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Re: [Synoptic-L] Crediting An E-List

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  • Stephen C. Carlson
    ... Apologies for missing your post of Feb. 8, but Synoptic-L has been cited (at least?) twice in NT literature. In particular: Robert A. Derrenbacker, Jr.
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 4, 2009
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      On Mar 5, 2009 1:22 AM, E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:
      >I had asked, on 8 Feb 2009, "A propos, has anyone ever cited, or seen anyone
      >else cite, in scholarly context, a contribution to this list? If not, I am
      >going to have to reconsider the wisdom and utility of my own contributions,
      >such as they may be." There was no response to this, and I am therefore
      >assuming that, in fact, nothing posted to the Synoptic-L list has ever been
      >cited, as such, in the NT literature.

      Apologies for missing your post of Feb. 8, but Synoptic-L has been cited
      (at least?) twice in NT literature. In particular:

      Robert A. Derrenbacker, Jr. and John S. Kloppenborg Verbin, "Self-Contradiction
      in the IQP? A Reply to Michael Goulder," Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 120,
      No. 1 (Spring, 2001), pp. 57-76.

      and

      Michael Goulder, "The Derrenbacker-Kloppenborg Defense," Journal of Biblical
      Literature, Vol. 121, No. 2 (Summer, 2002), pp. 331-336.

      Stephen Carlson

      --
      Stephen C. Carlson
      Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
      Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
    • E Bruce Brooks
      Stephen, Thanks for the references. For those who may not have their back JBL issues handy, here is the footnote on p335 of Michael Goulder s piece, which
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 4, 2009
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        Stephen,

        Thanks for the references. For those who may not have their back JBL issues
        handy, here is the footnote on p335 of Michael Goulder's piece, which gives
        an interesting rationale for and against web citations, as well as a test
        case of citation practice. My own comments follow.

        GOULDER n13

        Derrenbacker and Kloppenborg Verbin are up-to-date, citing Mark Goodacre
        (n36) in a discussion on his Synoptic-L, an academic e-mail discussion list
        on the Internet, for Sept. 17, 1999
        (http://www.egroups.com/message/synoptic-l/3102?&start=180); but they are
        unfortunately not up to the minute. Such discussions are an opportunity for
        proposing and criticizing ideas, and Stephen Carlson argued along the lines
        I have given above, causing Goodacre to withdraw his comments (Carlson,
        Sept. 19, 1999: http://www.egroups.com/message/synoptic-l/3104?. Goodacre,
        Sept 20, 1999:
        http://www.egroups.com/message/synoptic-l/3109?&start=3104?. Carlson, Sept
        22, 1999, ibid . . . synoptic-l/3112?&start=3104. Goodacre, Oct. 4, 1999,
        ibid . . . synoptic-l/3164?&start=3104). I think it is best to cite from
        published work, whether in print or on web pages or web sites, where the
        conclusions may be taken to be matured.

        COMMENTS

        1. The blizzard of precise URL's is obviously unwieldy, and since in print
        (JBL) there is no option of clicking on them to bring up the comment in
        question, they are somewhat frustrating. This is why our recommendation is
        simply for the author, date, and name (not also the self-characterization)
        of the E-list in question. Since the Synoptic-L archive is in fact open to
        the public, a search by the URL could be useful; one would have to type it
        in, but in this way, as with a printed book, the correctness of the citation
        could be verified, and the context investigated if desired. Much better
        would be a situation where a Google search merely on the name "synoptic-l"
        yielded the home page in question. My test of that possibility got me this
        message:
        Forbidden
        You don't have permission to access /~goodacre/synoptic-l/ on this server.

        Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
        ErrorDocument to handle the request.


        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Apache/2.2.3 Server at www.duke.edu Port 80

        Maybe Mark G could speak to his tech people about this. It is highly
        impolite at best, and mendacious at worst, since everybody and his
        brother-in-law, members or no, can in fact get into the Synoptic-L archive.

        2. Michael's recommendation to cite "matured" opinions applies of course to
        printed as well as volatile media, and the only way to apply that principle
        is to cite the latest available utterance of the person in question. The
        question of volatile media as such, as distinct from print media, does not
        arise.

        3.In their previous n34, Derrenbacker and Kloppenborg Verbin say, of the
        Goodacre comment there cited (again with an unwieldy URL), "Cited by
        permission of the author." I do not think that the permission of any author
        of a public document is required to cite that document. If Synoptic-L had a
        closed archive (as would be consistent with an "opportunity for proposing
        and discussing ideas," then the document is in fact private, shared only
        within a limited circle (the circle itself requiring a definite admission
        process), and as with a predraft circulated on paper, permission to cite
        would indeed be required. Does the open archive policy of Synoptic-L need to
        be reconsidered in the light of these considerations? At present, anything
        anybody says to anybody else immediately becomes part of the public record.

        (For contrast, my Sinological list WSW, which is designed explicitly as a
        prediscussion medium - the acronym expands to Warring States Workshop -
        consistently has a closed archive, available only to those who are currently
        in the discussion).

        Just thinking out loud.

        Any more examples of a Synoptic-L citation in the real world?

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      • Stephen C. Carlson
        ... Agreed that the blizzard of precise URL s is obviously unwieldy. I have toyed with the idea that archived mailing lists ought to be cited like
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 5, 2009
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          On Mar 5, 2009 2:21 AM, E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:
          >1. The blizzard of precise URL's is obviously unwieldy, and since in print
          >(JBL) there is no option of clicking on them to bring up the comment in
          >question, they are somewhat frustrating. This is why our recommendation is
          >simply for the author, date, and name (not also the self-characterization)
          >of the E-list in question. Since the Synoptic-L archive is in fact open to
          >the public, a search by the URL could be useful; one would have to type it
          >in, but in this way, as with a printed book, the correctness of the citation
          >could be verified, and the context investigated if desired. Much better
          >would be a situation where a Google search merely on the name "synoptic-l"
          >yielded the home page in question.

          Agreed that the "blizzard of precise URL's is obviously unwieldy." I have
          toyed with the idea that archived mailing lists ought to be cited like
          newspapers; for example: Stephen C. Carlson, "Re: [Synoptic-L] "Self-
          Contradiction in the IQP": A Response," Synoptic-L, Sep. 19, 1999, no. 3104.
          As long as it is findable by Google, it should be OK. In fact, being
          findable by Google seems to be stable for longer than precise URLs.

          >My test of that possibility got me this
          >message:
          >Forbidden
          >You don't have permission to access /~goodacre/synoptic-l/ on this server.
          >
          >Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
          >ErrorDocument to handle the request.
          >
          >
          >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >Apache/2.2.3 Server at www.duke.edu Port 80
          >
          >Maybe Mark G could speak to his tech people about this. It is highly
          >impolite at best, and mendacious at worst, since everybody and his
          >brother-in-law, members or no, can in fact get into the Synoptic-L archive.

          Duke has been having some computing problems lately. Mark G is aware--and
          frustrated--by these problems.

          >2. Michael's recommendation to cite "matured" opinions applies of course to
          >printed as well as volatile media, and the only way to apply that principle
          >is to cite the latest available utterance of the person in question. The
          >question of volatile media as such, as distinct from print media, does not
          >arise.

          Yes, I would agree. I took it as a warning that an author may change his
          mind (which also happens for print publications) and one must be watch out
          for that possibility. In this case, Mark's modification of his position
          was made on list shortly after the cited message.

          >3.In their previous n34, Derrenbacker and Kloppenborg Verbin say, of the
          >Goodacre comment there cited (again with an unwieldy URL), "Cited by
          >permission of the author." I do not think that the permission of any author
          >of a public document is required to cite that document. If Synoptic-L had a
          >closed archive (as would be consistent with an "opportunity for proposing
          >and discussing ideas," then the document is in fact private, shared only
          >within a limited circle (the circle itself requiring a definite admission
          >process), and as with a predraft circulated on paper, permission to cite
          >would indeed be required. Does the open archive policy of Synoptic-L need to
          >be reconsidered in the light of these considerations? At present, anything
          >anybody says to anybody else immediately becomes part of the public record.

          If it's on the web and publicly accessible, then I think it is citable. I
          don't see "permission" being necessary. I do see, however, that for the
          best scholarship some inquiry ought to be made to determine whether this is
          the author's mature opinion and he has not changed his mind -- but I would
          advise this for printed references as well.

          >(For contrast, my Sinological list WSW, which is designed explicitly as a
          >prediscussion medium - the acronym expands to Warring States Workshop -
          >consistently has a closed archive, available only to those who are currently
          >in the discussion).

          Yes, that is an alternative.

          >Any more examples of a Synoptic-L citation in the real world?

          Not that I'm aware. Those posts were from the golden age of the list, when the
          medium was still fresh and one of the regular contributors was still alive. It
          is only just recently (past year or so) that the list has started having its
          renaissance.

          Stephen

          --
          Stephen C. Carlson
          Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
          Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
        • Mark Goodacre
          ... Thanks for noting these. Yes, the Duke servers suffered some kind of meltdown this week and my pages were offline for days. I decided to move my pages to
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 8, 2009
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            2009/3/5 Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>:

            > On Mar 5, 2009 2:21 AM, E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:

            >>My test of that possibility got me this
            >>message:
            >>Forbidden
            >>You don't have permission to access /~goodacre/synoptic-l/ on this server.
            >>
            >>Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
            >>ErrorDocument to handle the request.
            >>
            >>
            >>----------------------------------------------------------
            >>
            >>Apache/2.2.3 Server at www.duke.edu Port 80
            >>
            >>Maybe Mark G could speak to his tech people about this. It is highly
            >>impolite at best, and mendacious at worst, since everybody and his
            >>brother-in-law, members or no, can in fact get into the Synoptic-L archive.
            >
            > Duke has been having some computing problems lately. Mark G is aware--and
            > frustrated--by these problems.

            Thanks for noting these. Yes, the Duke servers suffered some kind of
            meltdown this week and my pages were offline for days. I decided to
            move my pages to a new URL at markgoodace.org and I have moved the
            Synoptic-L page there too, at http://www.markgoodacre.org/synoptic-l.

            Best wishes
            Mark

            --
            Mark Goodacre Goodacre@...
            Associate Professor
            Duke University
            Department of Religion
            Gray Building / Box 90964
            Durham, NC 27708-0964 USA
            Phone: 919-660-3503 Fax: 919-660-3530

            http://www.markgoodacre.org
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Mark, this is missing the second  r :   markgoodace.org   Here s the full, corrected address:   http://markgoodacre.org/ Jeffery Hodges   ... From: Mark
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 8, 2009
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              Mark, this is missing the second "r":
               
              markgoodace.org
               
              Here's the full, corrected address:
               
              http://markgoodacre.org/

              Jeffery Hodges
               

              --- On Sun, 3/8/09, Mark Goodacre <Goodacre@...> wrote:


              From: Mark Goodacre <Goodacre@...>
              Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Crediting An E-List
              To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009, 3:52 PM


              2009/3/5 Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>:

              > On Mar 5, 2009 2:21 AM, E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:

              >>My test of that possibility got me this
              >>message:
              >>Forbidden
              >>You don't have permission to access /~goodacre/synoptic-l/ on this server.
              >>
              >>Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
              >>ErrorDocument to handle the request.
              >>
              >>
              >>----------------------------------------------------------
              >>
              >>Apache/2.2.3 Server at www.duke.edu Port 80
              >>
              >>Maybe Mark G could speak to his tech people about this. It is highly
              >>impolite at best, and mendacious at worst, since everybody and his
              >>brother-in-law, members or no, can in fact get into the Synoptic-L archive.
              >
              > Duke has been having some computing problems lately. Mark G is aware--and
              > frustrated--by these problems.

              Thanks for noting these.  Yes, the Duke servers suffered some kind of
              meltdown this week and my pages were offline for days.  I decided to
              move my pages to a new URL at markgoodace.org and I have moved the
              Synoptic-L page there too, at http://www.markgoodacre.org/synoptic-l.

              Best wishes
              Mark

              --
              Mark Goodacre            Goodacre@...
              Associate Professor
              Duke University
              Department of Religion
              Gray Building / Box 90964
              Durham, NC 27708-0964    USA
              Phone: 919-660-3503        Fax: 919-660-3530

              http://www.markgoodacre.org


              ------------------------------------

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