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Crediting An E-List

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  • E Bruce Brooks
    To: Synoptic Cc: WSW On: Crediting an E-List From: Bruce I had asked, on 8 Feb 2009, A propos, has anyone ever cited, or seen anyone else cite, in scholarly
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 4, 2009
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      To: Synoptic
      Cc: WSW
      On: Crediting an E-List
      From: Bruce

      I had asked, on 8 Feb 2009, "A propos, has anyone ever cited, or seen anyone
      else cite, in scholarly context, a contribution to this list? If not, I am
      going to have to reconsider the wisdom and utility of my own contributions,
      such as they may be." There was no response to this, and I am therefore
      assuming that, in fact, nothing posted to the Synoptic-L list has ever been
      cited, as such, in the NT literature.

      In which case, my own pending citation of a contribution thereto will
      presumably be the first. The contribution in question is my Two in Matthew
      bit, posted on 23 Jan 2009 in response to two notes by Chuck Jones earlier
      that day. As I understand the protocols and conventions of scholarship in
      general, I am free to simply publish that note (as later revised and
      rearranged) as my own, without mentioning Chuck or Synoptic-L, since the
      argument of my note is self-contained, and uses Chuck's list of passages
      only as a point of departure. I may yet do it that way. My preference,
      however, is to give credit where it is due, and also to preserve something
      of the atmosphere out of which the piece came. The present first page of the
      article, mentioning Chuck and Synoptic-L in a footnote, has just been posted
      to the Files section of the Synoptic-L web site, where it is available for
      inspection as to propriety and accuracy by Chuck, the list managers, or
      anyone else who may be interested.

      Comments accordingly welcome. There will be a little time to take them into
      account, since my final copy deadline is not for some days yet.

      Thanks in advance,

      Bruce

      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project
      University of Massachusetts at Amherst
    • Stephen C. Carlson
      ... Apologies for missing your post of Feb. 8, but Synoptic-L has been cited (at least?) twice in NT literature. In particular: Robert A. Derrenbacker, Jr.
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 4, 2009
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        On Mar 5, 2009 1:22 AM, E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:
        >I had asked, on 8 Feb 2009, "A propos, has anyone ever cited, or seen anyone
        >else cite, in scholarly context, a contribution to this list? If not, I am
        >going to have to reconsider the wisdom and utility of my own contributions,
        >such as they may be." There was no response to this, and I am therefore
        >assuming that, in fact, nothing posted to the Synoptic-L list has ever been
        >cited, as such, in the NT literature.

        Apologies for missing your post of Feb. 8, but Synoptic-L has been cited
        (at least?) twice in NT literature. In particular:

        Robert A. Derrenbacker, Jr. and John S. Kloppenborg Verbin, "Self-Contradiction
        in the IQP? A Reply to Michael Goulder," Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 120,
        No. 1 (Spring, 2001), pp. 57-76.

        and

        Michael Goulder, "The Derrenbacker-Kloppenborg Defense," Journal of Biblical
        Literature, Vol. 121, No. 2 (Summer, 2002), pp. 331-336.

        Stephen Carlson

        --
        Stephen C. Carlson
        Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
        Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
      • E Bruce Brooks
        Stephen, Thanks for the references. For those who may not have their back JBL issues handy, here is the footnote on p335 of Michael Goulder s piece, which
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 4, 2009
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          Stephen,

          Thanks for the references. For those who may not have their back JBL issues
          handy, here is the footnote on p335 of Michael Goulder's piece, which gives
          an interesting rationale for and against web citations, as well as a test
          case of citation practice. My own comments follow.

          GOULDER n13

          Derrenbacker and Kloppenborg Verbin are up-to-date, citing Mark Goodacre
          (n36) in a discussion on his Synoptic-L, an academic e-mail discussion list
          on the Internet, for Sept. 17, 1999
          (http://www.egroups.com/message/synoptic-l/3102?&start=180); but they are
          unfortunately not up to the minute. Such discussions are an opportunity for
          proposing and criticizing ideas, and Stephen Carlson argued along the lines
          I have given above, causing Goodacre to withdraw his comments (Carlson,
          Sept. 19, 1999: http://www.egroups.com/message/synoptic-l/3104?. Goodacre,
          Sept 20, 1999:
          http://www.egroups.com/message/synoptic-l/3109?&start=3104?. Carlson, Sept
          22, 1999, ibid . . . synoptic-l/3112?&start=3104. Goodacre, Oct. 4, 1999,
          ibid . . . synoptic-l/3164?&start=3104). I think it is best to cite from
          published work, whether in print or on web pages or web sites, where the
          conclusions may be taken to be matured.

          COMMENTS

          1. The blizzard of precise URL's is obviously unwieldy, and since in print
          (JBL) there is no option of clicking on them to bring up the comment in
          question, they are somewhat frustrating. This is why our recommendation is
          simply for the author, date, and name (not also the self-characterization)
          of the E-list in question. Since the Synoptic-L archive is in fact open to
          the public, a search by the URL could be useful; one would have to type it
          in, but in this way, as with a printed book, the correctness of the citation
          could be verified, and the context investigated if desired. Much better
          would be a situation where a Google search merely on the name "synoptic-l"
          yielded the home page in question. My test of that possibility got me this
          message:
          Forbidden
          You don't have permission to access /~goodacre/synoptic-l/ on this server.

          Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
          ErrorDocument to handle the request.


          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Apache/2.2.3 Server at www.duke.edu Port 80

          Maybe Mark G could speak to his tech people about this. It is highly
          impolite at best, and mendacious at worst, since everybody and his
          brother-in-law, members or no, can in fact get into the Synoptic-L archive.

          2. Michael's recommendation to cite "matured" opinions applies of course to
          printed as well as volatile media, and the only way to apply that principle
          is to cite the latest available utterance of the person in question. The
          question of volatile media as such, as distinct from print media, does not
          arise.

          3.In their previous n34, Derrenbacker and Kloppenborg Verbin say, of the
          Goodacre comment there cited (again with an unwieldy URL), "Cited by
          permission of the author." I do not think that the permission of any author
          of a public document is required to cite that document. If Synoptic-L had a
          closed archive (as would be consistent with an "opportunity for proposing
          and discussing ideas," then the document is in fact private, shared only
          within a limited circle (the circle itself requiring a definite admission
          process), and as with a predraft circulated on paper, permission to cite
          would indeed be required. Does the open archive policy of Synoptic-L need to
          be reconsidered in the light of these considerations? At present, anything
          anybody says to anybody else immediately becomes part of the public record.

          (For contrast, my Sinological list WSW, which is designed explicitly as a
          prediscussion medium - the acronym expands to Warring States Workshop -
          consistently has a closed archive, available only to those who are currently
          in the discussion).

          Just thinking out loud.

          Any more examples of a Synoptic-L citation in the real world?

          Bruce

          E Bruce Brooks
          Warring States Project
          University of Massachusetts at Amherst
        • Stephen C. Carlson
          ... Agreed that the blizzard of precise URL s is obviously unwieldy. I have toyed with the idea that archived mailing lists ought to be cited like
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 5, 2009
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            On Mar 5, 2009 2:21 AM, E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:
            >1. The blizzard of precise URL's is obviously unwieldy, and since in print
            >(JBL) there is no option of clicking on them to bring up the comment in
            >question, they are somewhat frustrating. This is why our recommendation is
            >simply for the author, date, and name (not also the self-characterization)
            >of the E-list in question. Since the Synoptic-L archive is in fact open to
            >the public, a search by the URL could be useful; one would have to type it
            >in, but in this way, as with a printed book, the correctness of the citation
            >could be verified, and the context investigated if desired. Much better
            >would be a situation where a Google search merely on the name "synoptic-l"
            >yielded the home page in question.

            Agreed that the "blizzard of precise URL's is obviously unwieldy." I have
            toyed with the idea that archived mailing lists ought to be cited like
            newspapers; for example: Stephen C. Carlson, "Re: [Synoptic-L] "Self-
            Contradiction in the IQP": A Response," Synoptic-L, Sep. 19, 1999, no. 3104.
            As long as it is findable by Google, it should be OK. In fact, being
            findable by Google seems to be stable for longer than precise URLs.

            >My test of that possibility got me this
            >message:
            >Forbidden
            >You don't have permission to access /~goodacre/synoptic-l/ on this server.
            >
            >Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
            >ErrorDocument to handle the request.
            >
            >
            >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >Apache/2.2.3 Server at www.duke.edu Port 80
            >
            >Maybe Mark G could speak to his tech people about this. It is highly
            >impolite at best, and mendacious at worst, since everybody and his
            >brother-in-law, members or no, can in fact get into the Synoptic-L archive.

            Duke has been having some computing problems lately. Mark G is aware--and
            frustrated--by these problems.

            >2. Michael's recommendation to cite "matured" opinions applies of course to
            >printed as well as volatile media, and the only way to apply that principle
            >is to cite the latest available utterance of the person in question. The
            >question of volatile media as such, as distinct from print media, does not
            >arise.

            Yes, I would agree. I took it as a warning that an author may change his
            mind (which also happens for print publications) and one must be watch out
            for that possibility. In this case, Mark's modification of his position
            was made on list shortly after the cited message.

            >3.In their previous n34, Derrenbacker and Kloppenborg Verbin say, of the
            >Goodacre comment there cited (again with an unwieldy URL), "Cited by
            >permission of the author." I do not think that the permission of any author
            >of a public document is required to cite that document. If Synoptic-L had a
            >closed archive (as would be consistent with an "opportunity for proposing
            >and discussing ideas," then the document is in fact private, shared only
            >within a limited circle (the circle itself requiring a definite admission
            >process), and as with a predraft circulated on paper, permission to cite
            >would indeed be required. Does the open archive policy of Synoptic-L need to
            >be reconsidered in the light of these considerations? At present, anything
            >anybody says to anybody else immediately becomes part of the public record.

            If it's on the web and publicly accessible, then I think it is citable. I
            don't see "permission" being necessary. I do see, however, that for the
            best scholarship some inquiry ought to be made to determine whether this is
            the author's mature opinion and he has not changed his mind -- but I would
            advise this for printed references as well.

            >(For contrast, my Sinological list WSW, which is designed explicitly as a
            >prediscussion medium - the acronym expands to Warring States Workshop -
            >consistently has a closed archive, available only to those who are currently
            >in the discussion).

            Yes, that is an alternative.

            >Any more examples of a Synoptic-L citation in the real world?

            Not that I'm aware. Those posts were from the golden age of the list, when the
            medium was still fresh and one of the regular contributors was still alive. It
            is only just recently (past year or so) that the list has started having its
            renaissance.

            Stephen

            --
            Stephen C. Carlson
            Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
            Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
          • Mark Goodacre
            ... Thanks for noting these. Yes, the Duke servers suffered some kind of meltdown this week and my pages were offline for days. I decided to move my pages to
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 8, 2009
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              2009/3/5 Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>:

              > On Mar 5, 2009 2:21 AM, E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:

              >>My test of that possibility got me this
              >>message:
              >>Forbidden
              >>You don't have permission to access /~goodacre/synoptic-l/ on this server.
              >>
              >>Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
              >>ErrorDocument to handle the request.
              >>
              >>
              >>----------------------------------------------------------
              >>
              >>Apache/2.2.3 Server at www.duke.edu Port 80
              >>
              >>Maybe Mark G could speak to his tech people about this. It is highly
              >>impolite at best, and mendacious at worst, since everybody and his
              >>brother-in-law, members or no, can in fact get into the Synoptic-L archive.
              >
              > Duke has been having some computing problems lately. Mark G is aware--and
              > frustrated--by these problems.

              Thanks for noting these. Yes, the Duke servers suffered some kind of
              meltdown this week and my pages were offline for days. I decided to
              move my pages to a new URL at markgoodace.org and I have moved the
              Synoptic-L page there too, at http://www.markgoodacre.org/synoptic-l.

              Best wishes
              Mark

              --
              Mark Goodacre Goodacre@...
              Associate Professor
              Duke University
              Department of Religion
              Gray Building / Box 90964
              Durham, NC 27708-0964 USA
              Phone: 919-660-3503 Fax: 919-660-3530

              http://www.markgoodacre.org
            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Mark, this is missing the second  r :   markgoodace.org   Here s the full, corrected address:   http://markgoodacre.org/ Jeffery Hodges   ... From: Mark
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 8, 2009
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                Mark, this is missing the second "r":
                 
                markgoodace.org
                 
                Here's the full, corrected address:
                 
                http://markgoodacre.org/

                Jeffery Hodges
                 

                --- On Sun, 3/8/09, Mark Goodacre <Goodacre@...> wrote:


                From: Mark Goodacre <Goodacre@...>
                Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Crediting An E-List
                To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009, 3:52 PM


                2009/3/5 Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>:

                > On Mar 5, 2009 2:21 AM, E Bruce Brooks <brooks@...> wrote:

                >>My test of that possibility got me this
                >>message:
                >>Forbidden
                >>You don't have permission to access /~goodacre/synoptic-l/ on this server.
                >>
                >>Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an
                >>ErrorDocument to handle the request.
                >>
                >>
                >>----------------------------------------------------------
                >>
                >>Apache/2.2.3 Server at www.duke.edu Port 80
                >>
                >>Maybe Mark G could speak to his tech people about this. It is highly
                >>impolite at best, and mendacious at worst, since everybody and his
                >>brother-in-law, members or no, can in fact get into the Synoptic-L archive.
                >
                > Duke has been having some computing problems lately. Mark G is aware--and
                > frustrated--by these problems.

                Thanks for noting these.  Yes, the Duke servers suffered some kind of
                meltdown this week and my pages were offline for days.  I decided to
                move my pages to a new URL at markgoodace.org and I have moved the
                Synoptic-L page there too, at http://www.markgoodacre.org/synoptic-l.

                Best wishes
                Mark

                --
                Mark Goodacre            Goodacre@...
                Associate Professor
                Duke University
                Department of Religion
                Gray Building / Box 90964
                Durham, NC 27708-0964    USA
                Phone: 919-660-3503        Fax: 919-660-3530

                http://www.markgoodacre.org


                ------------------------------------

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