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Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark 13 (and Twelve)

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  • Karel Hanhart
    Bruce, I believe it wise not to argue too long about the four speeches structure. I am simply ordering the text as it stands. It appears that Mark
    Message 1 of 2 , Nov 25, 2008

      I believe it wise not to argue too long about the 'four speeches' structure. I am simply ordering the text as it stands. It appears that Mark deliberately alternated certain 'signs' ( in the Johannine sense of the word) and speeches of instruction that were illustrated by these signs. John borrowed the idea of alternating from Mark I think. The four lengthy assembly of instructions are part of the entire structural lay-out.
      It may or may not be that trios existed in a previous 'layer' but these are not in the text we have.

      As to the Greek named Andrew. There is hardly a name more Greek than Andrew. Since you rightly agree Iscariot was not part of the original twelve; how do you explain that in a Galilean family one was called Sjemon and the other Andreas? They were not living in multi-cultural America. Andrew was the 'spiritual' brother of Simon, representing the Gentiles. .Jesus called both! But in the remainder of the story, dealing with Jesus interaction with his disciples (except Mc 13! 'Peter' had no brother next to him.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: E Bruce Brooks
      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: GPG
      Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:46 PM
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark 13 (and Twelve)

      To: Synoptic
      In Response To: Karel Hanhart
      On: Mark 13 (and Twelve)
      From: Bruce

      Karel's conclusions about these and related matters are embodied in a book,
      and thus perhaps in his own view not very malleable. Some of the points he
      takes up seem to me to admit of other possibilities, and I thought it might
      open up discussion to mention a few of them.

      I had remarked on the remarkable longness of the Mk 13 discourse.

      KAREL: In Mark four 'speeches' are an constructural element. Van Iersel
      recognized two of them - chps 4 and 13 - others have recognized 10,32 -
      42, Richardson ); I added 7,5 -23; hence structurally chps 4 - 7 - 10 - 13.

      BRUCE: I notice the progression of chapter numbers, but I am not prepared to
      attach much weight to it; some of that for me is in different textual
      layers, and thus cannot be a design of the original writer, or of any one
      subsequent writer. The last writer might have had something like that in
      mind in placing his material, and an intentional spacing of that sort thus
      cannot be ruled out. But for me, Mk 4 and Mk 13 are at almost the extreme
      ends of the Markan textual growth process, and I think that theories of
      intentional arrangement need to be formulated, or reformulated, in those
      terms in order to be convincing.

      I had further noted the anomaly of Andrew as questioner in Mk 13.

      KAREL: Andrew is the Greek named follower, next to the Hebrew named trio:
      ``Simon, Johanan and Jaakob. Together with the fictitious Iscariot.

      BRUCE: I agree that Judas Iscariot was not originally regarded as one of the
      Twelve; I also agree with whoever researched Acts that the last place on the
      list was originally occupied by Judas of James. As for Greek names on the
      Twelve list, what about Philip? And in any case, the issue wasn't about
      Andrew's Greekness or nonGreekness, but about his uncharacteristic
      appearance as an interlocutor in Mk 13. His only moment in the sun, and a
      sufficiently strange sun it is.

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