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Re: [Synoptic-L] proto-Matthew and Q

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  • Jack Kilmon
    I think you are correct regarding the difference between logia and logoi. I believe Papias, who often was confused about things he reported, was referring to
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 12, 2009
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      I think you are correct regarding the difference between logia and logoi. I
      believe Papias, who often was confused about things he reported, was
      referring to the gospel the Nazarenes called "Mattay"or "Matthew" which we
      know as the Gospel of the Hebrews. Written in Aramaic by, according to the
      Nazarenes, the real Matthew...the disciple..only about 10 fragments exist.
      I do not believe there was a "proto-Matthew." I think source and form
      criticism shows us that Canonical Matthew used Greek translations of Aramaic
      source materials, one of which was "Q." It is my opinion that Luke directly
      translated Aramaic Q. Since both Matthew and Luke used Mark as a template
      one could claim Mark as"proto-Matthew."

      Jack Kilmon
      San Antonio, TX


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jeff Peterson" <peterson@...>
      To: <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:58 PM
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] proto-Matthew and Q


      > Jimmy,
      >
      > This reflects a common misinterpretation of the term logia as
      > "sayings." Papias characterizes logia as "the things either said or
      > done by the Lord" and treats Matthew and Mark as presentations of the
      > logia (the former better organized than the latter); i.e., the books
      > that Papias understands to embody the logia are narrative gospels.
      > Logia is better translated "oracles" or "divine teachings" in Papias.
      >
      > What Eusebius reports of Papias supplies no basis for holding that he
      > referred to a sayings collection like Thomas. One might better make
      > the case that Papias was aware of Q, as it includes narratives of
      > Jesus' deeds as well as his words (e.g., the healing of the
      > centurion's pais).
      >
      > Jeff Peterson
      > Austin Graduate School of Theology
      > Austin TX
      >
      >
      > On Apr 11, 2009, at 7:28 AM, Jimmy Doyle wrote:
      >
      >>
      >>
      >> Gary
      >>
      >> I have suggested that the earliest version of Matthew was a sayings
      >> source
      >> like Q to my Bible students for years. I try to present Papias'
      >> description of Matthew in ways that alleviate some of my students
      >> reactions
      >> to the Q-hypothesis. Based upon the description of Matthew by
      >> Papias, that
      >> Matthew collected the _logia_ of Jesus and everyone interpreted them
      >> the
      >> best they could, it certainly seems that the version of Matthew
      >> Papias was
      >> aware of was more like Thomas and the likely sayings format of Q
      >> than our
      >> current Matthew. However, I'm quick to point out that this can ever be
      >> anything more than a suggestion and conjecture. There's simply not
      >> enough
      >> information to go beyond that. The most we have, I think, is
      >> evidence that
      >> early sayings Gospels (Papias' Matthew, Q, Thomas) existed and were
      >> actively
      >> used in early Jesus communities.
      >>
      >> Jimmy Doyle
      >> Tulsa, OK
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


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