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[Synoptic-L] Re: The Time Depth of Mark

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  • Dave Gentile
    Chuck, Before this dissolves into just trading insults... What point are you trying to defend? 1) It is possible that Luke has sources for L 2) Using
    Message 1 of 54 , Jun 8, 2009
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      Chuck,

      Before this dissolves into just trading insults...

      What point are you trying to defend?

      1) It is possible that Luke has sources for "L"

      2) Using rational-empirical criteria the idea that Luke had sources for "L" is better than all proposed competing models.

      3) Based on rational-empirical criteria neither idea can be judged to be clearly superior.

      4) Some other point.

      Secondly, you could try to produce evidence for your idea. For example when Luke used Mark, Mark's style does show through in part. The same for Matthew. Luke has his own style and word choices, and these show up both in the ways he edits his sources, and in sondergut Luke. If there is another written source behind "L", we might be able to detect its style and vocabulary.

      Another idea would be to try to show that something in "L" fits better with the time of the historical Jesus than Luke's time and agenda. Even better, what if something in "L" worked against Luke's agenda?

      Any of these could possibly alter the conclusion.

      As far as Luke continuing to do the same thing throughout, just copying, rearranging, and making minor changes - do we have other examples of authors doing this in the ancient world? Certainly in an oral culture, or one very little removed from it, Luke would have countless examples of oral story-telling to draw from, where a good story-teller not only molded his material but could extend it with "new adventures" of the same old familiar characters. The modern genera of "fan-fiction" comes to mind. fans of TV shows write their own stories. There are certain canonical elements which must be present, but fans are free to extend this in multiple directions (unless the corporate lawyers come after them for copyright infringement).

      Dave Gentile
      Riverside, IL
    • Dave Gentile
      Chuck, But there might be something of a common selection factor at work in what Luke would choose to use and what might survive. If Luke thinks a written
      Message 54 of 54 , Jun 10, 2009
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        Chuck,

        But there might be something of a common selection factor at work in what Luke would choose to use and what might survive. If Luke thinks a written account is important enough to copy, then he and others might think this account is worth preserving. On the other hand, if Luke thinks another existing account is trivial nonsense worth ignoring, then others may also be so inclined in which case we are not surprised that it failed to survive 2000 years of history.

        So the question is not so much about contemporary accounts. We know for example that some later non-canonical accounts exist, and anybody can take pen to paper and write something, if they are so inclined, at any time. The question is really about accounts that from Luke's point of view are historical or at least of value enough to Luke that he would think them worthy of being copied, but yet are lost to us.

        Returning to a point from a previous note:

        New jokes are composed everyday. Old ones get passed around, but every so often you hear a new one. Could not the same be true of stories of Jesus? If this were the case the collection would be larger each time someone wrote them down. I think we can see this process at work. Early Mark has a small collection. This collection grows as Mark grows. Down the road we see a larger collection in Matthew, and a little farther along a still larger collection in Luke.

        P.S. While I am also enjoying the conversation, I now have actual work to do. Thus at some time soon expect me to either drop out of conversation for awhile, or at least have diminished output…

        Dave Gentile
        Riverside, IL




        Dave Gentile
        Riverside, IL




        --- In Synoptic@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Jones <chuckjonez@...> wrote:
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        > Dave,
        >  
        > I mention Lk's reference to make a single, narrow point.  Many accounts existed, new or old.  Whether Lk used them or not, almost all of these accounts *did not survive and are no longer extant.*  This means that *most* of the written accounts of Jesus did not survive.  Which means one is taking no leap at all--quite the opposite--if one concludes there was a Q, or an M source, or an L source, or a Mk source.
        >  
        > I hope this makes sense.
        >  
        > Rev. Chuck Jones
        > Atlanta, Georgia
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        > --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Dave Gentile <gentile_dave@...> wrote:
        >
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        > From: Dave Gentile <gentile_dave@...>
        > Subject: [Synoptic-L] Re: The Time Depth of Mark
        > To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 12:26 PM
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        > Chuck wrote: Also, separately, how do you square your model with Lk's own mention that many have produced written accounts of Jesus? His comment has been, in fact, fundamental to me in my thinking on this stuff.
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        > Dave: I think the question of how many accounts Luke is aware of and how many accounts Luke thinks are wroth considering enough to copy are two separate questions. If Luke thinks the guy in the rival congregation in the next town just wrote a gospel yesterday, this will count towards those "many" who have undertaken this but won't count as a written source for Luke.
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        > I see this in his attitude towards Matthew and Mark. He sees Mark as an old source that has been around for awhile and he will largely copy it. Matthew? Well, that's a newcomer on the scene. He would not even bother with it except for the fact that it has a claim to a providence of an interview with the disciple Matthew. Thus the gospel of Matthew will be worth extracting things from, but not copying. The proto-John guys who just wrote their gospel yesterday? They will be ignored.
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        > At least that would be my account of Luke's environment and thought process.
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        > Dave Gentile
        > Riverside, IL
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