- Charles Schwarz wrote: He [John Lupia] also says Since all four Gospels were written by the Catholic Church by the original eyewitnesses by the authority ofMessage 1 of 12 , Sep 27, 2009View SourceCharles Schwarz wrote:
He [John Lupia] also says "Since all four Gospels were written by the Catholic Church by the original eyewitnesses by the authority of the Church
in concert". None of this is offical Church teaching ...
To be honest, when I read John's words, I thought it was a joke. It really does look like a total cariciature (you know, on the lines of "if St Paul used the KJV, it's good enough for me..."). The problem is that humour doesn't always translate clearly in email, and especially across cultures. He was responding to Leonard Maluflen, who has argued Matthean priority on this list for a very long time, and (while he has himself done so from a clear academic standpoint) has occasionally given the impression that it is or should be RC orthodoxy. His final comments about the feast of St Matthew and "requiescat in pacem" may have been the ones which pressed John's button to make the comment he did.
Perhaps I should have said a long time ago, if you really want to get it right, you have to ask the Methodists. (Grabs coat, and runs for cover...)
Rev Tony Buglass
Upper Calder Methodist Circuit
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- ... Graham, I m sure there is some truth in this. However degree of verbal agreement as a criterion is not as useful as one might think. If there is veryMessage 2 of 12 , Sep 27, 2009View SourceGraham Budd wrote:
> Surely one argument for some sort of Q is that of Bussmann, rehashedGraham,
> entertainingly by Casey: ie that the Q material can be seen to fall
> into two types: one where verbal agreement is tight (implying a common
> Greek source, which could of course be Matthew!) and one where the
> greek agreement is much less close, implying a common non-greek source
> (ie in the mind of both of these authors, an Aramaic source).
I'm sure there is some truth in this. However 'degree of verbal agreement'
as a criterion is not as useful as one might think. If there is very close
and reasonably extensive verbal agreement, we can be confident that the
source was Greek (and Luke could have been using Matthew). But the opposite
is not necessarily true, for a synoptic writer could have chosen to vary
considerably from his source. Also if Luke used Matthew as well as an
Aramaic source (which I believe), and if these sources overlapped (as they
probably did), there may be a few cases in which Matthew had translated a
saying from Aramaic, then Luke made use of Matthew's translation. One such
case seems to be the Signs saying (where the 'Queen of the South' and 'men
of Nineveh' passages are especially closely worded). Matthew's text would
have been open at the right place after copying 'Unclean Spirit' (Mt
12:43-45 // Lk 11:24-26).
A more useful criterion for separation is on the one hand Semitic aphorisms
(indicated e.g. by the use of parallelism), and on the other hand narrative,
and/or the presence of Matthean style in Luke.
> ..... Given thatAnd most other minor agreements, for that matter.
> there is precise linguistic contact in the Passion narrative twice
> ("who was it who struck you?" and "Peter went out and wept
> bitterly"*), the suggestion would be that passion narrative minor
> agreements would be from Matthew, not a Q source.
Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
- Ron s web page does list some of the problems with some of the theories. There are problems esp over minor agreements on the Q view. There are also problemsMessage 3 of 12 , Sep 29, 2009View SourceRon's web page does list some of the problems with
some of the theories.
There are problems esp over minor agreements on the Q view.
There are also problems over why Luke should have done what he did
on the view that Luke used Matthew. To propose the latter
view AND some kind of sayings source retains the second set
of problems and adds the problem of multiplying hypotheses
by positing a further entity.
If I changed my view that the difficulties for Q are less
weighty than the difficulties in holding that Luke used
Matthew, then I think I would go for the latter "straight".
So my first question is why go the trouble of proposing
a further source if one thinks that Luke used Matthew?
My second question is this:
Is it really the case that where there are cogent
arguments for some sort of sayings source these
do not also reveal some of the
difficulties for the view that Luke used Matthew?
David Mealand, University of Edinburgh
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
- ... David, You don t spell out the latter problems. If you refer to Luke s treatment of Matthew s birth and resurrection narratives, then my explanation wouldMessage 4 of 12 , Sep 30, 2009View SourceDavid Mealand wrote:
> There are problems esp over minor agreements on the Q view.David,
> There are also problems over why Luke should have done what he did
> on the view that Luke used Matthew.
You don't spell out the latter problems. If you refer to Luke's treatment of
Matthew's birth and resurrection narratives, then my explanation would be
similar to that provided by advocates of the Farrer Theory.
If you refer to Luke's treatment of the Sermon on the Mount, then my
explanation is different. For on the Three-Source Theory Luke did what any
good scholar would have done, namely to base his document primarily on the
earliest sources available. These were Mark's gospel (ca. 70 CE) for his
narrative, and the logia (ca. 45 CE) for the sayings. Thus his 'destruction'
of Matthew's sermon was simply a side-effect of good practice.
Luke's preference for the Markan order over the Matthean order (Kloppenborg)
was also because Luke had chosen Mark as his primary source for narratives.
> To propose the latterIf this 'further entity' were entirely hypothetical like Q, then you would
> view AND some kind of sayings source retains the second set
> of problems and adds the problem of multiplying hypotheses
> by positing a further entity.
have a valid point here. But the source is historically attested. For the
most natural understanding of Papias' "logia" or 'oracles' is that it was a
collection of sayings attributed to Jesus. I am aware that Kloppenborg calls
Papias' statement "legendary at best" ("Excavating Q", p.80). But I can't
help thinking that his conclusion was influenced by the fact that it doesn't
match his deduction of a Q which originated in Greek.
This last deduction was based mainly on texts which the Three-Source Theory
can take as cases of Luke copying Matthew directly. Thus for example the
Temptation story with its quotations from the Septuagint, the only two
probable cases of genitive absolute (Mt 11:7 par.; Mt 9:33 par.), and the
majority of passages with a high degree of verbal agreement, all occur in
texts which I assign to Luke's direct dependence on Matthew. The removal of
such texts as candidates for the sayings source will almost certainly
undermine any case against the translation hypothesis. The remainder of the
Double Tradition texts will be seen to be aphorisms, many of which exhibit
Semitic parallelism, and a few of which exhibit either paronomasia, or signs
of mistranslation in the Greek of Matthew and/or Luke. There is thus no bar
to their Aramaic origin, and no reason to disparage Papias' statement.
> If I changed my view that the difficulties for Q are lessOn the page cited below under "Evidence that Luke also used a sayings
> weighty than the difficulties in holding that Luke used
> Matthew, then I think I would go for the latter "straight".
> So my first question is why go the trouble of proposing
> a further source if one thinks that Luke used Matthew?
source" I've given a set of reasons for thinking there was a sayings source,
and longer set indicating Luke's use of it. Even if the odd reason is
rejected, the cumulative set of reasons is surely weighty.
> My second question is this:Not as far as I know. On the contrary, positing that the Double Tradition
> Is it really the case that where there are cogent
> arguments for some sort of sayings source these
> do not also reveal some of the
> difficulties for the view that Luke used Matthew?
was dual-sourced not only leads to the solution of the main problems
associated with both the 2ST and the FT, but by removing the barriers to an
Aramaic source it opens up again a perspective which has been gradually
stifled during the last 50 years or so, and brings to light a crucial
historical link between the Aramaic-speaking Jesus community in Jerusalem
and the authors of the Greek-language synoptic gospels.