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Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark and Aramaic

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Graham Budd Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 6:42 AM To: Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark and
    Message 1 of 35 , Nov 23, 2009
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      --------------------------------------------------
      From: "Graham Budd" <graham.budd@...>
      Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 6:42 AM
      To: <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark and Aramaic

      > I suppose all this has already been done, but still!
      >
      >
      > So, I took Ron Price's lists of the six doublets shared in Matthew,
      > Luke and Mark, and compared the Matthew- and Luke-only versions of
      > them compared to their versions of the Markan version.
      >
      > They are:
      >
      > 1. It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke
      > in a letter of the law to be dropped.
      >
      > 2. Whoever disowns me in front of others, the Son of Man will disown
      > in front of the angels of God.
      >
      > 3. Whoever does not take up his cross and follow me cannot be my
      > disciple.
      >
      > 4. Whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his
      > life for my sake will save it.
      >
      > 5. Whoever welcomes you welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes
      > him who sent me.
      >
      > 6. For to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who
      > does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
      >
      > (see Ron's website for the references).
      >
      > For each of these six sayings, there are five versions: one in Mark,
      > and two each in Luke and Matthew, one from the Mark source, and one
      > from the putative sayings source (for the last one Ron argues there is
      > another in Luke as well, but I’ll ignore this for these purposes).
      >
      > Key: TMt = Triple tradition, Matthew; TMk, Triple Tradition, Mark; TL,
      > Triple tradition, Luke; QM; Q material, Matthew; QL, Q material, Luke.
      >
      > 1.
      > TMt ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσεται,
      > οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν.
      > Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
      >
      > TL ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσονται,
      > οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρελεύσονται.
      > Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
      >
      > TMk ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσονται,
      > οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ παρελεύσονται.
      > Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
      >
      > QL εὐκοπώτερον δὲ ἐστιν τὸν οὐρανὸν
      > καὶ τὴν γῆν παρελθεῖν ἢ τοῦ νόμου
      > μίαν κεραίαν πεσεῖν.
      > It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least
      > stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
      >
      > QM [ἀμὴν γὰρ λέγω] ὑμῖν ἕως ἂν
      > παρέλθῃ ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ ἰῶτα ἓν
      > ἢ μία κεραία οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἀπὸ τοῦ
      > νόμου ἕως ἂν πάντα γένηται.
      > [I tell you the truth,] until heaven and earth disappear, not the
      > smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means
      > disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
      >
      > In the triple tradition, Mt and L use 13 out of 13 words the same
      > (essentially).
      > in the Q material, it is more complex as Matthew (?) has edited, but
      > note variation in the comparable parts.
      >
      > 2.
      > TMt μέλλει γὰρ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου
      > ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τῇ δόξῃ τοῦ πατρὸς
      > αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ἀγγέλων αὐτοῦ, καὶ
      > τότε ἀποδώσει ἑκάστῳ κατὰ τὴν
      > πρᾶξιν αὐτοῦ.
      > For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his
      > angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has
      > done.
      >
      > TL ὃς γὰρ ἂν ἐπαισχυνθῇ με καὶ τοὺς
      > ἐμοὺς λόγους, τοῦτον ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ
      > ἀνθρώπου ἐπαισχυνθήσεται, ὅταν ἔλθῃ
      > ἐν τῇ δόξῃ αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῦ πατρὸς
      > καὶ τῶν ἁγίων ἀγγέλων.
      > For whosoever __ shall be ashamed of me and of my words of him shall
      > the Son of man be ashamed when he shall come in his own glory and in
      > his Father's and of the holy angels
      >
      > TMk ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν ἐπαισχυνθῇ με καὶ
      > τοὺς ἐμοὺς λόγους ἐν τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ
      > τῇ μοιχαλίδι καὶ ἁμαρτωλῷ καὶ ὁ
      > υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐπαισχυνθήσεται
      > αὐτὸν ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐν τῇ δόξῃ τοῦ
      > πατρὸς αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ἀγγέλων τῶν
      > ἁγίων.
      > If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful
      > generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his
      > Father's glory with the holy angels."
      >
      > QL ὁ δὲ ἀρνησάμενος με ἐνώπιον τῶν
      > ἀνθρώπων ἀπαρνηθήσεται ἐνώπιον τῶν
      > ἀγγέλων τοῦ θεοῦ.
      > But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of
      > God.
      >
      > QM ὅστις δὲ ἀρνήσηται με ἔμπροσθεν
      > τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ἀρνήσομαι καγὼ αὐτὸν
      > ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν τοῖς
      > οὐρανοῖς.
      > But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father
      > in heaven.
      >
      > Here Luke is very close to Mark; Matthew is fairly divergent through
      > editing, although in the comparable parts he is close. Yet again, in
      > the Q material, although the sense is pretty much the same, there is
      > divergence.
      >
      > 3.
      > TMt Τότε ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν τοῖς μαθηταῖς
      > αὐτοῦ· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου
      > ἐλθεῖν, ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ
      > ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ
      > ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
      > Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he
      > must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
      >
      > TL Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας· εἰ τις θέλει
      > ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν
      > καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ’
      > ἡμέραν καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
      > Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny
      > himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
      >
      > TMk Καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος τὸν ὄχλον σὺν
      > τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς·
      > εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἐλθεῖν,
      > ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν
      > σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
      > Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If
      > anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross
      > and follow me.
      >
      > QM καὶ ὃς οὐ λαμβάνει τὸν σταυρὸν
      > αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀκολουθεῖ ὀπίσω μου, οὐκ
      > ἔστιν μου ἄξιος.
      > And anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of
      > me.
      >
      > QL ὅστις οὐ βαστάζει τὸν σταυρὸν
      > ἑαυτοῦ καὶ ἔρχεται ὀπίσω μου, οὐ
      > δύναται εἶναι μου μαθητής.
      > And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my
      > disciple.
      >
      > Same pattern. Very close (but not identical in this case!) in the
      > Triple material, divergent in the Q.
      >
      > TMk γὰρ ἐὰν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ
      > σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν• ὃς δ᾽ἂν
      > ἀπολέσει τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν
      > ἐμοῦ καὶ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου σώσει αὐτήν.
      > For whosoever will save his life shall lose it and whosoever will lose
      > his life for my sake and for the gospel shall find it
      >
      > TL ὃς γὰρ ἂν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ
      > σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν· ὃς δ' ἂν
      > ἀπολέσῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν
      > ἐμοῦ οὗτος σώσει αὐτήν.
      > (etc)
      >
      > TMt ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ
      > σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν· ὃς δ’ ἂν
      > ἀπολέσῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν
      > ἐμοῦ εὑρήσει αὐτήν·
      >
      > QM ὁ εὑρὼν τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἀπολέσει
      > αὐτήν, καὶ ὁ ἀπολέσας τὴν ψυχὴν
      > αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ εὑρήσει αὐτήν.
      >
      > QL ὃς ἐὰν ζητήσῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ
      > περιποιήσασθαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν, ὃς
      > δ᾽ἂν ἀπολέσῃ ζῳογονήσει αὐτήν.
      >
      >
      > very similar in the T material, verbs diverge in the Q material.
      > This is the doublet that Black thinks shows as well as anything
      > independent translation (between Luke and Mark) of an Aramaic Vorlage
      > - for θέλῃ and ζητήσῃ are translation variants of the same
      > Aramaic, as are ζῳογονήσει, σώσει and εὑρήσει.
      >
      > 5.
      > TMt ὅστις οὖν ταπεινώσει ἑαυτὸν ὡς τὸ
      > παιδίον τοῦτο, οὗτος ἐστιν ὁ μείζων
      > ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν. καὶ ὃς
      > ἐὰν δέξηται ἓν παιδίον τοιοῦτο ἐπὶ
      > τῷ ὀνόματι μου, ἐμὲ δέχεται.
      > Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in
      > the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this
      > in my name welcomes me.
      >
      > TMk ὃς ἂν ἓν τῶν τοιούτων παιδίων
      > δέξηται ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι μου, ἐμὲ
      > δέχεται καὶ ὃς ἂν ἐμὲ δέχηται, οὐκ
      > ἐμὲ δέχεται ἀλλὰ τὸν ἀποστείλαντα
      > με.
      > Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me;
      > and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.
      >
      > TL καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· ὃς ἐὰν δέξηται
      > τοῦτο τὸ παιδίον ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι μου,
      > ἐμὲ δέχεται· καὶ ὃς ἂν ἐμὲ δέξηται,
      > δέχεται τὸν ἀποστείλαντα με·
      > Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name
      > welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.
      >
      > QM ὁ δεχόμενος ὑμᾶς ἐμὲ δέχεται καὶ
      > ὁ ἐμὲ δεχόμενος δέχεται τὸν
      > ἀποστείλαντα με.
      > He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the
      > one who sent me.
      >
      > QL Ὁ ἀκούων ὑμῶν ἐμοῦ ἀκούει, καὶ ὁ
      > ἀθετῶν ὑμᾶς ἐμὲ ἀθετεῖ· ὁ δὲ ἐμὲ
      > ἀθετῶν ἀθετεῖ τὸν ἀποστείλαντα με.
      > He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me;
      > but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
      >
      > 6.
      > TMt ὅστις γὰρ ἔχει, δοθήσεται αὐτῷ
      > καὶ περισσευθήσεται· ὅστις δὲ οὐκ
      > ἔχει, καὶ ὁ ἔχει ἀρθήσεται ἀπ’
      > αὐτοῦ.
      > Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever
      > does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
      >
      > TMk ὃς γὰρ ἔχει, δοθήσεται αὐτῷ· καὶ
      > ὃς οὐκ ἔχει καὶ ὁ ἔχει ἀρθήσεται
      > ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ.
      > Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he
      > has will be taken from him."
      >
      > TL ὃς ἂν γὰρ ἔχῃ, δοθήσεται αὐτῷ·
      > καὶ ὃς ἂν μὴ ἔχῃ, καὶ ὁ δοκεῖ ἔχειν
      > ἀρθήσεται ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ.
      > Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he
      > thinks he has will be taken from him.
      >
      > QM τῷ γὰρ ἔχοντι παντὶ δοθήσεται καὶ
      > περισσευθήσεται, τοῦ δὲ μὴ ἔχοντος
      > καὶ ὁ ἔχει ἀρθήσεται ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ.
      > For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an
      > abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from
      > him.
      >
      > QL παντὶ δὲ ᾧ ἐδόθη πολύ, πολὺ
      > ζητηθήσεται παρ’ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ᾧ
      > παρέθεντο πολὺ περισσότερον
      > αἰτήσουσιν αὐτόν.
      > From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
      > from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
      >
      > Again, the same pattern.
      >
      > The presence of the doublets between Q and triple tradition material
      > rather strongly suggests that both Mark and Matthew/Luke used sources,
      > although some of them could of course be attestations to "reuse" by
      > Jesus of the same saying in different settings.
      >
      > When Luke and Matthew have a single Greek source (Mark), they are
      > typically similar to very similar to each other, especially in the
      > parts where the sense is left the same. But in the case of the Q
      > material, they are usually divergent in verbs or adverbs, and yet this
      > is for the same sayings in each case. Luke is typically closer to his
      > source in the triple material, which is one reason to think that Luke
      > preserves the best Q material.
      >
      > The issue here is not that different versions of the same saying are
      > preserved in the doublet pairs, although that is interesting. Rather,
      > it is that Matthew and Luke apparently edit their source material
      > differently between the Mark and the Q material, even though they are
      > dealing with the same sayings. But this would be very strange. We
      > know that Luke rarely alters Mark in transmission in these sayings,
      > and Matthew sometimes does. But yet, judged against Luke, Matthew
      > always does for the Q material, even in cases when he was happy to let
      > the Mark material through unscathed.
      >
      > And the conclusion one is pushed to, perhaps, is that the reason their
      > procedure looks different is that their source material type was
      > different. In Mark, they both have the same Greek text in front of
      > them; but this (from these arguments), seems not to be the case for
      > the Q versions. Either they have different Greek translations, or
      > they are, Maurice Casey-style, independently translating from a Papias-
      > like Aramaic source? Alternatively, how is this pattern explained in
      > a unified all-Greek Q theory?
      >
      >
      > Graham Budd
      >
      > Dept Earth Sciences
      > Palaeobiology
      > Villavägen 16
      > Uppsala
      > Sweden
      > graham.budd©pal.uu.se


      Hi Graham:

      I am convinced that Matthew was neither Aramaic nor Hebrew competent and
      used Mark and a Q document in translational Greek. Luke, however, was
      Aramaic competent and used Mark and an Aramaic Q which he translated
      himself. This is why Luke explains the Hoybyn/"debts"/"sins" idiom in his
      version of the LP and Matthew does not.

      Jack Kilmon
      San Antonio, TX
    • Ron Price
      ... Jack, I can t comment on Matthew s knowledge of Hebrew, but Matthew s retention of debts could have been for other reasons than his lack of understanding
      Message 35 of 35 , Nov 25, 2009
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        Jack Kilmon wrote:

        > I am convinced that Matthew was neither Aramaic nor Hebrew competent and
        > used Mark and a Q document in translational Greek. Luke, however, was
        > Aramaic competent and used Mark and an Aramaic Q which he translated
        > himself. This is why Luke explains the Hoybyn/"debts"/"sins" idiom in his
        > version of the LP and Matthew does not.

        Jack,

        I can't comment on Matthew's knowledge of Hebrew, but Matthew's retention of
        "debts" could have been for other reasons than his lack of understanding of
        the Aramaic word. Both Matthew and Luke transliterate and thus retain the
        Aramaic words "mammon" (Mt 6:24 // Lk 16:13) and "saton" (Mt 13:33 // Lk
        13:21).

        Also, Matthew's gospel is widely thought to have been written in Antioch of
        Syria. Wasn't the Syrian dialect of Aramaic the main language of that town?
        Wouldn't it follow that Matthew probably had some understanding of Aramaic?

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK
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