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What is the early evidence for Luke chapters 1-3?

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  • David @ Comcast
    What evidence is there (mss, patristic references, anything else) for the early existence of Luke chapters 1-3? To put it another way round, how far back in
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 18 11:35 AM
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      What evidence is there (mss, patristic references, anything else) for the
      early existence of Luke chapters 1-3? To put it another way round, how far
      back in time can we trace the existence of these specific chapters?



      David Inglis

      Lafayette, CA, 94549





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Chuck Jones
      As far back as we can trace chapters 3 - 24. Rev. Chuck JonesAtlanta, Georgia ... From: David @ Comcast Subject: [Synoptic-L] What
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 18 11:39 AM
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        As far back as we can trace chapters 3 - 24.
        Rev. Chuck JonesAtlanta, Georgia

        --- On Tue, 8/18/09, David @ Comcast <davidinglis2@...> wrote:

        From: David @ Comcast <davidinglis2@...>
        Subject: [Synoptic-L] What is the early evidence for Luke chapters 1-3?
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 2:35 PM













         





        What evidence is there (mss, patristic references, anything else) for the

        early existence of Luke chapters 1-3? To put it another way round, how far

        back in time can we trace the existence of these specific chapters?



        David Inglis



        Lafayette, CA, 94549



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




































        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David @ Comcast
        Perhaps I could ask the question in a slightly different form: What early references are there to the contents of Luke chapters 1-3? David Inglis _____ From:
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 18 12:50 PM
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          Perhaps I could ask the question in a slightly different form: What early
          references are there to the contents of Luke chapters 1-3?



          David Inglis



          _____

          From: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Synoptic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Chuck Jones
          Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:39 AM
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] What is the early evidence for Luke chapters 1-3?

          As far back as we can trace chapters 3 - 24.
          Rev. Chuck JonesAtlanta, Georgia

          --- On Tue, 8/18/09, David @ Comcast <davidinglis2@
          <mailto:davidinglis2%40comcast.net> comcast.net> wrote:

          From: David @ Comcast <davidinglis2@ <mailto:davidinglis2%40comcast.net>
          comcast.net>
          Subject: [Synoptic-L] What is the early evidence for Luke chapters 1-3?
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroup <mailto:Synoptic%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
          Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 2:35 PM

          What evidence is there (mss, patristic references, anything else) for the

          early existence of Luke chapters 1-3? To put it another way round, how far

          back in time can we trace the existence of these specific chapters?

          David Inglis

          Lafayette, CA, 94549

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Stephen C. Carlson
          ... Off the top of my head, Justin Martyr and the protevangelium of James in the mid second century. Stephen -- Stephen C. Carlson Ph.D. student, Religion,
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 18 1:10 PM
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            On Aug 18, 2009 3:50 PM, "David @ Comcast" <davidinglis2@...> wrote:
            >Perhaps I could ask the question in a slightly different form: What early
            >references are there to the contents of Luke chapters 1-3?

            Off the top of my head, Justin Martyr and the protevangelium of James
            in the mid second century.

            Stephen

            --
            Stephen C. Carlson
            Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
            Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
          • E Bruce Brooks
            To: Synoptic In Response To: Dave Inglis On: Evidence for Lk 1-3 From: Bruce That s an interesting way to ask the question. Why exactly 1-3? 1. I would have
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 18 1:51 PM
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              To: Synoptic
              In Response To: Dave Inglis
              On: Evidence for Lk 1-3
              From: Bruce

              That's an interesting way to ask the question. Why exactly 1-3?

              1. I would have expected Lk 1-2, given that a very plausible original
              beginning for Lk exists at Lk 3:1. The question would then be: at what point
              was Lk 1-2 added? I can't see that anything is made of it in the rest of
              Lk-Acts; rather the contrary. So it is not part of Lk's Jerusalem-Rome
              master plan. It certainly leaves the corresponding part of Mt literarily
              nowhere, and it has the same faint recollection of Mt's wording at the part
              where they make contact at all, as is seen elsewhere when Lk is writing
              freely, so I don't consider it necessarily alien to Luke's procedures, but
              still, when can we prove it was there? There is of course no counterpart
              here in John, so that possibility is out. I can't answer the question.

              2. More generally, can we give a terminus ante quem for anything in Lk? Are
              any of the John parallels helpful, that is, do they include wording which,
              among the Synoptics, could have come only from Lk? Yes, but not many.

              2a. Thus, in the Nazareth episode, John has "Is this not Jesus, the son of
              Joseph? Mk has "the carpenter, the son of Mary, and Mt has "the son of the
              carpenter," whereas Lk has "Is this not Joseph's son?" The above Mk/Mt
              passages are the only places in the Gospels where the word "carpenter" is
              used. Perhaps it was too realistic for Luke, and also for John.

              2b. Again, in the story of the woman and the ointment, Mk/Mt lack a detail
              which Lk has, and Jn also has, namely that the woman wiped Jesus's feet with
              her hair.

              But the latter is a matter of pious legend, something that any late 1c
              writer could have known without taking Luke off the shelf, and one hesitates
              to put any very heavy weight on it.

              2c. In the Gethsemane scene, Mk/Mt have one of the Jesus party cutting off
              the ear of one of the arresting party; Lk specifies the right ear, and so
              does Jn.

              2d. The burial of Jesus was specified in Lk as the Day of the Preparation,
              and so does Jn.

              2e. Only Lk of the Synoptics has Peter run to the tomb and "stoop to look
              in;" so also Jn.

              2f. There are several spots in the Recognition scene, as when Jesus suddenly
              appears and says "Peace to you." Thus Lk, also Jn. The latter adds that the
              doors were shut at the time. He leaves out Lk's detail about the fish;
              perhaps too vulgar. Or too clinical.

              3. All in all, I would say that there is a case that Jn knew Lk, and was a
              little more comfortable in Lk's company when nobody else (Mk, Mt) was
              around, but was shy to the point of contrary elsewhere.

              4. I thus come out with the idea that the sequence Lk > Jn can be
              maintained, not only as temporal, but as literarily related. This however
              does not apply to the exiguous material in Lk 1-2.

              For which I join with Dave in awaiting any further suggestions.

              Bruce

              E Bruce Brooks
              Warring States Project
              University of Massachusetts at Amherst
            • Dennis Dean Carpenter
              Justin seems to use Matthew in his first apology, chapter 33. He seems to be using Luke in the next chapter: .And hear what part of earth He was to be born
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 18 2:09 PM
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                Justin seems to use Matthew in his first apology, chapter 33. He seems to be using Luke in the next chapter: ".And hear what part of earth He was to be born in, as another prophet, Micah, foretold. He spoke thus: "And thou, Bethlehem, the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a Governor, who shall feed My people."(5) Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judaea." He doesn't seem to mention "Luke" as a gospel or as a gospeleer.

                Dennis Dean Carpenter
                Dahlonega, Ga.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Stephen C. Carlson
                To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com ; Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:10 PM
                Subject: RE: [Synoptic-L] What is the early evidence for Luke chapters 1-3?


                On Aug 18, 2009 3:50 PM, "David @ Comcast" <davidinglis2@...> wrote:
                >Perhaps I could ask the question in a slightly different form: What early
                >references are there to the contents of Luke chapters 1-3?

                Off the top of my head, Justin Martyr and the protevangelium of James
                in the mid second century.

                Stephen

                --
                Stephen C. Carlson
                Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)




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              • David @ Comcast
                BRUCE: That s an interesting way to ask the question. Why exactly 1-3? DAVID I: I m looking for evidence of any of these 3 chapters prior to Marcion s gospel,
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 18 2:29 PM
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                  BRUCE: That's an interesting way to ask the question. Why exactly 1-3?



                  DAVID I: I'm looking for evidence of any of these 3 chapters prior to
                  Marcion's gospel, in order to try to figure out whether Marcion is likely to
                  have known these chapters or not.



                  David Inglis

                  Lafayette, CA, 94549



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                • David Mealand
                  As well as Justin Apol. 34, J.M.Creed cites Dial. 78, 88, 100, 103, 105 and 106 in a footnote to the dating section in the intro to his commentary on Luke,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 19 7:07 AM
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                    As well as Justin Apol. 34, J.M.Creed cites Dial. 78, 88,
                    100, 103, 105 and 106 in a footnote to the dating section
                    in the intro to his commentary on Luke, where he lists
                    passages from Luke 1-3 (and from later) as used by Justin.

                    Quite a bit later, of course, we have p75 and p4
                    see NA 27 pp 684 & 688, both have bits of Luke 1-3.

                    David M.


                    ---------
                    David Mealand, University of Edinburgh


                    --
                    The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
                    Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
                  • Emmanuel Fritsch
                    ... A well known argument on gospels datation is : since there is a prediction of Jerusalem fall, the stuff was writen after the fall. But I liked also the
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 21 2:56 AM
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                      > 2. More generally, can we give a terminus ante quem for
                      > anything in Lk?

                      A well known argument on gospels datation is : since there is a
                      prediction of Jerusalem fall, the stuff was writen after the fall. But I
                      liked also the reverted argument : Is the description of Jerusalem fall
                      fitting the real one ? If not, then the stuff is prior to the fall.

                      Who buy it ?

                      > Are any of the John parallels helpful,
                      > that is, do they include wording which,
                      > among the Synoptics, could have come only
                      > from Lk? Yes, but not many.
                      > [..]
                      > 2a. - 2b. - 2c. - 2d. - 2e. - 2f.

                      If I well remember, Boismard listed many other John-Luke connections,
                      using previous older references. See his proto-Luke.

                      > 3. All in all, I would say that there is a case that Jn
                      > knew Lk, and was a little more comfortable in Lk's company
                      > when nobody else (Mk, Mt) was around, but was shy to the
                      > point of contrary elsewhere.

                      Or Luke and John shared a common source.

                      a+
                      manu
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