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Isaiah 26:2

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  • Dennis Goffin
    To:- Jack Kilmon Jack, I am investigating the term ‘nazwraios’ translated as Nazarene. My guess is that the Hebrew or Aramaic word rather carries the
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 6, 2011
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      To:- Jack Kilmon
      Jack,
      I am investigating the term ‘nazwraios’ translated as Nazarene. My guess is that the Hebrew or Aramaic word rather carries the meaning ‘consecrated to God’ or ‘sacred initiate’ and has nothing to do with Nazareth, being closer to Nazarite. This is how the Mandaeans use what would seem to be a cognate expression. I read today that the above verse, in the Aramaic version of Isaiah, uses a similar word to mean ‘righteous’ and as you are an Aramaic specialist, I thought that perhaps you could throw some light on the matter. I hope you don’t mind my asking you.
      Kind Regards,
      Dennis
      ----------
      Dennis Goffin
      Chorleywood UK

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bob Schacht
      ... I m not Jack, but I d suggest that you search the XTalk archives, as this matter has been discussed there at length in previous years.
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 6, 2011
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        At 03:43 AM 1/6/2011, Dennis Goffin wrote:
        >To:- Jack Kilmon
        >Jack,
        > I am investigating the term
        > ‘nazwraios’ translated as Nazarene. My
        > guess is that the Hebrew or Aramaic word rather
        > carries the meaning ‘consecrated to God’ or
        > ‘sacred initiate’ and has nothing to do
        > with Nazareth, being closer to Nazarite. This
        > is how the Mandaeans use what would seem to be
        > a cognate expression. I read today that the
        > above verse, in the Aramaic version of Isaiah,
        > uses a similar word to mean ‘righteous’ and
        > as you are an Aramaic specialist, I thought
        > that perhaps you could throw some light on the
        > matter. I hope you don’t mind my asking you.

        I'm not Jack, but I'd suggest that you search the
        XTalk archives, as this matter has been discussed
        there at length in previous years.
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/crosstalk2/messages

        Bob Schacht
        Northern Arizona University

        >Kind Regards,
        >Dennis
        >----------
        >Dennis Goffin
        >Chorleywood UK
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Dennis Goffin Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 4:43 AM To: Subject: [Synoptic-L] Isaiah 26:2
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 7, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          --------------------------------------------------
          From: "Dennis Goffin" <d.goffin@...>
          Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 4:43 AM
          To: <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [Synoptic-L] Isaiah 26:2

          > To:- Jack Kilmon
          > Jack,
          > I am investigating the term ‘nazwraios’ translated as Nazarene. My
          > guess is that the Hebrew or Aramaic word rather carries the meaning
          > ‘consecrated to God’ or ‘sacred initiate’ and has nothing to do with
          > Nazareth, being closer to Nazarite. This is how the Mandaeans use what
          > would seem to be a cognate expression. I read today that the above verse,
          > in the Aramaic version of Isaiah, uses a similar word to mean ‘righteous’
          > and as you are an Aramaic specialist, I thought that perhaps you could
          > throw some light on the matter. I hope you don’t mind my asking you.
          > Kind Regards,
          > Dennis
          > ----------
          > Dennis Goffin
          > Chorleywood UK

          Hi Dennis:

          I'm sorry it took me a while to get to this. At 70 years I have decided to
          no longer be the "informed amateur" of these forums and am working on my
          Ph.D. It turns out to be a lot of work. :) Let us deal with the "Nazirite"
          connection first.

          I think the Church "Fathers" were confused over the distinctions between
          נזיר Nazirites ναζιραῖοι and Nazarene Ναζωραῖος where the Matthean author
          flipped a zeta for a tsade (Ναζαρὲτ) to conform to "Nazareth" (which was
          spelled with the tsade) to force the Judges 13:5 prophecy ὅτι ἰδοὺ σὺ ἐν
          γαστρὶ ἔχεις καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν καὶ σίδηρος οὐκ ἀναβήσεται ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ
          ὅτι ναζιρ θεοῦ
          ἔσται τὸ παιδάριον ἀπὸ τῆς κοιλίας καὶ αὐτὸς ἄρξεται τοῦ σῶσαι τὸν Ισραηλ ἐκ
          χειρὸς Φυλιστιιμ "For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no
          razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
          from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the
          Philistines." Matthew used the LXX because he sucked at Hebrew. Even Bible
          translators get confused since most translations spell it NazArite with an A
          instead of NazIrite with the proper I (the zayin before the yod in "nazyr"
          נזיר is with an hiriq gadhol).

          I don't think we will ever know for certain what the origin of "Nazarenes"
          was. I think it most likely arose from Isaiah 11:1 "netser" (branch)
          because it is "netseraya" in Aramaic which perfectly
          distills to Greek transliteration as Ναζωραῖος, Ναζωραίων Greek doesn't have
          a tsade). We must look at the words of Isaiah 11:1 wa'yatsah choter mygeza
          yeeshay weNETSER meeshereshyaw yeeparah where the "netser" (branch) of Jesse
          Ιεσσαι gave rise to both the Netseraya/NAZORAIOS/Nazarenes and the
          Yeeshaya/IESSAIAOI/Jesseans and I find this in Epiphanius Panarion 29
          5.1-4 "For a short time they were given the name Iessaians before the
          disciples in Antioch began to be called Christians (this was around 60 CE
          Acts 11:26 jk ) and they were called Iessaians because of Jesse, it seems to
          me, since David was from Jesse." So the Nazarenes were equated with the
          Jessians making the case that both of these designations, had the same
          origin in Isaiah. Also Nilus, Bishop of Ancyra, in "de monastica
          exercitatione, 3 This connection is also made by E. A. Abbott "The
          Beginning" (Vol 2) in "The Fourfold Gospel" (Cambridge 1914) p. 318. I
          accept it since it is the most
          logical connection and Ναζωραῖος perfectly fits the Greek transliteration
          with the addition of the noun ending. If a group was founded by someone
          considered by his followers as the "Netser
          of Jesse," I can see them being called the "branchers" (Netseraya/Nazarenes)
          and "Jessians" (Yeeshaya/Iessaioi).

          That's my take, Dennis.

          Best regards and shlama amek

          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          San Antonio, TX
        • Dennis Goffin
          Jack, Please accept the thanks of an 84 year old for taking the time to answer my query and good luck with the Ph.D ! Dennis From: Jack Kilmon Sent: Friday,
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 7, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Jack,
            Please accept the thanks of an 84 year old for taking the time to answer my query and good luck with the Ph.D !
            Dennis

            From: Jack Kilmon
            Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 2:43 PM
            To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Isaiah 26:2




            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "Dennis Goffin" <mailto:d.goffin%40hotmail.co.uk>
            Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 4:43 AM
            To: <mailto:Synoptic%40yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [Synoptic-L] Isaiah 26:2

            > To:- Jack Kilmon
            > Jack,
            > I am investigating the term ‘nazwraios’ translated as Nazarene. My
            > guess is that the Hebrew or Aramaic word rather carries the meaning
            > ‘consecrated to God’ or ‘sacred initiate’ and has nothing to do with
            > Nazareth, being closer to Nazarite. This is how the Mandaeans use what
            > would seem to be a cognate expression. I read today that the above verse,
            > in the Aramaic version of Isaiah, uses a similar word to mean ‘righteous’
            > and as you are an Aramaic specialist, I thought that perhaps you could
            > throw some light on the matter. I hope you don’t mind my asking you.
            > Kind Regards,
            > Dennis
            > ----------
            > Dennis Goffin
            > Chorleywood UK

            Hi Dennis:

            I'm sorry it took me a while to get to this. At 70 years I have decided to
            no longer be the "informed amateur" of these forums and am working on my
            Ph.D. It turns out to be a lot of work. :) Let us deal with the "Nazirite"
            connection first.

            I think the Church "Fathers" were confused over the distinctions between
            נזיר Nazirites ναζιραῖοι and Nazarene Ναζωραῖος where the Matthean author
            flipped a zeta for a tsade (Ναζαρὲτ) to conform to "Nazareth" (which was
            spelled with the tsade) to force the Judges 13:5 prophecy ὅτι ἰδοὺ σὺ ἐν
            γαστρὶ ἔχεις καὶ τέξῃ υἱόν καὶ σίδηρος οὐκ ἀναβήσεται ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ
            ὅτι ναζιρ θεοῦ
            ἔσται τὸ παιδάριον ἀπὸ τῆς κοιλίας καὶ αὐτὸς ἄρξεται τοῦ σῶσαι τὸν Ισραηλ ἐκ
            χειρὸς Φυλιστιιμ "For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no
            razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
            from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the
            Philistines." Matthew used the LXX because he sucked at Hebrew. Even Bible
            translators get confused since most translations spell it NazArite with an A
            instead of NazIrite with the proper I (the zayin before the yod in "nazyr"
            נזיר is with an hiriq gadhol).

            I don't think we will ever know for certain what the origin of "Nazarenes"
            was. I think it most likely arose from Isaiah 11:1 "netser" (branch)
            because it is "netseraya" in Aramaic which perfectly
            distills to Greek transliteration as Ναζωραῖος, Ναζωραίων Greek doesn't have
            a tsade). We must look at the words of Isaiah 11:1 wa'yatsah choter mygeza
            yeeshay weNETSER meeshereshyaw yeeparah where the "netser" (branch) of Jesse
            Ιεσσαι gave rise to both the Netseraya/NAZORAIOS/Nazarenes and the
            Yeeshaya/IESSAIAOI/Jesseans and I find this in Epiphanius Panarion 29
            5.1-4 "For a short time they were given the name Iessaians before the
            disciples in Antioch began to be called Christians (this was around 60 CE
            Acts 11:26 jk ) and they were called Iessaians because of Jesse, it seems to
            me, since David was from Jesse." So the Nazarenes were equated with the
            Jessians making the case that both of these designations, had the same
            origin in Isaiah. Also Nilus, Bishop of Ancyra, in "de monastica
            exercitatione, 3 This connection is also made by E. A. Abbott "The
            Beginning" (Vol 2) in "The Fourfold Gospel" (Cambridge 1914) p. 318. I
            accept it since it is the most
            logical connection and Ναζωραῖος perfectly fits the Greek transliteration
            with the addition of the noun ending. If a group was founded by someone
            considered by his followers as the "Netser
            of Jesse," I can see them being called the "branchers" (Netseraya/Nazarenes)
            and "Jessians" (Yeeshaya/Iessaioi).

            That's my take, Dennis.

            Best regards and shlama amek

            Jack

            Jack Kilmon
            San Antonio, TX






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