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Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark and Aramaic

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  • Graham Budd
    I suppose all this has already been done, but still! So, I took Ron Price s lists of the six doublets shared in Matthew, Luke and Mark, and compared the
    Message 1 of 35 , Nov 23, 2009
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      I suppose all this has already been done, but still!


      So, I took Ron Price's lists of the six doublets shared in Matthew,
      Luke and Mark, and compared the Matthew- and Luke-only versions of
      them compared to their versions of the Markan version.

      They are:

      1. It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke
      in a letter of the law to be dropped.

      2. Whoever disowns me in front of others, the Son of Man will disown
      in front of the angels of God.

      3. Whoever does not take up his cross and follow me cannot be my
      disciple.

      4. Whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his
      life for my sake will save it.

      5. Whoever welcomes you welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes
      him who sent me.

      6. For to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who
      does not have, even what he has will be taken away.

      (see Ron's website for the references).

      For each of these six sayings, there are five versions: one in Mark,
      and two each in Luke and Matthew, one from the Mark source, and one
      from the putative sayings source (for the last one Ron argues there is
      another in Luke as well, but I’ll ignore this for these purposes).

      Key: TMt = Triple tradition, Matthew; TMk, Triple Tradition, Mark; TL,
      Triple tradition, Luke; QM; Q material, Matthew; QL, Q material, Luke.

      1.
      TMt ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσεται,
      οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν.
      Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

      TL ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσονται,
      οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρελεύσονται.
      Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

      TMk ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ παρελεύσονται,
      οἱ δὲ λόγοι μου οὐ παρελεύσονται.
      Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

      QL εὐκοπώτερον δὲ ἐστιν τὸν οὐρανὸν
      καὶ τὴν γῆν παρελθεῖν ἢ τοῦ νόμου
      μίαν κεραίαν πεσεῖν.
      It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least
      stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

      QM [ἀμὴν γὰρ λέγω] ὑμῖν ἕως ἂν
      παρέλθῃ ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ ἰῶτα ἓν
      ἢ μία κεραία οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἀπὸ τοῦ
      νόμου ἕως ἂν πάντα γένηται.
      [I tell you the truth,] until heaven and earth disappear, not the
      smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means
      disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

      In the triple tradition, Mt and L use 13 out of 13 words the same
      (essentially).
      in the Q material, it is more complex as Matthew (?) has edited, but
      note variation in the comparable parts.

      2.
      TMt μέλλει γὰρ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου
      ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τῇ δόξῃ τοῦ πατρὸς
      αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ἀγγέλων αὐτοῦ, καὶ
      τότε ἀποδώσει ἑκάστῳ κατὰ τὴν
      πρᾶξιν αὐτοῦ.
      For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his
      angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has
      done.

      TL ὃς γὰρ ἂν ἐπαισχυνθῇ με καὶ τοὺς
      ἐμοὺς λόγους, τοῦτον ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ
      ἀνθρώπου ἐπαισχυνθήσεται, ὅταν ἔλθῃ
      ἐν τῇ δόξῃ αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῦ πατρὸς
      καὶ τῶν ἁγίων ἀγγέλων.
      For whosoever __ shall be ashamed of me and of my words of him shall
      the Son of man be ashamed when he shall come in his own glory and in
      his Father's and of the holy angels

      TMk ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν ἐπαισχυνθῇ με καὶ
      τοὺς ἐμοὺς λόγους ἐν τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ
      τῇ μοιχαλίδι καὶ ἁμαρτωλῷ καὶ ὁ
      υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐπαισχυνθήσεται
      αὐτὸν ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐν τῇ δόξῃ τοῦ
      πατρὸς αὐτοῦ μετὰ τῶν ἀγγέλων τῶν
      ἁγίων.
      If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful
      generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his
      Father's glory with the holy angels."

      QL ὁ δὲ ἀρνησάμενος με ἐνώπιον τῶν
      ἀνθρώπων ἀπαρνηθήσεται ἐνώπιον τῶν
      ἀγγέλων τοῦ θεοῦ.
      But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of
      God.

      QM ὅστις δὲ ἀρνήσηται με ἔμπροσθεν
      τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ἀρνήσομαι καγὼ αὐτὸν
      ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ πατρός μου τοῦ ἐν τοῖς
      οὐρανοῖς.
      But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father
      in heaven.

      Here Luke is very close to Mark; Matthew is fairly divergent through
      editing, although in the comparable parts he is close. Yet again, in
      the Q material, although the sense is pretty much the same, there is
      divergence.

      3.
      TMt Τότε ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν τοῖς μαθηταῖς
      αὐτοῦ· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου
      ἐλθεῖν, ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ
      ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ
      ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
      Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he
      must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

      TL Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας· εἰ τις θέλει
      ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν
      καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ’
      ἡμέραν καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
      Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny
      himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

      TMk Καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος τὸν ὄχλον σὺν
      τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς·
      εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἐλθεῖν,
      ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν
      σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
      Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If
      anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross
      and follow me.

      QM καὶ ὃς οὐ λαμβάνει τὸν σταυρὸν
      αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀκολουθεῖ ὀπίσω μου, οὐκ
      ἔστιν μου ἄξιος.
      And anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of
      me.

      QL ὅστις οὐ βαστάζει τὸν σταυρὸν
      ἑαυτοῦ καὶ ἔρχεται ὀπίσω μου, οὐ
      δύναται εἶναι μου μαθητής.
      And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my
      disciple.

      Same pattern. Very close (but not identical in this case!) in the
      Triple material, divergent in the Q.

      TMk γὰρ ἐὰν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ
      σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν• ὃς δ᾽ἂν
      ἀπολέσει τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν
      ἐμοῦ καὶ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου σώσει αὐτήν.
      For whosoever will save his life shall lose it and whosoever will lose
      his life for my sake and for the gospel shall find it

      TL ὃς γὰρ ἂν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ
      σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν· ὃς δ' ἂν
      ἀπολέσῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν
      ἐμοῦ οὗτος σώσει αὐτήν.
      (etc)

      TMt ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ
      σῶσαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν· ὃς δ’ ἂν
      ἀπολέσῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν
      ἐμοῦ εὑρήσει αὐτήν·

      QM ὁ εὑρὼν τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἀπολέσει
      αὐτήν, καὶ ὁ ἀπολέσας τὴν ψυχὴν
      αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ εὑρήσει αὐτήν.

      QL ὃς ἐὰν ζητήσῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ
      περιποιήσασθαι ἀπολέσει αὐτήν, ὃς
      δ᾽ἂν ἀπολέσῃ ζῳογονήσει αὐτήν.


      very similar in the T material, verbs diverge in the Q material.
      This is the doublet that Black thinks shows as well as anything
      independent translation (between Luke and Mark) of an Aramaic Vorlage
      - for θέλῃ and ζητήσῃ are translation variants of the same
      Aramaic, as are ζῳογονήσει, σώσει and εὑρήσει.

      5.
      TMt ὅστις οὖν ταπεινώσει ἑαυτὸν ὡς τὸ
      παιδίον τοῦτο, οὗτος ἐστιν ὁ μείζων
      ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν. καὶ ὃς
      ἐὰν δέξηται ἓν παιδίον τοιοῦτο ἐπὶ
      τῷ ὀνόματι μου, ἐμὲ δέχεται.
      Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in
      the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this
      in my name welcomes me.

      TMk ὃς ἂν ἓν τῶν τοιούτων παιδίων
      δέξηται ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι μου, ἐμὲ
      δέχεται καὶ ὃς ἂν ἐμὲ δέχηται, οὐκ
      ἐμὲ δέχεται ἀλλὰ τὸν ἀποστείλαντα
      με.
      Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me;
      and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.

      TL καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· ὃς ἐὰν δέξηται
      τοῦτο τὸ παιδίον ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι μου,
      ἐμὲ δέχεται· καὶ ὃς ἂν ἐμὲ δέξηται,
      δέχεται τὸν ἀποστείλαντα με·
      Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name
      welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.

      QM ὁ δεχόμενος ὑμᾶς ἐμὲ δέχεται καὶ
      ὁ ἐμὲ δεχόμενος δέχεται τὸν
      ἀποστείλαντα με.
      He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the
      one who sent me.

      QL Ὁ ἀκούων ὑμῶν ἐμοῦ ἀκούει, καὶ ὁ
      ἀθετῶν ὑμᾶς ἐμὲ ἀθετεῖ· ὁ δὲ ἐμὲ
      ἀθετῶν ἀθετεῖ τὸν ἀποστείλαντα με.
      He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me;
      but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

      6.
      TMt ὅστις γὰρ ἔχει, δοθήσεται αὐτῷ
      καὶ περισσευθήσεται· ὅστις δὲ οὐκ
      ἔχει, καὶ ὁ ἔχει ἀρθήσεται ἀπ’
      αὐτοῦ.
      Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever
      does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

      TMk ὃς γὰρ ἔχει, δοθήσεται αὐτῷ· καὶ
      ὃς οὐκ ἔχει καὶ ὁ ἔχει ἀρθήσεται
      ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ.
      Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he
      has will be taken from him."

      TL ὃς ἂν γὰρ ἔχῃ, δοθήσεται αὐτῷ·
      καὶ ὃς ἂν μὴ ἔχῃ, καὶ ὁ δοκεῖ ἔχειν
      ἀρθήσεται ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ.
      Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he
      thinks he has will be taken from him.

      QM τῷ γὰρ ἔχοντι παντὶ δοθήσεται καὶ
      περισσευθήσεται, τοῦ δὲ μὴ ἔχοντος
      καὶ ὁ ἔχει ἀρθήσεται ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ.
      For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an
      abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from
      him.

      QL παντὶ δὲ ᾧ ἐδόθη πολύ, πολὺ
      ζητηθήσεται παρ’ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ᾧ
      παρέθεντο πολὺ περισσότερον
      αἰτήσουσιν αὐτόν.
      From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
      from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

      Again, the same pattern.

      The presence of the doublets between Q and triple tradition material
      rather strongly suggests that both Mark and Matthew/Luke used sources,
      although some of them could of course be attestations to "reuse" by
      Jesus of the same saying in different settings.

      When Luke and Matthew have a single Greek source (Mark), they are
      typically similar to very similar to each other, especially in the
      parts where the sense is left the same. But in the case of the Q
      material, they are usually divergent in verbs or adverbs, and yet this
      is for the same sayings in each case. Luke is typically closer to his
      source in the triple material, which is one reason to think that Luke
      preserves the best Q material.

      The issue here is not that different versions of the same saying are
      preserved in the doublet pairs, although that is interesting. Rather,
      it is that Matthew and Luke apparently edit their source material
      differently between the Mark and the Q material, even though they are
      dealing with the same sayings. But this would be very strange. We
      know that Luke rarely alters Mark in transmission in these sayings,
      and Matthew sometimes does. But yet, judged against Luke, Matthew
      always does for the Q material, even in cases when he was happy to let
      the Mark material through unscathed.

      And the conclusion one is pushed to, perhaps, is that the reason their
      procedure looks different is that their source material type was
      different. In Mark, they both have the same Greek text in front of
      them; but this (from these arguments), seems not to be the case for
      the Q versions. Either they have different Greek translations, or
      they are, Maurice Casey-style, independently translating from a Papias-
      like Aramaic source? Alternatively, how is this pattern explained in
      a unified all-Greek Q theory?


      Graham Budd

      Dept Earth Sciences
      Palaeobiology
      Villavägen 16
      Uppsala
      Sweden
      graham.budd©pal.uu.se
    • Ron Price
      ... Jack, I can t comment on Matthew s knowledge of Hebrew, but Matthew s retention of debts could have been for other reasons than his lack of understanding
      Message 35 of 35 , Nov 25, 2009
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        Jack Kilmon wrote:

        > I am convinced that Matthew was neither Aramaic nor Hebrew competent and
        > used Mark and a Q document in translational Greek. Luke, however, was
        > Aramaic competent and used Mark and an Aramaic Q which he translated
        > himself. This is why Luke explains the Hoybyn/"debts"/"sins" idiom in his
        > version of the LP and Matthew does not.

        Jack,

        I can't comment on Matthew's knowledge of Hebrew, but Matthew's retention of
        "debts" could have been for other reasons than his lack of understanding of
        the Aramaic word. Both Matthew and Luke transliterate and thus retain the
        Aramaic words "mammon" (Mt 6:24 // Lk 16:13) and "saton" (Mt 13:33 // Lk
        13:21).

        Also, Matthew's gospel is widely thought to have been written in Antioch of
        Syria. Wasn't the Syrian dialect of Aramaic the main language of that town?
        Wouldn't it follow that Matthew probably had some understanding of Aramaic?

        Ron Price,

        Derbyshire, UK
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