Re: [Synoptic-L] Enoch
I am in agreement with the importance you place on Enoch in Yeshuine Judaism, but the only stumbling block for me is the fact that Enoch 37 - 71 does not appear in the DSS, leading to the possibility that these chapters are later perhaps than 30AD. It is suspicious also in my view that "the Son of Man " concept is perhaps too well developed in Matthew and may be a post facto interpretational development.. I look forward to your comments.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Kilmon
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] The James Nonsense
----- Original Message -----
From: "archeboc" <Emmanuel.Fritsch@...>
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] The James Nonsense
>> THE METAQUESTION
>> Never mind us: was Jesus himself concerned to distance himself from
> What is Judaism ?
> After your point against "James", we should be urged to avoid "Judaism".
> Sure "Israel" is more accurate, and should be prefered.
> I agree that "Jesus, a marginal Israelite", sound less. But why does the
> other one sound it more ? Does not its cooler flavor come from the
> confusion about judaism ?
> As a matter of fact, we may even state, with all disclamers due to
> uncertainties on his actual position, that his deprecation of temple
> places Jesus amongst the precursor of Judaism.
There is a prevalent mindset that "Judaism" in ancient Palestine was a
monolithic, solid set of beliefs not unlike modern Judaism, less temple
sacrifice. The few totally disparate examples given by Josephus may be the
tip ofthe iceberg. There is also an automatic tendency to link Jesus with
the temple-based Mosaic Judaism of the Pharisees. We are familiar with two
subsets of Pharisaic Judaism represented by the Beyt Hillel and the Beyt
Shammai. I think there are a number of not very subtle clues that Jesus was
a certified card carrying member of another subset of Pharisaic Judaism
based on the Daniel-Enochian literature corpus, non-Mosaic and, if not
anti-nomian, very liberal.
Forgive me for the length of this but I consider it important and also, as
the "follow the Aramaic" guy,
for use of "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus."
There is a ton of literature on Yeshua's use of his self-description as the
bar nasha (Son of Man) and disagreements on what that meant. If the Dead
Sea Scroll corpus is a good barometer, the late 2nd temple period saw an
emergence of Daniel-Enochian fervor. In both Daniel and the Enochian
literature, the "son of man" plays a central role.
Yeshua himself, NOT ONCE, refers to himself with certainty as the Messiah
but instead refers to himself as the bar nasha/ben adam of Daniel and
Enoch..."coming on the clouds, etc." It was Paul of Tarsus...hostile to the
Nazarenes, who conferred the name of XRISTOS on Yeshua in his reconstruction
of Yeshua as the Pauline "Christ Crucified."
The cradle from which both Jewish and Christian "mysticism" arose was
Enochian apocalypticism, the same cradle from which post-destruction Ma'asei
Merkavah (which would eventually develop into Kabbala) and the Hekhalot
literature arose which deals with "mystical" ascents into heaven.
Anyone pursuing the ancient Jewish sources from which the Nazarenes arose,
should read the considerable Enochian literary corpus now available thanks
to the Qumran texts. The Books of Enoch and their related texts, Jubilees,
Giants, Weeks, Parables, Watchers, Testimonies of the 12 Patriarchs, Dreams,
etc. Enochian apocalypticism is a reflection of a Mesopotamian alternative
to Mosaic" Judaism with its focus on Enmeduranki, the 7th antediluvian king
of Sippar in the Sumerian Chronicles and a counterpart (or model) for Enoch.
There was a considerable influence by Zoroastrianism on Judaism as a result
to the Babylonian Captivity after which they brought the Enochian traditions
to Jerusalem upon the return. The Jerusalem priests at that time hated the
Enochian Jews (and it is my position that Jesus was an Enochian Jew) who
supported the Maccabees thereby gaining favor with the Hasmoneans. These
Enochian Jews became, IMO, the Essenes who subsequently developed serious
issues with the Hasmonean priest-kings. I don't think anyone would argue
that the Dead Sea Scrolls are not strongly Enochian.
The Jewish Nazarenes ("branchers") were heirs, IMO, to the Enochian
traditions but Gentile Christianity imported a constellation of influences
from Graeco-Roman sources. That Enochian Judaism was alternative to Mosaic
nomian Judaeism can explain why Paul appears anti-nomian and why Enoch was
not included in the Rabbinical canon.
Quoted in the Book of Jude:
"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute
judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And
of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Other references to the SON OF MAN in Enoch:
"And there I saw One who had a head of days, And His head was white like
wool, And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of
a man, And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. 2
And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things,
concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he
went with the Ancient of Days? And he answered and said unto me: This
is the Son of Man who hath righteousness, With whom dwelleth righteousness,
And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden, Because the
Lord of Hosts hath chosen him, And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before
the Lord of Hosts in uprightness for ever." (Part 8 Chapter 46:1-3)
1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness Which was
inexhaustible: And around it were many fountains of wisdom: And all the
thirsty drank of them, And were filled with wisdom, And their dwellings were
with the righteous and holy and elect. 2 And at that hour that Son of Man
was named In the presence of the Lord of Hosts, And his name before the
Ancient of Days. 3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before
the stars of the heaven were made, His name
was named before the Lord of Hosts. 4 He shall be a staff to the righteous
whereon to stay themselves and not fall, And he shall be the light of the
Gentiles, And the hope of those who are troubled of heart. 5 All who dwell
on earth shall fall down and worship before him, And will praise and bless
and celebrate with song the Lord of Hosts. 6 And for this reason hath he
been chosen and hidden before Him, Before the creation of the world and for
evermore. 7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Hosts hath revealed him to the
holy and righteous; For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous, Because
they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, And have hated
all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Hosts: For in his name
they are saved, And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to
their life. (Part 8 Chapter 48:1-7)
The Book of Daniel, like Enoch, was written originally in Aramaic. It
contains the most famous reference to the SON OF MAN.
Daniel 7:13-14 (WEB)
13 חזה הוית בחזוי ליליא וארו עם־ענני שׁמיא כבר אנשׁ אתה הוה ועד־עתיק יומיא
מטה וקדמוהי הקרבוהי׃ 14 ולה יהיב שׁלטן ויקר ומלכו וכל עממיא אמיא ולשׁניא לה
יפלחון שׁלטנה שׁלטן עלם די־לא יעדה ומלכותה פ
13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of
the sky one like a son of man (כבר אנש [kibar 'anash]), and he came even to
the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 There was
given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations,
and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
Yeshua spoke of himself, just as above in Daniel, at Matthew 24:30 And
then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all
the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in
the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
.....and at Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting
on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
As you can see, Yeshua refers to himself as the SON OF MAN (Aramaic bar
nasha) of Daniel and Enoch andnot, IMO, as simply the bar nash/a idiom for
"just a guy."
Now let's see how many times Yeshua calls himself the bar nasha (son of
man)...he never referred to himself with certainty or non-cryptically as
Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds
of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his]
Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to
forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy
bed, and go unto thine house.
Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into
another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities
of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold
a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But
wisdom is justified of her children.
Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall
be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not
be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's
belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart
of the earth.
Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
is the Son of man;
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall
gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do
Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked
his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them,
saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from
Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew
him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also
the Son of man suffer of them.
Matthew 17:22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son
of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye
which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in
the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the
twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be
betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn
him to death,
Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to
minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even
unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son
of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (this is
right out of Enoch 7)
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of
the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think
not the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour
wherein the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover,
and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto
that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man
if he had not been born.
Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep
on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of
Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto
you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Yeshua is reported by Matthew alone to have claimed to have been the SON OF
MAN (bar nasha) of Daniel and Enoch THIRTY TIMES....so why don't we believe
him? Why do we believe Paul of Tarsus instead?
An Enochian Jew, in the late second temple period, is one who believed in
the Enochian apocalyptic such as the Essenes and Yohanan haMatbil.
Jesus/Yeshua was indeed, IMO, an apocalyptic herald of the imminent malkutha
d'alaha (Kingdom of God) in the Enochian tradition and, as such, outside of
"normative" Mosaic Judaism. I think there are other indicators that this
"Son of Man" from the ancient of days could be "Lord of the Sabbath" as well
as the Mosaic laws (seen in the formula "It is written" or "You have
heard"...ABC "but *I* tell you"...XYZ).
So yes, he was apocalyptic but, in his mind, just not a "sage" but THE bar
nasha that was expected by Yohanan/John (Matthew 11:3), the apocalyptic
redeemer of Daniel 7:13-14.
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