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Green, McKnight & Marshall

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  • Ron Price
    I have just come across the book entitled Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels (1992) by Joel B. Green, Scot McKnight and I. Howard Marshall, courtesy of a
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 8, 2009
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      I have just come across the book entitled "Dictionary of Jesus and the
      Gospels" (1992) by Joel B. Green, Scot McKnight and I. Howard Marshall,
      courtesy of a Google search.

      Page 790 (available via Google) sets out five arguments why the authors
      think Luke could not have used Matthew. Most rely on 'Why' statements. In
      other words, the authors appear (from my standpoint) to be expressing a lack
      of reading or a lack of imagination or both. Viewed from the 3ST, the
      answers are trivially easy.

      (1) Why does Luke lack the Matthean additions to the Triple Tradition?
      Answer: because Luke chose to base his narrative on the older gospel of

      (2) The "Q" material is found in a different context in Luke. Why destroy
      the 5-discourse framework?
      Answer: the scholarly Luke chose to use the older 'logia' as the main
      source for Jesus' sayings.

      (3) At times the Q material is less developed in Luke, e.g. "poor" (6:20);
      "hunger now" (6:31); no reference to law and prophets (6:31); "Father"
      (11:2); "hate" (14:26).
      Answer: as (2) above.

      (4a) If Luke used Matthew, why does the order never agree against Mark?
      Answer: as (1) above.
      (4b) and why are there so few verbal agreements in Mt-Lk against Mk?
      Answer: Schnelle estimates there are around 700 of them. By any
      reasonable standard this constitutes "many", not "few".

      (5) Why did Luke not use any of the 'M' material?
      Answer: impossible by definition. (Where Luke used Matthew's non-Markan
      material, 2ST scholars labelled it 'Q'.) If we look at Matthew's non-Markan
      material, we can see that he did use some pericopes (e.g. The Temptation and
      the Centurion's Servant) and rejected others (e.g the Ten Bridesmaids and
      the Last Judgment). It would be easy to suggest possible reasons for Luke's
      choices here.

      Ron Price

      Derbyshire, UK

      Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
    • E Bruce Brooks
      To: Synoptic Cc: GPG; WSW In Response To: Ron Price On: Green, McKnight & Marshall From: Bruce Again on method, or so it seems. I entirely agree with Ron that
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 8, 2009
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        To: Synoptic
        Cc: GPG; WSW
        In Response To: Ron Price
        On: Green, McKnight & Marshall
        From: Bruce

        Again on method, or so it seems.

        I entirely agree with Ron that the GM&M arguments against Luke's use of
        Matthew are weak if not circular. Whether that instates his 3SH or some
        other alternate as the preferred solution is a corollary that can be left
        for next week. On the way to next week, I think that Michael Goulder's
        argument (recently cited) against the way IQP has set up Q is decisive
        against that variant. His key point is that IQP defines Q *in the first
        place* as non-Matthean, and thus refers Matthean qualities in the joint
        Mt/Lk material to "Matthean redaction signs." Well, "Matthean redaction" is
        a presupposition, and not a well grounded one. If the Matthean qualities in
        that material were left in, we would instead have "Matthean authorship

        The question, post-Goulder, is, how far can you get with a theory that
        requires Mt > Lk directionality in points of substance as well as points of
        style? My answer is, Most of the way. Meaning not that Goulder is wrong, but
        that his theory only explains *most* of the data; there is in my opinion an
        unexplained or unconvincingly explained residue which requires at least one
        supplementary theory. That is simply to say that there is more than one
        thing going on as between Mt and Lk. Nothing outrageous there; it would be
        strange if Luke was fiddling with only one string to his redactional violin.
        I have made my own suggestions about that possibility (they are not, at
        bottom, all that different from Ron's, though they do not presuppose a third
        document). That too can be left for the future. But I think we are at this
        point moving up a little toward the future. Bringing it nearer.

        My take on GM&M specifics is again similar to Ron's, but perhaps with some
        useful variants. Offered on that assumption herewith. Their p790:

        (1) Why does Luke lack the Matthean additions to the Triple Tradition?

        BRUCE: This reduces to a question of the type Why did Luke not . . . .
        [include certain material available to him in Mt and Mk together, as it is
        here supposed he had]. The answer to all such question requires a previous
        careful study of Luke's predilections as an author. The old view does not
        undertake such a study, because it regards Luke as a copyist, and not as a
        person with any personal characteristics whatever. This is a bad assumption;
        Luke is very assertively his own man in all this, as a modicum of reading in
        the actual Luke will reveal. And I note that the Q assumption requires also
        that Luke take THIS, but not THAT, from his supposed Vorlage. The question
        of what Luke likes and does not like thus arises again. It cannot be gotten
        rid of. We can only choose to meet it on one or another ground. The best
        ground is the one that yields the most convincing solution. The "copyist
        Luke" ground is about as unfavorable for decision as could be imagined. A
        recipe for defeat. We are currently trying to pull ourselves out of that
        slough of defeat.

        (2) The "Q" material is found in a different context in Luke. Why destroy
        the 5-discourse framework?

        BRUCE: Words like "destroy" display the anger of the writer, and thus convey
        a sense of indignation that anybody should tamper with what the writer
        memorized in childhood. Such sentences have no scholarly value, and should
        not occur in scholarly writing. The prior emotional question, if one is
        going to approach the subject emotionally, and it is one which also arises
        for Q proponents, is, Why did Mt CONSTRUCT the 5-discourse framework? Or in
        terms more obviously emotion-compromised, Why did Mt tear up previous
        material and pack it into 5 manifestly Torah-referential discourses, all of
        them too long and miscellaneous to be plausible in real life?

        People who like to indulge their faculty for anger should dump it on Mt.
        Then, when they come to Lk, they may well find themselves sympathizing at
        many points with what Lk accepts, and what Lk rejects, of Matthew's
        extensive tampering with the tradition previous to him. Meaning: The average
        analyst simply takes Matthew as a given in the question. But Matthew is not
        a given, neither in priority (it is not the first of these attempts to write
        a convincing Gospel) nor in any other way; it is redaction product, or as I
        think it better to say, an authorial and theological product. It too has
        characteristics; it is not the Way of Nature in modo Synoptico. It is not
        just the sound of rain on the roof. It does things, and not other things,
        for reasons agreeable to itself. Like everybody else in the Synoptic arena.

        (3) At times the Q material is less developed in Luke, e.g. "poor" (6:20);
        "hunger now" (6:31); no reference to law and prophets (6:31); "Father"
        (11:2); "hate" (14:26).

        BRUCE: This is merely descriptive (except that the phrase "less developed"
        is aetiologically prejudicial); it does not ask a question, it merely
        records details. If there is a question in the details, it has to be asked
        in more precise form. That Matthew is big on (eg) his reconception of' the
        Law, and Luke is not, is one of the manifest differences of taste and
        temperament between them. So is Luke's strident favoritism for the poor,
        whereas Matthew goes about clad as a bishop, and bowing deferentially to
        cardinals. His chain clanks as he walks.

        There ARE, as it seems to me, some Mt < > Lk directionality problems in here
        (previously noted; one of them involves the Beatitudes, another the Lord's
        Prayer) - places where it does indeed seem, taking things in the way a
        directionally sensitive reader naturally would take them, that the Lukan
        form is somehow developmentally prior to the Matthean form, and not simply
        (as Goulder, following one explanatory mode, would have it) a social
        reaction to the overfed Matthean one. Here is where the supplementary theory
        I mentioned above comes in rather nicely. But the supplementary theory
        itself has no ground, no purchase, until this scatterbrain question is pared
        down to a consistent data set, and then asked in something like answerable

        (4a) If Luke used Matthew, why does the order never agree against Mark?

        BRUCE: Sometimes it does. And where it does not, we have the precedent that
        Luke also messes up *Mark's* order when he feels like it (including the
        order of statements within a single narrative unit). Large scale or small;
        all the time. Then (sparing our overstressed emotions for a moment) we enter
        in the lab notebook the established fact that Luke likes to tinker with
        other people's sequences of statement. Sometimes for what he thinks (not
        always correctly, to my taste, but taste is not the point of the exercise)
        is a more effective sequence of presentation, sometimes for reasons which,
        sound or unsound, may not always be clear. But THAT he does so is manifest
        to the greenest reader. We then log in the fact that, whatever his thinking
        may be at a given point, he is very restless with the sequence of other
        people's prose. (As a journal editor, I know the feeling, and try to resist
        it - most of the time).

        Once that fact is aboard, and has become part of our thinking, the question
        either vanishes or is reduced to a form in which it is more readily
        answerable than in this inexact blanket indictment.

        4b) and why are there so few verbal agreements in Mt-Lk against Mk?

        BRUCE: Ron cited Schnelle, pointing out that there are in fact many such
        agreements. So we have here another nonquestion, a demand that one address a
        situation which does not in fact exist.

        (5) Why did Luke not use any of the 'M' material?

        BRUCE: As Ron in effect notes, this is basically a definition question. The
        prior difficulty is simply with reading Matthew. How do you account for the
        stuff in Matthew that is not in Mark? Since to the 19th century (and in many
        ways we are still in the 19th century) the very idea of origination was
        unpalatable, we got the idea of a "special source" which the faithful Mark
        copied with his nose half an inch off the page. Of course, there is an
        irreducible element of originality in Matthew's DECIDING TO USE that
        "source" in the first place, so the problem is not really banished (cf
        Luke's interference with prior narrative order, above), but it was evidently
        reduced to a point where the 19c was prepared to shrug it off as solved.

        Coming now to Luke (and here as elsewhere, I accept the Trajectory argument
        about the basic, overall, gross sequence of composition Mk > Mt > Lk), we
        have in effect the question, Why does Luke not use the things he does not
        use? The only answer, as to many other questions in this none too impressive
        series, is, Because he has his own distinctive preference profile as an
        author and Christian expositor. The job is to ascertain just what Luke is
        like as an author. If we start there, and proceed diligently and without
        residual Sunday School emotions, and if we are a little lucky (some problems
        in antiquity are simply insoluble for lack of sufficient information), we
        will reach the point where that question can be asked with some hope of
        giving an answer to it. I have been trying myself to work toward that point;
        M Goulder (in my considered estimation) took us a long way in a mostly right
        direction, and the thing should be possible. If not by next Tuesday, then at
        least in time to get something in the 2011 issue of whatever journal any
        individual investigator is aiming at.

        If we are going to ask questions about Luke, it makes sense to first make
        Luke's acquaintance, on his own terms and in extenso. This is not, on the
        whole, how the thing seems to have been handled in the history of NT. Luke
        has most conspicuously been the dumping ground for Synoptic reactions and
        discomforts (he stands a good deal higher with the general public, including
        the Hallmark Greeting Card Company, but we are here talking about the
        clerical public).

        My Goodness, there is even stuff published on the much-defended Mahabharata
        that is more adult than the questions about Luke that Ron is here quoting,
        and a good deal of other stuff that he has kindly refrained from quoting.

        But hopefully that is ending. If so, it is not a moment too soon.

        Comes the day when someone like Schnelle routinely includes, for each of
        these texts, a profile of its authorial practices and predilections, and
        asks the question of text integrity *before,* not *after,* bringing up any
        other question whose answer depends on a conclusion about text integrity,
        and it will be a pleasure to get up in the morning.

        Yours faithfully meanwhile,


        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst
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