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Re: [Synoptic-L] Re: [XTalk] Again on Michael Goulder

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  • Mark Goodacre
    Thanks, Bruce. Yes, the memoir came out last September; it may be that you missed the date stamp on that post. All best, Mark ... -- Mark Goodacre Duke
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 21, 2010
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      Thanks, Bruce. Yes, the memoir came out last September; it may be
      that you missed the date stamp on that post. All best, Mark

      On 20 July 2010 23:18, E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:
      > Mark,
      >
      > Thanks for the reference, and perhaps especially the pictures. It all helps.
      > One correction, though: Michael's memoir Five Stones has been published, and
      > is available through the usual channels.
      >
      > Bruce
      >
      > E Bruce Brooks
      > Warring States Project
      > University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      >
      >



      --
      Mark Goodacre
      Duke University
      Department of Religion
      Gray Building / Box 90964
      Durham, NC 27708-0964    USA
      Phone: 919-660-3503        Fax: 919-660-3530

      http://www.markgoodacre.org
    • E Bruce Brooks
      To: Crosstalk Cc: Synoptic, GPG, WSW On: Auch Kleine Dinge: In Memoriam Michael Goulder Date: 25 July 2010 Time: A little past midnight From: Bruce In my
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 24, 2010
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        To: Crosstalk
        Cc: Synoptic, GPG, WSW
        On: Auch Kleine Dinge: In Memoriam Michael Goulder
        Date: 25 July 2010
        Time: A little past midnight
        From: Bruce

        In my latitude, 25 July has just begun; formerly St Christopher's Day,
        now the day appointed for the recollection of the person and notable
        achievements of Michael Goulder, at one time Rector of St
        Christopher's, Withington.

        What form of recollection would be most suitable, for a scholarly
        discoverer of the first magnitude? As I have elsewhere said of the
        Sinologist George Kennedy, perhaps the most suitable way to honor a
        discoverer is to keep on discovering. I would thus take this memorial
        day as a time for reminding ourselves of our obligation to improve and
        extend, and not merely to appreciate, what has been given to us by
        previous scholarly achievement.

        This does not mean writing another five books on the Psalms, or
        another two volumes on Luke, to match Michael in shelf inches. The
        point is not to match, but to continue, and for most of us, unsituated
        as we are for continuous scholarly investigation, the continuity must
        necessarily be in small modules. But the small modules should do more
        than talk to themselves. How then shall they get into the continuing
        stream of scholarly discourse?

        One traditional method is not the book, but the chapter: the small
        contribution bundled with others to make a larger contribution. The
        academic Festschrift is a not wholly functional example of this mode.
        I have before me an interesting variation. It is W K Lowther Clarke's
        book New Testament Problems (Macmillan 1929), written before 7 July
        1937 and thus while philology was still more or less alive. It was
        dedicated to Clarke's teacher Foakes-Jackson, in lieu of the 70th
        birthday Festschrift which never happened. Clarke himself had no time
        to be a scholar; as he says in his dedicatory epistle, by getting him
        an editorial position in the field, "You prevented me from writing the
        theological books I had planned." Clarke was the Editorial Secretary
        of SPCK, a reviewer of other people's stuff, reading, as he says,
        about 1000 books a year, and with no time to do anything but distil
        his impressions of them and pass selected impressions on to the
        qualified general reader. His book is a further selection of those
        impressions, developed as topical essays originally printed in such
        church magazines as Church Quarterly Review, Expository Times, and
        Review of the Churches. There are 23 essays in 217 pages, or about 9
        pages each. They show him acting on what he has read, not merely
        taking it in. They show a commendable balance of mind and concision of
        style. I recommend them.

        Still more do I recommend this medium: the short piece shown to others
        as a contribution to the general flow of collective knowledge of the
        subject. Books these days run to the hundreds of pages, and they
        increasingly retail in the hundreds of dollars. That is a path of
        self-extinction, and I need say no more of it, save that the typical
        book is also overdeveloped to the point of self-refutation, in its
        push (while the author is typically in his twenties, and green behind
        the ears) to be "definitive." The shorter note, by contrast, is more
        often content to be suggestive; to leave something for others to
        develop. The attempt (of which the tragic figure of Einstein should be
        a sufficiently minatory example) to finish the work, to do more than,
        under present conditions of knowledge, can be well done, is to spoil
        the work.

        The journal is maybe a little better. True, articles in journals (such
        is the page-count pressure of the obsolete yet persistent tenure
        system) tend to be ever longer: monographs in all but binding. The day
        when a half-page note was regularly seen in the Journal of the
        American Oriental Society is long gone. But there are other journals
        (the one I am currently launching has a median length of 4 pages, and
        we routinely refuse articles which reach the lower threshold of
        alternate journals, namely 20 pages). And the tendency to gigantism
        and to gigantistic pricing can also be resisted by societies or other
        journal proprietors who decline to sell out to Cambridge and Company,
        simply by declining. Forbearance is among the cardinal scholarly
        virtues; the seed and mother of the other virtues. I recommend that too.

        A more recent possibility is the electronic forum. These die more
        rapidly than journals, they silt up with nonlookers, they turn trivial
        or fall silent. But again, in the nature of things, this need not be
        the case. It is merely (it seems to me) that the art of managing such
        a conversation is still in its infancy, whereas the editorship of
        paper media has a more developed tradition of procedure to rely on. We
        might thus withhold a judgement of perdition on the attempts, so far,
        to get something of the sort going on the airwaves.

        As I have elsewhere observed of the Warring States (classical Chinese)
        texts, things like this need institutional continuity in order to
        survive and maintain ongoing vitality. They can't be too individual or
        too circumstantial; or if they start so, they need to be able to
        outgrow themselves and get onto a longer track. They need to enter,
        and then to survive, their adolescence.

        Probably no focus of intellectual exchange has ever been more
        productive, per pint consumed, than the coffeehouses of London, in
        which the Royal Society would continue its meetings, and the merchants
        would get together to balance risks, and Richard Steele would edit the
        Guardian, and the gamblers would summon de Moivre from his chess game
        to calculate odds for them, thus creating (together with the work of
        Bernoulli in Switzerland) the science of statistics.

        So another thing we could perhaps use in the current century is a
        counterpart to Slaughter's Coffee House. At what commercial but
        welcoming venue could the heirs and assigns of Goulder conveniently
        meet, this afternoon, to exchange individual observations and develop
        collective hypotheses?

        Papa Gino, anyone?

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      • Ron Price
        Michael Goulder s sense of humour made him one of the most interesting lecturers I ve ever come across. His generosity extended to trying, over an extended
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 26, 2010
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          Michael Goulder's sense of humour made him one of the most interesting
          lecturers I've ever come across. His generosity extended to trying, over an
          extended period, to advise me with regard to the possible publication of my
          unconventional 'page hypothesis'.

          In the 1990s Birmingham University's Faculty of Arts organized 'Day Schools'
          on biblical/theological topics. They found a winning formula: choose a
          controversial topic, and have Goulder and a more traditional scholar present
          opposing viewpoints. On the two such 'Day Schools' that I attended,
          Michael's presentations were by far the more convincing in my opinion. The
          one I remember best was in 1990 on Mark's Gospel, when his adversary was
          Morna Hooker.

          I was privileged to have a separate discussion session with Goulder at
          Birmingham University. We also corresponded in 1990 and 1996, during which
          time I was honoured to receive four letters from him. My hypothesis was
          dependent on positing certain early interpolations in Mark, John, and the
          Corinthian correspondence. Goulder rejected all such interpolations, but was
          nevertheless prepared to offer his advice on other aspects. All this was
          before I had made appreciable headway in tackling the Synoptic Problem, so I
          never challenged him on this.

          Goulder deserves a high ranking among biblical scholars, especially in my
          view for his Two Missions theory, for his appreciation of the high degree of
          creativity (especially in the parables) in both Matthew and Luke, and above
          all for his convincing demonstration of Luke's familiarity with Matthew's
          Gospel in passages such as Lk 3:7-9; 3:16-17; 4:1-13; 7:1-10; 7:18-35;
          10:21-22; 19:12-27 (for which see his "Luke: A New Paradigm").

          Nevertheless history may yet decide that he was over-impressed by Austin
          Farrer's too simple assessment that all the pericopes of the Double
          Tradition result from Luke's use of Matthew. For Goulder never deduced that
          the multitude of Semitic aphorisms in the Double Tradition clearly indicate
          an origin several decades earlier than Matthew, and probably require a
          written source to explain their transmission to both Matthew and Luke.

          Ron Price

          Derbyshire, UK

          Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
        • Jeff Peterson
          ... I can see an argument that the poetic style of the Double Tradition suggests an origin in Aramaic or at least pre-Matthean composition (although Goulder
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 26, 2010
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            On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > Goulder never deduced that
            > the multitude of Semitic aphorisms in the Double Tradition clearly indicate
            > an origin several decades earlier than Matthew, and probably require a
            > written source to explain their transmission to both Matthew and Luke.
            >
            I can see an argument that the poetic style of the Double Tradition suggests
            an origin in Aramaic or at least pre-Matthean composition (although Goulder
            did a pretty good job identifying common style in Matthaean redaction of
            Mark, Q, and M, particularly in his JBL articles; Matthew's date, habits,
            and concerns are remarkably similar to Q's).

            But it's hard to see how this could "require" a common source rather than
            direct use of one Evangelist by another; as Sanders and Davies noted, a
            degree of Matthew/Luke agreement close enough to establish independent use
            of a common source positively invites explanation by Luke's direct
            acquaintance with Matthew (or, much less plausibly, vice versa). And that
            holds regardless of the style of the common material and of the source from
            which the earlier Evangelist derived it.

            Jeff Peterson
            Austin Graduate School of Theology
            Austin, Texas


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ron Price
            ... Jeff, So far, so good. ... My contention here is that Goulder s arguments about common style were based primarily on the non-aphoristic passages in Q,
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 27, 2010
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              Jeff Peterson wrote:

              > I can see an argument that the poetic style of the Double Tradition suggests
              > an origin in Aramaic or at least pre-Matthean composition

              Jeff,

              So far, so good.

              > (although Goulder did a pretty good job identifying common style in Matthaean
              > redaction of Mark, Q, and M, particularly in his JBL articles; Matthew's date,
              > habits, and concerns are remarkably similar to Q's).

              My contention here is that Goulder's arguments about common style were based
              primarily on the non-aphoristic passages in Q, which passages I deem to have
              a Matthean origin.

              > But it's hard to see how this could "require" a common source rather than
              > direct use of one Evangelist by another; as Sanders and Davies noted, a
              > degree of Matthew/Luke agreement close enough to establish independent use
              > of a common source positively invites explanation by Luke's direct
              > acquaintance with Matthew (or, much less plausibly, vice versa). And that
              > holds regardless of the style of the common material and of the source from
              > which the earlier Evangelist derived it.

              There are three serious problems with this 'invited' explanation. Firstly it
              assumes we can treat the Double Tradition as a unity when considering the
              relationship of the Matt/Luke versions of its material. Secondly it requires
              that in every case Luke's version of a DT pericope is secondary to Matthew's
              version. Thirdly it assumes that the question of how Matthew acquired the
              aphorisms is an irrelevance.

              To deal with the first point first, there is a significant difference in
              style between the Semitic aphorisms and material such as the Temptation, the
              Centurion's Servant, the Talents/Pounds and the Lament for Jerusalem. The
              widespread use of Semitic parallelism in the aphorisms indicates an origin
              in a Semitic environment several decades before Matthew. The latter material
              includes indications of sympathy towards the Gentiles, quotations from the
              Septuagint, a hint that Jerusalem had already fallen, the acceptance of a
              delay in Jesus' promised return, as well as considerable signs of Matthew's
              characteristic style.

              Concerning indications of greater Lukan primitivity, see the paragraph
              headed "Occasional Lukan Originality" in the Web page below.

              Thirdly, where did Matthew get the Semitic aphorisms from? Was it from oral
              tradition or was it from a written source? It is very unlikely that so many
              authentic-looking aphorisms could have been preserved through several
              decades of oral tradition spanning the break-up of the Jerusalem Jesus
              movement and the era of the dominance of an apostle who took little interest
              in the life or sayings of Jesus. Surely therefore Matthew had a written
              source containing the aphorisms. Did Luke also use this source? Well there
              are the mistranslations in Lk 11:41 & 11:48 which show that at least two of
              the woes were taken not from Matthew but from an Aramaic source. Then of
              course there's the above-mentioned 'Occasional Lukan Originality'.

              Confirmation of the written source comes from the historical testimony of
              Papias, which neatly matches a scenario in which the synoptic authors had to
              make their own translations of the sayings.

              Finally there are the hints dropped by Luke.
              (1) I had already found that the aphorisms seemed to be arranged in pairs
              when I spotted that Lk 10:1 appears to hint at this. It also hints that
              there were 72 sayings in all, and my investigations have shown how a highly
              coherent structure can be formed from 72 sayings.
              (2) In April 2006 I discovered another hint, this time in Lk 9:28. Here Luke
              redacts Mark's "six days" to "about eight days". How odd. Now my posited
              structure has four distinct sections, with each section having two equal
              halves. We thus have eight half-sections. Luke must have recognized these
              because certain material Matthew largely keeps together, Luke splits: the
              mission material (part into Lk 9:57-10:12 and part of the rest into ch.12.),
              and the judgement material into the woes (ch.11) and the rest (mainly
              ch.17). Lk 9:28 is placed immediately after he had copied saying C12 (Mk
              9:1), the opening saying in the sixth of eight subsections. Lastly he added
              to Mark's version the superfluous "META TOUS LOGOUS TOUTOUS", arguably
              confirming that Lk 9:28 referred to the 'logia'.

              Ron Price

              Derbyshire, UK

              http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/syno_LkMt.html
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