI.8 Once More,? NTS 2 (1955) 58?59 has "kai euthus
                                    legousin tois mathhtais peri pantwn toutwn"
                                    Bacon: Some account of the rallying of the disciples in Galilee by Jesus.
                                    Streeter: Like John 21
                                    Kevin (1926, JBL): Complex argument that Mark ran on into John 21-like
                                    appearances followed by something like the beginning of Acts, that was
                                    later summarised by the Longer Ending.

                                    GB


                                    Quoting Graham E Budd <graham.budd@...>:

                                    > So, I have dug up:
                                    >
                                    > Schweizer, Mt 28:9-10 plus Mk 16-20 (Good News According to Mark: Eng.
                                    > tr. 1970)
                                    > Bartsch: Mt 28:2-5, 9-10 (Mark familiar with 1 Cor 15:3-7) (TZ 1971)
                                    > Farmer: most of 16:9-20 was the original.
                                    > Osborne: Mt 28:9-10 (Resurrection Narratives), along with Trompf
                                    > Haefner: Acts 1:13-14 links Mark 16:8 to Acts 3-4
                                    > Burkett: has reconstructed proto-Mark A and proto-Mark B endings;
                                    > Schmithals: Like Linnemann's, but his source also contained
                                    > appearances to Peter (transposed to the Tranfiguration) and to the
                                    > Twelve, which he moved to 3:13-19.
                                    >
                                    > Apparently Bartsch, Ursprungliche SchluB der Leidensgeschichte has more in!
                                    > (in L'évangile selon Marc, pp 411-433).
                                    >
                                    > Graham
                                    >
                                    > Quoting Wieland Willker <wie@...>:
                                    >
                                    >> Ok, for the nit-pickers I rephrase my question here:
                                    >>
                                    >> It is very improbable that there ever was anything original
                                    >> after 16:8 of the Gospel of Mark (published).
                                    >>
                                    >> Nevertheless, for the history of research it is interesting
                                    >> that attempts have been made to find some longer, "original"
                                    >> ending.
                                    >>
                                    >> So far I know of two:
                                    >>
                                    >> 1. Harnack/Rohrbach, 1893/94: suggested that the original
                                    >> ending was utilized in the ending of the Gospel of Peter and
                                    >> that it then continued along the lines of Jo 21.
                                    >>
                                    >> 2. Eta Linnemann 1969 suggested that Mt 28:16-17 + Mk
                                    >> 16:15-20 was basically the original ending of Mk.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> Do you know any other attempts like this?
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> Best wishes
                                    >> Wieland
                                    >> <><
                                    >> --------------------------
                                    >> Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                    >> http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                    >> Textcritical commentary:
                                    >> http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Wieland Willker
                                    Wow, Graham, that s great stuff! Thank you! Didn t know about the Harris quote. Interesting suggestion! I will look all these up for the commentary. Of
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 19, 2011
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                                      Wow, Graham, that's great stuff!
                                      Thank you!
                                      Didn't know about the Harris quote. Interesting suggestion!

                                      I will look all these up for the commentary.
                                      Of learning there is no end ...


                                      Btw, the book "Side-lights on New Testament research" from
                                      Rendel Harris might be a good addition to archive.org. So if
                                      someone has it within reach ...

                                      Thanks all!

                                      Best wishes
                                      Wieland
                                      <><
                                      --------------------------
                                      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                      http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                      Textcritical commentary:
                                      http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
                                    • Mark Goodacre
                                      ... Agreed -- some interesting stuff there! ... It s available in toto on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=LuTvz7V3YkUC Is this one of those that
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 19, 2011
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                                        On 19 February 2011 10:56, Wieland Willker <wie@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Wow, Graham, that's great stuff!
                                        > Thank you!
                                        > Didn't know about the Harris quote. Interesting suggestion!

                                        Agreed -- some interesting stuff there!

                                        > Btw, the book "Side-lights on New Testament research" from
                                        > Rendel Harris might be a good addition to archive.org. So if
                                        > someone has it within reach ...

                                        It's available in toto on Google Books:

                                        http://books.google.com/books?id=LuTvz7V3YkUC

                                        Is this one of those that is locked down to users outside the US? If
                                        so, I could send you a PDF.

                                        Cheers
                                        Markl
                                        >
                                        > Thanks all!
                                        >
                                        > Best wishes
                                        > Wieland
                                        > <><
                                        > --------------------------
                                        > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                        > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                        > Textcritical commentary:
                                        > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
                                        >
                                        >


                                        --
                                        Mark Goodacre
                                        Duke University
                                        Department of Religion
                                        Gray Building / Box 90964
                                        Durham, NC 27708-0964    USA
                                        Phone: 919-660-3503        Fax: 919-660-3530

                                        http://www.markgoodacre.org
                                      • Wieland Willker
                                        ... Schmithals is cool. He thinks that there was no ending, but that Mk added Mk 14:28 and 16:7 to remind the readers of something like 1Co 15:5. The two
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 23, 2011
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                                          Graham E Budd wrote:
                                          > Schmithals: Like Linnemann's, but his source also contained
                                          > appearances to Peter (transposed to the Tranfiguration) and to
                                          > the Twelve, which he moved to 3:13-19.


                                          Schmithals is cool. He thinks that there was no ending, but that Mk added Mk
                                          14:28 and 16:7 to remind the readers of something like 1Co 15:5. The two
                                          verses are superfluous if the appearances to Peter and the Twelve are
                                          actually told at the end of the Gospel. Compare:
                                          Mark 14:28 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee."
                                          Mark 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you
                                          to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you."

                                          Schmithals continues with the idea that Mk nevertheless knew the stories
                                          about Jesus appearance to Peter and the Twelve from his source, but inserted
                                          them in a pre-Easter context.
                                          Peter: Mk 9:2-8 (the transfiguration), the Twelve: Mk 3:13-19 (the
                                          appointment of the disciples).
                                          He further knew Mk 16:15-20 from his source! Thus, according to Schmithals
                                          the complete ending in Mark's *source* was:
                                          16:1-6, 8 + 9:2-8a + 3:13-19 + 16:15-20 (not literally, but the basic
                                          content).


                                          Best wishes
                                          Wieland
                                          <><
                                          --------------------------
                                          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                          http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                          Textcritical commentary:
                                          http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
                                        • Chuck Jones
                                          Wieland, If Schmithals is correct, then his analysis begs the question, Why would Mk do all this surgery to his source? Here s an obvious answer:  Mk knew
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 23, 2011
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                                            Wieland,

                                            If Schmithals is correct, then his analysis begs the question, Why would Mk do all this surgery to his source?

                                            Here's an obvious answer:  Mk knew that the third-day Jerusalem appearance legends were just that, and that the appearances of Jesus in fact occurred in Galilee, some time after Jesus' death.  He walks a redactical tightrope by including the (legendary, I believe) empty tomb story without an appearance of Jesus taking place!
                                            Rev. Chuck Jones
                                            Atlanta, Georgia
                                            ___________________

                                            Schmithals is cool. He thinks that there was no ending, but that Mk added Mk

                                            14:28 and 16:7 to remind the readers of something like 1Co 15:5. The two

                                            verses are superfluous if the appearances to Peter and the Twelve are

                                            actually told at the end of the Gospel. Compare:

                                            Mark 14:28 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee."

                                            Mark 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you

                                            to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you."



                                            Schmithals continues with the idea that Mk nevertheless knew the stories

                                            about Jesus appearance to Peter and the Twelve from his source, but inserted

                                            them in a pre-Easter context.

                                            Peter: Mk 9:2-8 (the transfiguration), the Twelve: Mk 3:13-19 (the

                                            appointment of the disciples).

                                            He further knew Mk 16:15-20 from his source! Thus, according to Schmithals

                                            the complete ending in Mark's *source* was:

                                            16:1-6, 8 + 9:2-8a + 3:13-19 + 16:15-20 (not literally, but the basic

                                            content).



                                            Best wishes

                                            Wieland

                                            <><

                                            --------------------------

                                            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany

                                            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie

                                            Textcritical commentary:

                                            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/






























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