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Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: Source Theories and the HHB Concordance

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  • David Mealand
    Yes I think it would be nice to check for homogeneity but it could probably only be done on some of the larger blocks. This is partly because I like the
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 4, 2010
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      Yes I think it would be nice to check for homogeneity
      but it could probably only be done on some of the larger blocks.
      This is partly because I like the reassurance partitioning
      provides, partly I would really like to separate material
      of different genre, but I don't think the HHB data are amenable
      to that. I note though that DG does quite rightly pay attention to
      genre at the interpretative stage.

      I have a slightly different take on the end conclusions
      from using the 50 more frequent words (noting the
      absence of the most frequent from HHB) and using a
      different method to get two dimensional displays
      of the relation between the 19 groups, but I think that
      DG's analysis definitely deserves attention.

      David M.



      ---------
      David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


      --
      The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
      Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
    • Ronald Price
      ... David, It would be interesting to know your slightly different take on the end conclusions. Ron Price, Derbyshire, UK http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 4, 2010
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        David Mealand wrote:

        > I have a slightly different take on the end conclusions
        > from using the 50 more frequent words (noting the
        > absence of the most frequent from HHB) and using a
        > different method to get two dimensional displays
        > of the relation between the 19 groups .....

        David,

        It would be interesting to know your slightly different take on the end
        conclusions.

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK

        http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dave
        Bob: I m not David, but within-group consistency, as a statistical expression, generally refers to a statistical measure of variability, relative to sample
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 4, 2010
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          Bob: I'm not David, but "within-group consistency," as a statistical
          expression, generally refers to a statistical measure of variability,
          relative to sample size.



          Dave G: Yes, but I guess my point was why do we want to know this?



          BRUCE: I'm not Dave either, but I seem to recognize the ANOVA (analysis of
          variance) contrast between within-sample and between-sample. No?



          Dave G: Yes. So we would want to know this for doing ANOVA. And, David M. reminds me that he is looking at using CA.



          David M: I would really like to separate material
          of different genre, but I don't think the HHB data are amenable
          to that.



          Dave G: If the time is invested in building the tables of data counts, there are undoubtedly other investigations that could be conducted using the method I employed. Ron and I did one on his categories at one point, for example. As it stands, I think the design may really only be sufficient for distinguishing between the 6 basic triangle hypotheses. I believe the study eliminates 5 of them, leaving only Mark first, Matthew second, and Luke third as a possibility. There is a suggestion within the result of complexity beyond that, but the design does not allow for definite statements beyond this. If data tables were constructed tailored for testing more complex hypotheses, this could perhaps be done, although at some point the text samples would get too small to get significant results in this way.



          David Gentile

          Riverside, IL


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Mealand
          In reply to Ron The output from Correspondence Analysis on the HHB data tallies with almost all of the correlations found by David G s method. It does, though,
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 4, 2010
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            In reply to Ron

            The output from Correspondence Analysis
            on the HHB data tallies with almost
            all of the correlations found by David G's method.
            It does, though, place 102 still quite close to the
            202, 201, 200 group and not entirely on its own.

            The main item I note is that 202 i.e.the set of
            the same words in passages paralleled in
            Matthew and Luke is in a distinct place
            on the far right of my plot. It is not separate
            from its group, but it is the furthest out.

            At one time I thought this might be due
            to this being mainly sayings, but 201 and 102
            are also mainly sayings and not so far out.
            Also the contrast at the opposite end is with
            sets of Markan words not favoured by Matthew
            or Luke (or either), it seems not to be due to a
            narrative versus sayings contrast, as many narrative
            passages of Mark such as those in 222 are
            much closer to 202. So I don't think
            the distinct location of 202 due to genre
            in this case.

            As 202 is further out than 200 (Matthew solo)
            I am inclined, on this and other grounds,
            to think it a separate source used by
            Matthew (and by Luke).

            David M.


            ---------
            David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


            --
            The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
            Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
          • David Mealand
            One clarification: I agree that there is a genre element in the contrast between the mainly Markan and the mainly Matt//Lk groups, but I don t think it is the
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 4, 2010
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              One clarification:

              I agree that there is a genre element
              in the contrast between the mainly Markan
              and the mainly Matt//Lk groups, but I don't think
              it is the only thing going on there.

              David M.


              ---------
              David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


              --
              The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
              Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
            • gentdave1
              David, My perfered interpretation of my results is that there is a saying source involved in there somewhere as well. So, on that point, we really don t
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 4, 2010
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                David,

                My perfered interpretation of my results is that there is a saying source involved in there somewhere as well. So, on that point, we really don't differ. And that may well be what your method is highlighting for us.

                I think my analysis presents a problem only for a pure 2SH where Luke makes no use of Matthew at all.

                Dave Gentile
                Riverside, IL
              • grig035
                ... source involved in there somewhere as well. So, on that point, we really don t differ. And that may well be what your method is highlighting for us. ...
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 23, 2010
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                  --- In Synoptic@yahoogroups.com, "gentdave1" <GentDave@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > David,
                  >
                  > My perfered interpretation of my results is that there is a saying
                  source involved in there somewhere as well. So, on that point, we really
                  don't differ. And that may well be what your method is highlighting for
                  us.
                  >
                  > I think my analysis presents a problem only for a pure 2SH where Luke
                  makes no use of Matthew at all.
                  >
                  > Dave Gentile
                  > Riverside, IL
                  >

                  As one who has been a grateful lurker here, and far too busy with the
                  holidays to participate as much as I would like, and not as much a
                  specialist as many others here, I want to thank those who applied
                  themselves to my query during these weeks. Much appreciated.

                  Ironically, as one who has generally felt comfortable with the
                  mainstream theory positing a "Q" ("quelle") document for the parallel
                  sayings in Matt./Luke, I've found that this discussion and Mr. Gentile's
                  persuasive stats have made me revisit some of my assumptions. Strictly
                  as devil's advocate (so to speak ;-)), instead of my coming at this as
                  one persuaded that a "Q" document is behind the parallel tradition, can
                  anyone here who is conversant with Mr. Gentile's stats use those stats
                  to persuade, for the sake of argument, a hypothetical "Q" skeptic that
                  however probable the occasional Luke consultation of Matt. now looks
                  with these new stats, there are still remaining indications that some
                  ur-document such as "Q" must still be part of the equation.

                  If so, please, what are those indications and how are they still
                  consistent with Mr. Gentile's findings?

                  Again, thanks for the avid discussion.

                  Geoffrey Riggs
                • GentDave@att.net
                  ...   I think you might get some discussion on this point. Most here, or at least the more vocal people feel Luke used Matthew in some way. Beyond that -
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 23, 2010
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                    > are [there] still remaining indications that some
                    > ur-document such as "Q" must still be part of the equation[?]
                    >
                    > If so, please, what are those indications and how are they still
                    > consistent with Mr. Gentile's findings?
                    >
                    > Again, thanks for the avid discussion.
                    >
                    > Geoffrey Riggs

                     
                    I think you might get some discussion on this point. Most here, or at least the more vocal people feel Luke used Matthew in some way. Beyond that - there is not a lot of agreement that I've noticed.
                     
                    Staying only with the statistical study, there is certainly room for and even hints of a saying source in the results. The problem is that genera could also be an explanation for these results. So the conclusion is that while the study can not demonstrate the need for a saying source, it certainly leaves room for one.
                     
                    Leaving the study, there are other arguments to make, most of which I'll leave to other people to make if they wish. But my own argument has been from Luke's behavior. Luke follows the wording of the sayings very closely. However, the order he follows not at all. It has been noted by some that the order of "Q" material in Luke and Matthew is correlated. However, if you take out the narrative parts of the hypothetical "Q" (which I suspect have a different history than the sayings), you find that the order of the sayings in Matthew and Luke do not correlate at all. This random scatter might make an argument for an oral source, but then the closeness of the wording might argue otherwise.
                     
                    If Luke uses Matthew and regards Matthew as a contemporary document, and not a historical one, then I find it odd that Luke quotes Matthew so precisely, as if he were preserving the words Jesus actually spoke. On the other hand, if Luke thought Matthew was an old historical source, then I think the way he rips it apart is odd. I would expect it to be treated more like he treats Mark.
                     
                    If, however, Luke worked from an un-ordered Matthian-themed list of sayings which he believed to be genuinely historical, then Luke's behavior makes perfect sense. From Luke's point of view, he has words actually spoken by Jesus, and he treats then with respect. On the other hand, as it is just a list with no intrinsic order, he feels free to place them where he wills for literary advantage.
                     
                    So, for me at least, a saying source is still part of the solution.
                     
                    Dave Gentile

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • grig035
                    ... least the more vocal people feel Luke used Matthew in some way. Beyond that - there is not a lot of agreement that I ve noticed. ... and even hints of a
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 23, 2010
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                      --- In Synoptic@yahoogroups.com, GentDave@... wrote:
                      >
                      > > are [there] still remaining indications that some
                      > > ur-document such as "Q" must still be part of the equation[?]
                      > >
                      > > If so, please, what are those indications and how are they still
                      > > consistent with Mr. Gentile's findings?
                      > >
                      > > Again, thanks for the avid discussion.
                      > >
                      > > Geoffrey Riggs
                      > >
                      >
                      > I think you might get some discussion on this point. Most here, or at
                      least the more vocal people feel Luke used Matthew in some way. Beyond
                      that - there is not a lot of agreement that I've noticed.
                      >
                      > Staying only with the statistical study, there is certainly room for
                      and even hints of a saying source in the results. The problem is that
                      genera could also be an explanation for these results. So the conclusion
                      is that while the study can not demonstrate the need for a saying
                      source, it certainly leaves room for one.
                      >
                      > Leaving the study, there are other arguments to make, most of which
                      I'll leave to other people to make if they wish. But my own argument has
                      been from Luke's behavior. Luke follows the wording of the sayings very
                      closely. However, the order he follows not at all. It has been noted by
                      some that the order of "Q" material in Luke and Matthew is correlated.
                      However, if you take out the narrative parts of the hypothetical "Q"
                      (which I suspect have a different history than the sayings), you find
                      that the order of the sayings in Matthew and Luke do not correlate at
                      all. This random scatter might make an argument for an oral source, but
                      then the closeness of the wording might argue otherwise.
                      >
                      > If Luke uses Matthew and regards Matthew as a contemporary document,
                      and not a historical one, then I find it odd that Luke quotes Matthew so
                      precisely, as if he were preserving the words Jesus actually spoke. On
                      the other hand, if Luke thought Matthew was an old historical source,
                      then I think the way he rips it apart is odd. I would expect it to be
                      treated more like he treats Mark.
                      >
                      > If, however, Luke worked from an un-ordered Matthian-themed list of
                      sayings which he believed to be genuinely historical, then Luke's
                      behavior makes perfect sense. From Luke's point of view, he has words
                      actually spoken by Jesus, and he treats then with respect. On the other
                      hand, as it is just a list with no intrinsic order, he feels free to
                      place them where he wills for literary advantage.
                      >
                      > So, for me at least, a saying source is still part of the solution.
                      >
                      > Dave Gentile

                      Thanks very much. To the board in general as well as to Mr. Gentile: If
                      we view Luke's rearrangement of the order of Q material found in Matthew
                      as asymptomatic of his characteristic treatment of Mark, then is it
                      possible that the simple list of sayings that Luke used -- with all
                      their evident statistical resonances with additional non-Q Matthew
                      material -- was indeed from a source very similar to Matthew but not
                      Matthew itself? In other words, could Q simply be an ur-Matthew that
                      antedated our known Matthew and that only consisted of the Q passages?

                      Or does that explanation simply overlook too much else that points away
                      from such an explanation? Am I also, perhaps, unconsciously allowing
                      myself to be swayed by the interpretation sometimes given to Papias's
                      remarks that seem to imply to some that Papias only know a Matthew that
                      consisted of sayings, period. Yes, I know that not all view "logia" as
                      meaning sayings.

                      Conversely, are there some here that see Gentile's statistics as bearing
                      out entirely the supposition -- which would have been surprising to many
                      a generation or so ago -- that lock, stock and barrel of the original Q
                      were first set down in Matthew as we know it today after all. And thus
                      Luke is working entirely from a source we can readily study today -- the
                      known Gospel of Matthew.

                      Personally, I still have to wonder -- if that's the case -- how come
                      Luke would rearrange Matthew material so much more radically than he
                      does Mark material. Or is that a hang-up I can sensibly put aside?

                      Thoughts anyone?

                      Thanks all,

                      Geoffrey Riggs
                    • David Inglis
                      I spent quite a while using different selections of words: the n most frequent, those only appearing in all HHB categories, those appearing in most
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 24, 2010
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                        I spent quite a while using different selections of words: the 'n' most
                        frequent, those only appearing in all HHB categories, those appearing in
                        most categories, those with the greatest variation in relative frequency,
                        ignoring those with little variation in relative frequency, etc., etc., etc.
                        I eventually gave up because there was too much variation in results
                        depending on which words were chosen for the analysis. Nevertheless, I would
                        say that my results generally support the Mk -> Mt -> Lk trajectory, but
                        with 'wrinkles' in other directions that depended on the words I selected.



                        From my work on Marcion I've become increasingly convinced that the form of
                        Lk that we see (at least, I can't speak for Mk or Mt) was forged over a
                        considerable period, during which the order of some passages changed (e.g.
                        Nazareth <-> Capernaum), some passages were removed, and others added. So, I
                        can see some opportunity for passages in early Lk to have been added to Mt,
                        and passages in Mk or Mt to have been added to later Lk. The problem this
                        gives anyone using the HHB (or similar) data is that although it's split up
                        into categories based on sharing or words or passages across synoptic,
                        within each category there are almost certainly words from different periods
                        of time, written by different people, that are impossible to detect. As a
                        result, different word selections may well change the directionality
                        evidence. So, for me, I still believe that this sort of directionality
                        evidence is useful, but it is more limited than I once thought. I think it
                        best to say that it's just one of many useful indicators, all of which have
                        to be taken into account to have a hope of getting the true picture.



                        David Inglis

                        Lafayette, CA, 94549, USA



                        From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of David Mealand
                        Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 1:41 AM
                        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: Source Theories and the HHB Concordance

                        Yes I think it would be nice to check for homogeneity
                        but it could probably only be done on some of the larger blocks.
                        This is partly because I like the reassurance partitioning
                        provides, partly I would really like to separate material
                        of different genre, but I don't think the HHB data are amenable
                        to that. I note though that DG does quite rightly pay attention to
                        genre at the interpretative stage.

                        I have a slightly different take on the end conclusions
                        from using the 50 more frequent words (noting the
                        absence of the most frequent from HHB) and using a
                        different method to get two dimensional displays
                        of the relation between the 19 groups, but I think that
                        DG's analysis definitely deserves attention.

                        David M.

                        ---------
                        David Mealand, University of Edinburgh



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Tony Buglass
                        Just back from midnight communion - feeling well-frozen and well-blessed! Happy Christmas to all of you and yours, Blessings, Rev Tony Buglass Superintendent
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 24, 2010
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                          Just back from midnight communion - feeling well-frozen and well-blessed!

                          Happy Christmas to all of you and yours,
                          Blessings,
                          Rev Tony Buglass
                          Superintendent Minister
                          Calderdale Methodist Circuit

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Tony Buglass
                          Of course, I intended to change the subject line to Christmas Greetings - I refer you to the comment about being well frozen - the brain stopped working...
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 24, 2010
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                            Of course, I intended to change the subject line to "Christmas Greetings" - I refer you to the comment about being "well frozen" - the brain stopped working...

                            Blessings, all!
                            Rev Tony Buglass
                            Superintendent Minister
                            Calderdale Methodist Circuit

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Maluflen@aol.com
                            DAVE GENTILE: Leaving the study, there are other arguments to make, most of which I ll leave to other people to make if they wish. But my own argument has been
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 26, 2010
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                              DAVE GENTILE:
                              Leaving the study, there are other arguments to make, most of which
                              I'll leave to other people to make if they wish. But my own argument
                              has been from Luke's behavior. Luke follows the wording of the sayings
                              very closely. However, the order he follows not at all. It has been
                              noted by some that the order of "Q" material in Luke and Matthew is
                              correlated. However, if you take out the narrative parts of the
                              hypothetical "Q" (which I suspect have a different history than the
                              sayings), you find that the order of the sayings in Matthew and Luke do
                              not correlate at all.

                              LEONARD:
                              This last comment is an overstatement. What you do not find between
                              Matthew and Luke, in terms of the sayings of Jesus they offer, is
                              perfect alignment. On the other hand, there certainly is significant
                              correlation, as well as some non-correlation, between Matthew and Luke
                              in the sayings material as a whole. For instance, if you begin with
                              focusing on the five major discourses in Matthew, Luke generally has
                              material corresponding to these -- in parts of his Gospel that also
                              correspond generally to their sequence in Matthew (sermon on the
                              mount/plain, commissioning of the twelve, eschatological discourse,
                              etc.).

                              DAVE:
                              If Luke uses Matthew and regards Matthew as a contemporary document,
                              and not a historical one, then I find it odd that Luke quotes Matthew
                              so precisely, as if he were preserving the words Jesus actually spoke.
                              On the other hand, if Luke thought Matthew was an old historical
                              source, then I think the way he rips it apart is odd. I would expect it
                              to be treated more like he treats Mark.

                              LEONARD:
                              Responding to the first sentence above, there are any number of reasons
                              why Luke might have thought the sayings of Jesus in Matthew are worth
                              quoting precisely, to the extent that they are indeed so quoted, even
                              if the hypothesis that Luke considered Matthew a “contemporary”, and
                              “not a historical” document were sound. The hypothesis that sayings
                              believed to preserve words that Jesus actually spoke would for that
                              reason be recorded by Luke without alteration also rests on modern (not
                              to say Protestant/fundamentalistic) presuppositions that are probably
                              quite irrelevant to the behavior of the Evangelists. The
                              presuppositions in the final two sentences above are also problematic.
                              The idea that Luke could calmly asses Matthew as a contemporary
                              document that could be treated casually compared to a “historical” Mark
                              that would require more respectful treatment flies in the face of the
                              historical evidence from very soon after the composition of Luke. How
                              could Luke’s audience be expected to concur with this evaluation of
                              Matthew, and yet an ecclesiastical consensus emerges, without
                              challenge, just a few years later, to the effect that Matthew was the
                              first Gospel written? The evidence of strangely different treatment by
                              Luke of Matthew and Mark respectively is most convincingly handled by
                              the assumption that Luke did not know or use Mark, and that the
                              symmetry between Luke-Mark double tradition and Matthew-Mark double
                              tradition results from a single author, Mark, making use of the two
                              traditional gospels, one Jewish-Christian and the other
                              Gentile-Christian, for his own conciliatory, catechetical-liturgical
                              and dramatic purposes.

                              Leonard Maluf
                            • gentdave1
                              ... LEONARD: This last comment is an overstatement. What you do not find between Matthew and Luke, in terms of the sayings of Jesus they offer, is perfect
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 27, 2010
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                                > However, if you take out the narrative parts of the
                                > hypothetical "Q" (which I suspect have a different history than the
                                > sayings), you find that the order of the sayings in Matthew and Luke do
                                > not correlate at all.
                                >
                                >

                                LEONARD:
                                This last comment is an overstatement. What you do not find between
                                Matthew and Luke, in terms of the sayings of Jesus they offer, is
                                perfect alignment. On the other hand, there certainly is significant
                                correlation, as well as some non-correlation, between Matthew and Luke in the sayings material as a whole. For instance, if you begin with focusing on the five major discourses in Matthew, Luke generally has material corresponding to these -- in parts of his Gospel that also correspond generally to their sequence in Matthew (sermon on the mount/plain, commissioning of the twelve, eschatological discourse, etc.).

                                Dave: It was a precise statement, indicating something that is mathematically true about the ordering of the non-narrative "Q" sayings. If you simply number the sayings, the order of the sayings do not correlate significantly.

                                Of course it is still possible that what you say is also true. We could achieve a zero total correlation by taking blocks of sayings and moving them around, but still have perfect correlation within the blocks. So this is not really a test for "zero information" in common between the two sets. It might be interesting to test some of these blocks. Does the order of sayings within the blocks correlate? Another test would be to see how often pairs are in the same order, etc...

                                Let's suppose we find a relation (or without bothering to do any math, look at the sermons, for example, and note what seems to be a fair amount of common content. What would this tell us? If Luke was using Matthew then we still have him doing a fairly rigorous job of rearranging the sayings. On the other hand, if they both work from a saying source it tells us that, to some extent at least, sections of the list of sayings seemed to group together in the source. Possibly we could suppose that there was even some sort of sub-list, which constituted a sermon in the source. Although, my speculation would be that this structure is something Luke picked up after contact with Matthew. If Luke-A was re-written to Luke-B after Matthew as Bruce suggests, then my guess would be that the sermon is added to Luke at this point, and that Luke borrows some things that might previously have been elsewhere in his text and adds them here.

                                Outside of the sermons, what commonalities in ordering do you perceive?

                                LEONARD:
                                The hypothesis that sayings
                                believed to preserve words that Jesus actually spoke would for that
                                reason be recorded by Luke without alteration also rests on modern (not
                                to say Protestant/fundamen talistic) presuppositions that are probably
                                quite irrelevant to the behavior of the Evangelists.

                                Dave: I'm relying more on Luke's opening, when he tells us he wants to go back to the beginning. I think he does have respect for what he regards as historical facts. He is certainly not above inventing things to suit his literary and Theological needs, but he may feel somewhat constrained to present as history, what he (and probably much of his audience) regard as established history.

                                LEONARD:
                                How could Luke's audience be expected to concur with this evaluation of Matthew, and yet an ecclesiastical consensus emerges, without
                                challenge, just a few years later, to the effect that Matthew was the
                                first Gospel written?

                                Dave: My thesis is this:

                                A list of saying appears on the scene, say around 80 AD for example, it is in Aramaic and Greek "translation" (although it may be in large part back translation) which claims to be words spoken by Jesus as remembered by "Matthew" and written down by him at the time, in Aramaic. From this list, and from Mark, the gospel of Matthew is composed around the year 80.

                                Luke knows the gospel of Matthew is contemporary, and is convinced (incorrectly I believe) that the saying list is authentic. His behavior of quoting the sayings, while paying relatively little attention to the rest of Matthew then seems very intelligible.

                                The later ecclesiastical consensus is then explicable too. Matthew's gospel is regarded as the most authoritative, relying on both the supposed first written source, and Mark (which it "corrects"). A short hand of this gets passed down as "Matthew wrote first".

                                LEONARD:

                                The evidence of strangely different treatment by
                                Luke of Matthew and Mark respectively is most convincingly handled by
                                the assumption that Luke did not know or use Mark, and that the
                                symmetry between Luke-Mark double tradition and Matthew-Mark double
                                tradition results from a single author, Mark, making use of the two
                                traditional gospels, one Jewish-Christian and the other
                                Gentile-Christian, for his own conciliatory, catechetical- liturgical
                                and dramatic purposes.

                                Dave: The statistical study is nearly proof that this did not happen.

                                Dave Gentile
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