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Re: [Synoptic-L] On The Earliest Markan Narrative

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  • Tony Buglass
    Dennis: This wouls suggest that portions of the Passion story were influenced by Josephus, placing a date of closer to 80 for this tale. Alternatively, it
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 17, 2009
      Dennis: "This wouls suggest that portions of the Passion story were influenced by Josephus, placing a date of closer to 80 for this tale. "

      Alternatively, it might suggest that Josephus is dependent on Mark. Or that both are dependent upon another prototype. Surely any such hypothesis has to be finessed in the light of other evidence.

      Cheers,
      Rev Tony Buglass
      Superintendent Minister
      Upper Calder Methodist Circuit.



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    • E Bruce Brooks
      To: Tony Buglass On: Church Supervision From: Bruce Excellent point about Josephus. But what I really wanted to ask about was not the message so much as this
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 17, 2009
        To: Tony Buglass
        On: Church Supervision
        From: Bruce

        Excellent point about Josephus. But what I really wanted to ask about was
        not the message so much as this part of the signature block:

        Superintendent Minister
        Upper Calder Methodist Circuit.

        What does that involve, and how often? My grandfather was, well, not quite a
        circuit rider, but a minister in the Methodism of a hundred years ago, but I
        would rather have contemporary data. What, in 2009, are the duties of a
        Superintendent Minister, and how do they interact with those of the Resident
        Ministers, if any?

        Pardon my administrative ignorance, but it strikes me as relevant to a note
        I was considering posting on the situation in the 1c.

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      • Tony Buglass
        Hi, Bruce British Methodism is organised differently from US Methodism. Our churches are organised into Circuits, which are in turn organised into Districts,
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 17, 2009
          Hi, Bruce

          British Methodism is organised differently from US Methodism. Our churches are organised into Circuits, which are in turn organised into Districts, which in turn report to Conference (which meets annually). Each Circuit is run by the team of ministers and local preachers; the team is led by the Superintendent minister, who is also in pastoral charge of some of the churches (unlike our District Chairs, who are usually not in pastoral charge). This Circuit is relatively small (10 churches, 2 ministers, and about a dozen local preachers), occupying a valley running up into the Pennines from Halfax, West Yorkshire. We are currently considering joining up a few small circuits to form a larger one of some 30 churches. I am in pastoral charge of 5 churches, and in addition have a handful of District responsibilities and a chaplaincy to the local squadron of the Air Training Corps (think of a cross between Scouts and Royal Air Force). My responsibilities in the churches are the same as any minister: preaching, teaching, pastoral oversight, management, etc. In addition, as superintendent, I oversee the work at circuit level: I chair the Circuit Meeting, Local Preachers Meeting, and some of the Circuit Teams; I am also legally the Chair of the Managing Trustees of every church in the circuit, including those looked after by my colleague.

          That's the structure. Personally (to link it to biblical studies and stuff) I see it as a close parallel to the episcopal structure behind 1 Tim.3 - the superintendent is the episkopos over the team of presbyteroi and laos. I prefer that as a model of episcopacy to the post-Constantinian diocesan model, or the UM model, which makes the bishop a much more distant figure. Or so it appears to me!

          Hope that helps,
          Cheers,
          Rev Tony Buglass
          Superintendent Minister
          Upper Calder Methodist Circuit

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        • Dennis Dean Carpenter
          Bruce stated: I think a more mixed view is a better description of the whole. As von Soden long ago pointed out, large tracts of Mark are extremely sunny.
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 17, 2009
            Bruce stated: "I think a more mixed view is a better description of the whole. As
            von Soden long ago pointed out, large tracts of Mark are extremely sunny.
            They have Jesus preaching openly to large and enthusiastic crowds, Jesus
            healing many, Jesus commanding the forces of nature, everything going well.
            Nowhere in this material does Jesus curse his disciples, or intentionally
            hide his message from his hearers. Then, as von Soden also pointed out, you
            also have the other and gloomier part, the secretive Jesus, the abusive
            Jesus, the impatient Jesus. The problem of Mark, as von Soden thus expressed
            it, is to explain what these two types of material are doing in there
            together. The tension demands some sort of resolution in the reader's or
            hearer's mind. Wrede made a good beginning. More recently, I have suggested
            how I see this demand being met, in each successive layer, and most
            successfully (as above noted) in Layer 3 and subsequent."

            Dennis replies: That is an interesting way to look at it. Wouldn't another way of stating that be, "Why would a human being have different emotions at different times?" Whether 'tis the author of Mark or the character of Jesus, I find not "problem of Mark" that requires an interpolation explanation, especially if the hero of the story is caught between (supernatural) destiny and fate. Looking for a perfectly consistent Jesus within the gospels is one of the major flaws I have seen in modern scholarship that I have read. Humans aren't consistent in their emotions and neither are characters, even heroes of stories nor their authors.

            Anyway, it sounds like a faxcinating way to look at that gospel. Can't wait to read the findings.

            Dennis Dean Carpenter
            Dahlonega, Ga.

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          • E Bruce Brooks
            Tony, Thanks much; that does help. But let me see if I am reading you right. You have Supervisory responsibilities for all 10 churches in your circuit. You
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 17, 2009
              Tony,

              Thanks much; that does help. But let me see if I am reading you right. You
              have Supervisory responsibilities for all 10 churches in your circuit. You
              also have Pastoral responsibilities for 5 of the churches. So all the
              regular preaching in those 5 churches is done by you. Do I correctly infer
              that in the other 5 churches, there are "local ministers" who do some of the
              preaching, but that you occasionally preach there also? And do you exert any
              supervision over the preaching that the local ministers do?

              Sorry to be slow, but the information is appreciated.

              Bruce

              E Bruce Brooks
              Warring States Project
              University of Massachusetts at Amherst
            • Tony Buglass
              I don t have to preach in all 5 churches every week - that would get a bit silly! We have local preachers - lay preachers - who take services. They are very
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 17, 2009
                I don't have to preach in all 5 churches every week - that would get a bit silly! We have local preachers - lay preachers - who take services. They are very important members of the circuit team, we couldn't function without them. They are trained and accredited by the church, and answerable to the circuit through the Local Preachers' Meeting. As superintendent, I organise the preaching rota for all the churches on a quarterly plan - churches and preachers give me their requests and availability for the period in question, and I put them together. I don't tell the preachers what to preach, they are free to select their own subject, follow the lectionary or not.

                Hope that helps,
                Cheers,
                Rev Tony Buglass
                Superintendent Minister
                Upper Calder Methodist Circuit

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              • Dennis Dean Carpenter
                To say that Josephus was dependent on Mark would require some explanation. Josephus writes at length about the religious sects of Palestine. Unless one wants
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 18, 2009
                  To say that Josephus was dependent on Mark would require some explanation. Josephus writes at length about the religious sects of Palestine. Unless one wants to speculate that the Essenes were the prototypical Christianity, we find nothing but a highly, if not completely, interpolated statement about a Jesus and a mention of the brother of Jesus. That's it.

                  But, you are correct about another prototype for Josephus. Jesus son of Ananias probably had roots, according to Ted Weeden Sr, in Jeremiah, which was a huge influence on Josephus. (He considered himself a "modern day Jeremiah," it seems. The evidence is found in Wars of the Jews and in Life.) One also finds a deep connection between the gospeleers and Jeremiah. (Mark's inspiration for the narrative of the cleansing of the temple came from Jeremiah, for instance.)

                  Dennis Dean Carpenter
                  Dahlonega, Ga.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Tony Buglass
                  To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 10:30 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] On The Earliest Markan Narrative


                  Dennis: "This wouls suggest that portions of the Passion story were influenced by Josephus, placing a date of closer to 80 for this tale. "

                  Alternatively, it might suggest that Josephus is dependent on Mark. Or that both are dependent upon another prototype. Surely any such hypothesis has to be finessed in the light of other evidence.

                  Cheers,
                  Rev Tony Buglass
                  Superintendent Minister
                  Upper Calder Methodist Circuit.

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