Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Outside Documents

Expand Messages
  • E Bruce Brooks
    To: Synoptic Cc: GPG In Response To: Chuck Jones On: Outside Documents From: Bruce CHUCK: . . . documents that are included or mentioned in the NT that are no
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 16, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      To: Synoptic
      Cc: GPG
      In Response To: Chuck Jones
      On: Outside Documents
      From: Bruce

      CHUCK: . . . documents that are included or mentioned in the NT that are no
      longer extant outside of the NT. Off the top of my head:

      BRUCE: I venture to annotate and supplement, in [brackets; the asterisk is
      an agreed non-NT entity]:

      *[Paul's list of church order Dominical Sayings: my earlier suggestion]

      2 additional letters to the Corinthians
      [Considered by some to be conflated with existing Corinthians]

      Letter to the Laodiceans
      [Marcion's name for Ephesians, no?]

      *a travel narrative in Acts (the "we" passages)
      [Status still controversial, but maybe]

      a signs source for John
      [I would consider it John's original conception]

      *[Gospel of the Ebionites]

      *a hymn text in Philippians
      [There are many more in other Epistles]

      *[Baptismal rituals]

      *[Set prayers and litanies]

      a stand-alone copy of the post-script, Jn 21
      *[Probably original with the John interpolator, but owes something to the
      tradition behind the Gospel of Peter, which latter can count on the present
      list]

      *a stand-alone copy of the woman caught in adultery episode
      [Seems to be attached variously, and in that sense independent]

      *[Doxology in Romans: same situation, same answer]

      the "many accounts" referred to in Lk's prologue
      [Not identifiable, in part probably Mark and Matthew]

      the "many other things Jesus did" which by John's choice "are not written
      here"
      [Probably an irenic acknowledgement of Thomas in particular]

      All told, of things with some external reality, I count 9 more or less
      identifiable non-Gospel items, including some things that are more rituals
      than texts, but are capable of interacting with the textual sphere. Some of
      the 9 are categories rather than singles (eg, Gospel of Ebionites, the
      Philippians hymn). Some of the Thomas people find sources for Thomas too.
      Depends where you start. There was in any case a lot going on.


      Bruce

      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project
      University of Massachusetts at Amherst
    • Chuck Jones
      Bruce,   Excellent additional examples.  A couple of nits:   1.  John refers to many other signs Jesus did, so that would not, I guess, be a referene to
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 16, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Bruce,
         
        Excellent additional examples.  A couple of nits:
         
        1.  John refers to many other signs Jesus did, so that would not, I guess, be a referene to Thomas as it is a sayings document.
        2.  The  letter to the Laodiceans is metioned in Col. 4:16:  "And when this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and see that you read also the letter from Laodicea."
         
        My (very patient) friends tell me I would have made a great litigator.  Cause my next question is simply to ask again:  Why in the hell do we attribute pericopes in M and L (and Mk) to free composition or oral tradition simply because the (source) documents are lost?  That they are lost puts them in very good company--the company of every other document mentioned or included in the NT!

        Rev. Chuck Jones
        Atlanta, Georgia
        ___________________________________

        Bruce Brooks wrote:

        CHUCK: . . . documents that are included or mentioned in the NT that are no
        longer extant outside of the NT. Off the top of my head:

        BRUCE: I venture to annotate and supplement, in [brackets; the asterisk is
        an agreed non-NT entity]:

        *[Paul's list of church order Dominical Sayings: my earlier suggestion]

        2 additional letters to the Corinthians
        [Considered by some to be conflated with existing Corinthians]

        Letter to the Laodiceans
        [Marcion's name for Ephesians, no?]

        *a travel narrative in Acts (the "we" passages)
        [Status still controversial, but maybe]

        a signs source for John
        [I would consider it John's original conception]

        *[Gospel of the Ebionites]

        *a hymn text in Philippians
        [There are many more in other Epistles]

        *[Baptismal rituals]

        *[Set prayers and litanies]

        a stand-alone copy of the post-script, Jn 21
        *[Probably original with the John interpolator, but owes something to the
        tradition behind the Gospel of Peter, which latter can count on the present
        list]

        *a stand-alone copy of the woman caught in adultery episode
        [Seems to be attached variously, and in that sense independent]

        *[Doxology in Romans: same situation, same answer]

        the "many accounts" referred to in Lk's prologue
        [Not identifiable, in part probably Mark and Matthew]

        the "many other things Jesus did" which by John's choice "are not written
        here"
        [Probably an irenic acknowledgement of Thomas in particular]

        All told, of things with some external reality, I count 9 more or less
        identifiable non-Gospel items, including some things that are more rituals
        than texts, but are capable of interacting with the textual sphere. Some of
        the 9 are categories rather than singles (eg, Gospel of Ebionites, the
        Philippians hymn). Some of the Thomas people find sources for Thomas too.
        Depends where you start. There was in any case a lot going on.

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst



















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Emmanuel Fritsch
        Some observations, independant from what I mean about no longer extant documents. ... Boismard says Laodiceans has been conflated with Colossians. His
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 18, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Some observations, independant from what I mean about no longer extant
          documents.

          > Letter to the Laodiceans
          > [Marcion's name for Ephesians, no?]

          Boismard says Laodiceans has been conflated with Colossians. His
          reconstruction
          of Laod. is focused on baptism.

          > *a stand-alone copy of the woman caught in adultery episode
          > [Seems to be attached variously, and in that sense independent]

          Are you sur ?
          It is usually described as typical from Luke, but placed in John.

          > *a hymn text in Philippians
          > [There are many more in other Epistles]

          Hymn should have been oral liturgy.
          But whatever the case, it is not a prima facie evidency : it comes from
          the critics who said "it is a liturgical hymn", as they may say "it is a
          john-the-baptist document" (in Luke 1-2) or "it is a travel diary" (in
          Acts).

          Prima facie evidency are when according-a-gospeler-Jesus says "It is
          written that", or Paul writes : "Read my letter to Laodiceans".

          Emmanuel.
        • E Bruce Brooks
          To: Synoptic Cc: GPG In Response To: Emmanuel Fritsch On: Pericope Adulterae and Others I had commented on someone else s list of texts (possible sources for
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 18, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            To: Synoptic
            Cc: GPG
            In Response To: Emmanuel Fritsch
            On: Pericope Adulterae and Others

            I had commented on someone else's list of texts (possible sources for Luke),
            and Manu had added some questions of his own. I here respond as best I can
            with materials presently at hand.

            EF: Some observations, independent from what I mean about no longer extant
            documents.

            EBB (List): Letter to the Laodiceans: [Marcion's name for Ephesians, no?]

            EF: Boismard says Laodiceans has been conflated with Colossians. His
            reconstruction of Laod. is focused on baptism.

            EBB (Now): What is the reference? It might be interesting. Baptism is late
            in Christian history; Mark has no trace of it, other than a metaphor; gJn
            remarks that Jesus did not baptize, only his disciples, which I take to be
            correct. Paul mentions it now and then as something done in his time. which
            does not contradict the preceding. Ephesians and Colossians, once each (Eph
            4:5, Col 2:12). Consistent with preceding. Boismard finds several baptismal
            hymns embedded in 1 Pet, which is perhaps late enough to fit the apparent
            trajectory. So is the second layer of the Didache, as I see it. I have the
            sense that when finally understood, all these will fit together in a good
            witness to the development, and eventual centrality, of baptism among the
            early Christians.

            EBB (List): *a stand-alone copy of the woman caught in adultery episode
            [Seems to be attached variously, and in that sense independent]

            EF: Are you sure? It is usually described as typical from Luke, but placed
            in John.

            EBB: Pretty sure. Family 13 and a few assorted papyri (none earlier than
            10c) put the Pericope Adulterae at the end of Lk 21. Where its lead-in line
            seems to fit pretty well as a situational identifier; some words in the PA
            are also easily seen as Lukan, but not as Johannine. Where it is mostly
            placed in Jn (as 7:53-8:11), it seems to interrupt the flow of the
            surrounding units. The implication is that it was originally in a reasonably
            concinnitous position in Lk, but was dislodged from there and wound up in an
            inconcinnitous position in Jn. There are two things wrong with this picture:

            (a) the dates of the texts run the wrong way: the PA turns up in Bezae (4c
            or 5c, and at some points preserving a very early text) about half a
            millennium earlier than it turns up in Jn (Family 13 etc, abovementioned).

            (b) placement in Jn is variable; in addition to the most familiar one, it is
            also placed after Jn 7:36, after Jn 7:44, after Jn 21:25, that is, at the
            end of the Gospel.

            There seems to be uncertainty about where it should go, but a consensus that
            it should go somewhere in John. The still later placement in Luke may be
            another attempt to find a fitting home for it. One more fitting than any of
            the previous tries, and the enigma is, why? No answer at this moment. But I
            think it may be agreed that the unit is flexible in placement, much in the
            manner of the Doxology in Romans, which was my earlier point. No?

            EBB (List): *a hymn text in Philippians [There are many more in other
            Epistles]

            EF: Hymn should have been oral liturgy.

            EBB (Now): To me, same difference, though if we are going to distinguish the
            terms, the metrical regularity of the one in Philippians suggests a hymn.
            The point for me is that (a) there are many of them, and (b) they do not all
            imply the same theology, meaning, the same theory of Jesus. Some seem very
            early in this respect, which I take to mean that at least the beginnings of
            hymnology (surely on the model of the Psalms and kindred things; no real
            innovation here) was very early in early Christian development; certainly
            earlier than baptism, on which see above. My present guess is that the
            impetus for hymnody was the line in Mark that describes how the disciples at
            [what later came to be called] the Last Supper sang a hymn before going out.
            As more and more ritual came to be based on that event, the description of
            the event in Mark expanded to more or less keep pace, or at least to
            maintain countenance.

            EF: But whatever the case, it is not a prima facie evidency : it comes from
            the critics who said "it is a liturgical hymn", as they may say "it is a
            john-the-baptist document" (in Luke 1-2) or "it is a travel diary" (in
            Acts). /
            Prima facie evidency are when according-a-gospeler-Jesus says "It is written
            that", or Paul writes : "Read my letter to Laodiceans".

            EBB: There are many inclusions in these texts, including the great majority
            of the OT echoes, that are not specifically credited to sources. The NT
            writers are not following the SBL Style Manual. I have the impression that
            when any Gospel character quotes a specific source, it is not because of the
            SBL Style Manual, but because mentioning that source (Moses, David, "a word
            of the Lord") gives that quote much more authority for the hearers. Paul
            does not say to the Philippians, "As you have it in your familiar hymn," he
            just echoes the words of the hymn, knowing that they will recognize it, and
            thus that it will add to the texture and effect of what he is saying.

            Even if he disagrees with its theological content. Paul is an interesting
            study in adaptive rhetoric, a useful trait in a professional persuader.

            Sywndz would have hated it, but then, Sywndz hated pretty much everybody.
            And he was no courtier either; he was an isolated ethical purist. What for
            others at that time was a term for reasonable administrative leeway and
            discretion (chywaen) is for him the grossest expediency, equal in its
            deleterious social effect to literal rebellion (with which, more often than
            not in his works, it is verbally paired). Sywndz didn't like "give" in the
            chain of command. Paul, by all accounts including his own, liked to operate
            on a rather long leash.

            To what great effect, every schoolchild knows.

            Bruce

            E Bruce Brooks
            Warring States Project
            University of Massachusetts at Amherst
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.