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Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)

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  • Dennis Dean Carpenter
    For goodness sakes! The unclean woman drained his power from him! What do you think! :) Dennis Dean Carpenter Dahlonega, Ga. ... From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 12, 2008
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      For goodness sakes! The unclean woman drained his power from him! What do you think! :)
      Dennis Dean Carpenter
      Dahlonega, Ga.



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:39 PM
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)


      Thanks for the citation, but are you certain that I'm wrong? Here's Leviticus 15:19-24:

      'If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything that she lies on during her impurity shall be unclean; also everything that she sits on shall be unclean. Whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. And whoever touches anything that she sat on shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. If anything is on her bed or on anything on which she sits, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening. And if any man lies with her at all, so that her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days; and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean.'
      Jesus doesn't touch the woman, and she doesn't directly touch him but merely the hem of his garment. So . . . I'd say that there's some doubt, technically, about his having been rendered unclean.

      Jeffery Hodges

      --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:


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    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      That s the dynamic power of holiness that the Gospel of Mark portrays Jesus having as the Holy One of God -- as the title given him in Mark. I wouldn t say
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 12, 2008
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        That's the dynamic power of holiness that the Gospel of Mark portrays Jesus having as the Holy One of God -- as the title given him in Mark. I wouldn't say that he's being 'drained', by the way, merely that he notices the flow of power.
         
        Both holiness and impurity are dynamic powers, and they are in dynamic opposition to each other, and the holy power within Jesus is being shown as more powerful than the impurity within the woman.
         
        At least, that's what I think is going on in Mark's Gospel as a whole -- given encounters with the unclean spirits, for example.
         
        Jeffery Hodges

        --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:

        From: Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...>
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 4:38 PM

        For goodness sakes! The unclean woman drained his power from him! What do you
        think! :)
        Dennis Dean Carpenter
        Dahlonega, Ga.



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:39 PM
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)


        Thanks for the citation, but are you certain that I'm wrong? Here's
        Leviticus 15:19-24:

        'If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood,
        she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean
        until evening. Everything that she lies on during her impurity shall be unclean;
        also everything that she sits on shall be unclean. Whoever touches her bed shall
        wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. And whoever
        touches anything that she sat on shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and
        be unclean until evening. If anything is on her bed or on anything on which she
        sits, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening. And if any man lies
        with her at all, so that her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days;
        and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean.'
        Jesus doesn't touch the woman, and she doesn't directly touch him but
        merely the hem of his garment. So . . . I'd say that there's some doubt,
        technically, about his having been rendered unclean.

        Jeffery Hodges

        --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:


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      • Dennis Dean Carpenter
        But the author of Mark said that the power had left him. I wasn t exaggerating... His energizer bunny ran down. I meant that was one mighty touch the author
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 12, 2008
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          But the author of Mark said that the power had left him. I wasn't exaggerating... His energizer bunny ran down. I meant that was one mighty touch the author has her making! I think Morton Smith said something about this, but I'm too busy to grab the book and look for it.
          Dennis Dean Carpenter
          Dahlonega, Ga.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:48 PM
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)


          That's the dynamic power of holiness that the Gospel of Mark portrays Jesus having as the Holy One of God -- as the title given him in Mark. I wouldn't say that he's being 'drained', by the way, merely that he notices the flow of power.

          Both holiness and impurity are dynamic powers, and they are in dynamic opposition to each other, and the holy power within Jesus is being shown as more powerful than the impurity within the woman.

          At least, that's what I think is going on in Mark's Gospel as a whole -- given encounters with the unclean spirits, for example.

          Jeffery Hodges

          --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:

          From: Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...>
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 4:38 PM

          For goodness sakes! The unclean woman drained his power from him! What do you
          think! :)
          Dennis Dean Carpenter
          Dahlonega, Ga.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:39 PM
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)

          Thanks for the citation, but are you certain that I'm wrong? Here's
          Leviticus 15:19-24:

          'If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood,
          she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean
          until evening. Everything that she lies on during her impurity shall be unclean;
          also everything that she sits on shall be unclean. Whoever touches her bed shall
          wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. And whoever
          touches anything that she sat on shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and
          be unclean until evening. If anything is on her bed or on anything on which she
          sits, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening. And if any man lies
          with her at all, so that her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days;
          and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean.'
          Jesus doesn't touch the woman, and she doesn't directly touch him but
          merely the hem of his garment. So . . . I'd say that there's some doubt,
          technically, about his having been rendered unclean.

          Jeffery Hodges

          --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:

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        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
          I am working from memory, but as far as I recall, he felt the power go out of him, but we should be cautious about the Gospel of Mark implying that Jesus had
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 12, 2008
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            I am working from memory, but as far as I recall, he felt the power go out of him, but we should be cautious about the Gospel of Mark implying that Jesus had less power afterwards.

            Jeffery Hodges

            --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:

            From: Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...>
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)
            To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 5:22 PM

            But the author of Mark said that the power had left him. I wasn't
            exaggerating... His energizer bunny ran down. I meant that was one mighty touch
            the author has her making! I think Morton Smith said something about this, but
            I'm too busy to grab the book and look for it.
            Dennis Dean Carpenter
            Dahlonega, Ga.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
            To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:48 PM
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)


            That's the dynamic power of holiness that the Gospel of Mark portrays
            Jesus having as the Holy One of God -- as the title given him in Mark. I
            wouldn't say that he's being 'drained', by the way, merely that
            he notices the flow of power.

            Both holiness and impurity are dynamic powers, and they are in dynamic
            opposition to each other, and the holy power within Jesus is being shown as more
            powerful than the impurity within the woman.

            At least, that's what I think is going on in Mark's Gospel as a whole
            -- given encounters with the unclean spirits, for example.

            Jeffery Hodges

            --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:

            From: Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...>
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)
            To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 4:38 PM

            For goodness sakes! The unclean woman drained his power from him! What do you
            think! :)
            Dennis Dean Carpenter
            Dahlonega, Ga.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Horace Jeffery Hodges
            To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:39 PM
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)

            Thanks for the citation, but are you certain that I'm wrong? Here's
            Leviticus 15:19-24:

            'If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood,
            she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean
            until evening. Everything that she lies on during her impurity shall be
            unclean;
            also everything that she sits on shall be unclean. Whoever touches her bed
            shall
            wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. And
            whoever
            touches anything that she sat on shall wash his clothes and bathe in water,
            and
            be unclean until evening. If anything is on her bed or on anything on which
            she
            sits, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening. And if any man
            lies
            with her at all, so that her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven
            days;
            and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean.'
            Jesus doesn't touch the woman, and she doesn't directly touch him but
            merely the hem of his garment. So . . . I'd say that there's some
            doubt,
            technically, about his having been rendered unclean.

            Jeffery Hodges

            --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:

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          • E Bruce Brooks
            To: Synoptic Cc: GPG In Response To: Dennis Dean Carpenter On: Jairus Daughter From: Bruce DENNIS: Bruce, I think we are not going anywhere with this. I was
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 12, 2008
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              To: Synoptic
              Cc: GPG
              In Response To: Dennis Dean Carpenter
              On: Jairus' Daughter
              From: Bruce

              DENNIS: Bruce, I think we are not going anywhere with this. I was preparing
              a reply to your other post and saw the one that began, "In response to
              Jeffery Hodges, Dennis had said, in part..." You seemed to be trying to
              look at individual parts to determine some kind of early versus late
              construction of parts of Mark.

              BRUCE: I am looking at the text to see what it up to. One of the signs I try
              to be alert to, in Mark or in any other text, is incongruity of content or
              doctrine. That is no great stretch; to take only the most prominent and
              worrisome instance, many commentators have pointed out that the Christology
              of Mark is inconsistent; that no one theme can represent it. Another sign,
              independent of the first, is indications of narrative inconcinnity. Such
              places deserve attention to see if an insertion hypothesis will account for
              the difficulty. The classic cases of interpolation are probably the ones Ron
              Price agrees with me (and with scores of earlier commentators) in
              recognizing, namely Mk 14:28 and 16:7. To repeat the former case yet again:

              14:27. And Jesus said to them, You will all fall away, for it is written, I
              will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.

              14:28. But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.

              14:29. Peter said to him, Even though they all fall away, I will not. . .

              The point here is that the very remarkable assurance of Jesus in 14:28 is
              utterly ignored by Peter; instead, he responds with indignation to the
              prediction in 14:27. He behaves as though 14:28 were simply not there, and
              the implication is that when this passage was written, it was in fact not
              there, but was added later, presumably to give extra point to the
              Resurrection, and to show that it, like the Denials, was known in advance.
              That is the pattern that interpolated texts have, in any language. They
              interrupt the context, the context takes no note of them, and the context is
              made more consecutive when they are removed. Exactly the same pattern is
              found in 16:7, try it and see. Of course it is something of a clincher that
              16:7 *refers* to 14:28; the implication is that these two short passages
              were planted in the previous text at the same time, and for the same
              purpose.

              DENNIS: In lieu of an autograph, I'd need more.

              BRUCE: Assuming that our good friends the textual critics have done their
              work well, the autograph would look exactly like the archetype, and both
              would be indistinguishable from the thing in front of us. It is only
              reasonable to suppose that Mark VI (like me after making corrections on my
              conference paper) would make a clean copy before declaring the job done.
              What we have is that clean copy, and all we have to go on are not Mark VI's
              marginalia notes (they have been incorporated into the text), but simply the
              indications in the substance of the text.

              DENNIS: I'm looking at the gospel as a whole, thematically. I'm looking to
              see if those pieces fit. They do.

              BRUCE: If we take the many themes in Mark, and grant them equal standing as
              legitimating authorities, then any given passage will probably be
              reconcilable with one or another of them, and thus will be certified as part
              of Mark. But this evades the prior question. The prior question is whether
              the themes themselves fit each other. Do the Son of Man passages really
              cohere with the Son of God passages? That question and similar ones have
              been argued repeatedly, and at book length. I take those books as a symptom
              that there is something there to discuss.

              The (almost) two thousand years of intense hermeneutic attention to Mark
              have produced various results which are satisfactory to many. It would be
              surprising if they hadn't. Harmonization is the typical task of a commentary
              literature, in all cultures of which I have any experience. It's just that
              the efforts to harmonize and rationalize Mark haven't convinced all of us
              that there is no problem there in the first place. The evidence of
              inconcinnity and inconsistency in the text continues to weigh with some of
              us.

              And theoretically, what right have we to look at any text "as a whole"
              before we determine that it really IS a whole? The kind of philological
              tests I am proposing are how one makes that determination. To proceed
              without that step is what Yau Ji-hvng (recently quoted) disapproved of. We
              can't know how to make use of a text until we know what sort of text it is,
              and whether it is in one layer or in several. The job of making that
              determination cannot be referred to interpretation; that comes later. The
              preparatory work of seeing whether we have one text or seven, or no text at
              all (in the case of a mediaeval forgery), belongs not to history but to what
              I have called philology. It is a separate step, a necessary if admittedly a
              humble one.

              Take an example from the other end of the Mediterranean. Are the carmina of
              Horace "a whole?" He certainly regarded them as such, as witness his
              peroration at the end of Book III. But then he came back to the job, after
              ten years and a little pressure from Augustus, and wrote more poetry, our
              Book IV. This we know because we know it (the correspondence of Augustus was
              supposedly preserved). But suppose we didn't? Could we still detect anything
              from the text alone? I think we could get at least a hint of the situation,
              starting with the manifest overridden ending that once closed Book III
              (exegi monumentum aere perennius), and continuing, at the deep analysis
              level, with a slightly different way with the Sapphic meter in Book IV than
              is seen in Books I-III. These are not impressions, and not prior agendas,
              they are facts about the text that anyone can rediscover for themselves with
              sufficient application. Those observational facts tend to suggest what, in
              this case, we know from outside evidence to be true.

              DENNIS: The onus on you is to show how they don't fit within the basic book,
              within the themes found in the book. To consider them as interpolations
              because they don't seem logical to you doesn't mean they are interpolated.

              BRUCE: Sorry, that's not how I proceed. If we're going to talk, let's at
              least be talking about the same thing. For what I actually do, please go
              back to the above.

              The nature miracles in Mark don't seem to me "logical," meaning that I
              consider them impossible. That's my personal judgement. But it has nothing
              to do with how the author of Mark regarded them, and it is Mark's take on
              them that I am interested in recovering, to the extent possible. I already
              know what *I* think. What I don't know is what *Mark* thinks (or the several
              Marks successively think).

              But I am working on it.

              Bruce

              E Bruce Brooks
              Warring States Project
              University of Massachusetts at Amherst
            • Dennis Dean Carpenter
              14:27. And Jesus said to them, You will all fall away, for it is written, I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered. 14:28. But after I am
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 13, 2008
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                "14:27. And Jesus said to them, You will all fall away, for it is written, I
                will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.

                14:28. But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.

                14:29. Peter said to him, Even though they all fall away, I will not. . .

                The point here is that the very remarkable assurance of Jesus in 14:28 is
                utterly ignored by Peter; instead, he responds with indignation to the
                prediction in 14:27. He behaves as though 14:28 were simply not there, and
                the implication is that when this passage was written, it was in fact not
                there, but was added later, presumably to give extra point to the
                Resurrection, and to show that it, like the Denials, was known in advance.
                That is the pattern that interpolated texts have, in any language. They
                interrupt the context, the context takes no note of them, and the context is
                made more consecutive when they are removed."

                Dennis: Not necessarily interpolated, if one looks at the attitude of the author toward Peter. (8:32-33, 9:5, 10:28, 14:37, 14:66-72). Then, we have the youth sitting at the tomb, having to remind the women to "tell the disciples, including Prock, he is going ahead of you to Galilee!" In the Gospel of Mark, the author's opinion of Peter is negative - he is portrayed among other things as rather stupid and forgetful. (I think that's the main reason he is nicknamed "Rock," as in "thick as a brick." Is 14:27-29 within the scope of the author's portrayal of this "sidekick?" I believe it is. While it may be an interpolation, Peter's behavior, forgetting what was just said, is very much characteristic of Peter, and pretty much the disciples as a group. Remember, after the first story of the feeding the multitudes, the author portrays them as having forgotten that the protagonist has already magically made the bread and fish multiply. So why is it odd that Peter doesn't "get it?" He rarely does.

                Dennis Dean Carpenter
                Dahlonega, Ga. .





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              • David Cavanagh
                ... My understanding of this and related issues is slightly different. I think we find it all too easy to see the disciples as foolish and slow of
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 13, 2008
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                  Dennis Dean Carpenter wrote:
                  >
                  > "14:27. And Jesus said to them, You will all fall away, for it is
                  > written, I
                  > will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.
                  >
                  > 14:28. But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.
                  >
                  > 14:29. Peter said to him, Even though they all fall away, I will not. . .
                  >
                  > The point here is that the very remarkable assurance of Jesus in 14:28 is
                  > utterly ignored by Peter; instead, he responds with indignation to the
                  > prediction in 14:27. He behaves as though 14:28 were simply not
                  > there...........
                  >











                  My understanding of this and related issues is slightly different. I
                  think we find it all too easy to see the disciples as foolish and slow
                  of understanding. In doing so, we forget that Jesus was essentially
                  speaking in "code" or that we have the benefit of hindsight. The Passion
                  and Resurrection predictions have undoubtedly been sharpened in the
                  light of Easter. When Jesus spoke of the "Son of Man" it would not have
                  been clear to the disciples that he was speaking of himself, and in this
                  instance it should be remembered that resurrection was expected at the
                  end of time......so Peter might have taken Jesus' statement as the
                  equivalent of the modern "one day God will set things to rights"
                  (expecting that day to still be a long way off). Simplistic? Maybe.......

                  David Cavanagh
                  Major (The Salvation Army)
                  Florence (Italy)



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                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Dennis, you state, In the Gospel of Mark, the author s opinion of Peter is negative -- he is portrayed among other things as rather stupid and forgetful, and
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 13, 2008
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                    Dennis, you state, "In the Gospel of Mark, the author's opinion of Peter is negative -- he is portrayed among other things as rather stupid and forgetful," and you add, "I think that's the main reason he is nicknamed 'Rock,' as in 'thick as a brick'."
                     
                    It's true that Peter doesn't give a very good impression in the Gospel of Mark, but that gospel gives no account of him receiving the nickname "Rock," and as you also note, his thickheadedness characterizes "pretty much the disciples as a group." In Matthew, of course, Peter is called "Rock" for a different reason than the one that you give.
                     
                    At any rate, do you have some evidence for your speculation about the nickname in Mark? Did the nickname "Rock" carry the implication in first-century Judaism that you suggest?
                     
                    Jeffery Hodges
                     

                    --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:

                    From: Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)
                    To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 11:16 AM

                    "14:27. And Jesus said to them, You will all fall away, for it is written,
                    I
                    will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.

                    14:28. But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.

                    14:29. Peter said to him, Even though they all fall away, I will not. . .

                    The point here is that the very remarkable assurance of Jesus in 14:28 is
                    utterly ignored by Peter; instead, he responds with indignation to the
                    prediction in 14:27. He behaves as though 14:28 were simply not there, and
                    the implication is that when this passage was written, it was in fact not
                    there, but was added later, presumably to give extra point to the
                    Resurrection, and to show that it, like the Denials, was known in advance.
                    That is the pattern that interpolated texts have, in any language. They
                    interrupt the context, the context takes no note of them, and the context is
                    made more consecutive when they are removed."

                    Dennis: Not necessarily interpolated, if one looks at the attitude of the
                    author toward Peter. (8:32-33, 9:5, 10:28, 14:37, 14:66-72). Then, we have the
                    youth sitting at the tomb, having to remind the women to "tell the
                    disciples, including Prock, he is going ahead of you to Galilee!" In the
                    Gospel of Mark, the author's opinion of Peter is negative - he is portrayed
                    among other things as rather stupid and forgetful. (I think that's the main
                    reason he is nicknamed "Rock," as in "thick as a brick." Is
                    14:27-29 within the scope of the author's portrayal of this
                    "sidekick?" I believe it is. While it may be an interpolation,
                    Peter's behavior, forgetting what was just said, is very much characteristic
                    of Peter, and pretty much the disciples as a group. Remember, after the first
                    story of the feeding the multitudes, the author portrays them as having
                    forgotten that the protagonist has already magically made the bread and fish
                    multiply. So why is it odd that Peter doesn't "get it?" He rarely
                    does.

                    Dennis Dean Carpenter
                    Dahlonega, Ga. .





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                  • E Bruce Brooks
                    To: Synoptic Cc: GPG In Response To: Dennis Dean Carpenter On: Mk 14:28 From: Bruce Dennis, you are not engaging my point. Instead, you are explaining the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 13, 2008
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                      To: Synoptic
                      Cc: GPG
                      In Response To: Dennis Dean Carpenter
                      On: Mk 14:28
                      From: Bruce

                      Dennis, you are not engaging my point. Instead, you are explaining the
                      passage by reference to a holistic interpretation.

                      Which is fine with me. You have previously indicated that you are satisfied
                      with your holistic view of Mark, and it's not my intention to disturb
                      anyone's equanimity. Those who are satisfied with Mark are perfectly
                      welcome, as far as I am concerned, to go on being satisfied with Mark. These
                      little notes of mine meant only for those who think that Mark may contain
                      difficulties of one sort or another which have not so far been
                      satisfactorily resolved by previous scholarship. Others are warmly
                      encouraged to ignore them.

                      I reply below pro forma, in case any Markanly dissatisfied persons on the
                      list may be interested.

                      Bruce

                      ---------------

                      I will do the rest of this as a Q and A on my immediately previous diagram
                      of Mk 14:28 in context.

                      Q: Not necessarily interpolated, if one looks at the attitude of the author
                      toward Peter. (8:32-33, 9:5, 10:28, 14:37, 14:66-72).

                      A: The interpolation is signaled simply by the fact that Peter in 14:29 does
                      not respond to 14:28 (the promise of Resurrection, which one would expect
                      might engage his attention) but rather to 14:27. He ignores 14:28.

                      As for the position of Peter in the text of Mark, it is sometimes very
                      positive (as at 8:30, where Peter is the only one to recognize Jesus as the
                      Messiah) and sometimes very negative (as at 8:33, where Jesus calls him
                      "Satan"). Peter in Mark runs the gamut from +10 to -10. Can't the author of
                      this text, assuming the text to be a unitary production and thus to *have* a
                      single author, can't that author make up his mind whether Peter is a good
                      guy or a bad guy?

                      Nor is Peter the only hard case for Markan consistency. Take Herod. We hear
                      in Mark fulminations against the Herodians, and warnings about "the leaven
                      of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod," and what this means we don't
                      know, but obviously it is bad. Herod killed John, and he has his agents
                      watching Jesus; and the Pharisees are conspiring with the Herodians how to
                      kill Jesus. So far, we have no trouble identifying the guys in the bad hats.
                      But then in addition to all this, we have an extended narrative of John in
                      prison, and Herod in that narrative is portrayed this way: "for Herod feared
                      John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and kept him safe. When
                      he heard him, he was much perplexed, and yet he heard him gladly." (Mk
                      6:20). Reminds me (doesn't it you?) of the appearances of Paul before
                      various sympathetic governors, who as the story has it, would have released
                      him, or been converted by him, save for the opposition of this or that
                      discontented and hostile party.

                      Anyway, here is Herod, the confused but willing listener to the Gospel. Does
                      Mark know which side he is on, or does he not? Is he a blithering idiot, or
                      is something else going on here? I have seen enough of the world not to rule
                      out the Blithering Idiot option incontinently, but perhaps the other
                      possibility deserves exploration first. I have been trying to conduct just
                      that sort of exploration.

                      Q: Then, we have the youth sitting at the tomb, having to remind the women
                      to "tell the disciples, including Prock, he is going ahead of you to
                      Galilee!"

                      A: I don't know about "having to." The youth, appearing miraculously, and
                      being supernaturally well informed about what Jesus has previously said (in
                      14:28!) to his disciples, tells the women that Jesus has risen, and then he
                      goes on to add that they should let the disciples and Peter know that Jesus
                      will be waiting for them in Galilee. To this second bit of rather remarkably
                      good news, they respond not with joy (unless you go with the Matthean
                      rewrite, which I do not recommend, but with fear and awe, at the evidence
                      and the confirming report that Jesus has risen from the dead, and is no
                      longer in the realm of the dead. That is, they react to the youth's words
                      *up to and including 16:6.* With the 16:7 Galilee detail, as has been
                      repeatedly mentioned and endlessly hashed over, they do nothing. This may be
                      their stupidity, though nothing in the previous narrative makes them
                      anything other than solicitous and devoted, or it may be that the 16:7
                      comment about Galilee was never made to them, in the narrative in which they
                      originally figured.

                      Suppose we elect to try out the latter option, just as a mental exercise.
                      Then there immediately vanishes, dare I suggest, the old problem of the
                      women's "disobedience." The women, on that assumption, are not disobedient.
                      They react perfectly appropriately to the cosmic event which they have just
                      come up against.

                      Q: In the Gospel of Mark, the author's opinion of Peter is negative - he is
                      portrayed among other things as rather stupid and forgetful. (I think that's
                      the main reason he is nicknamed "Rock," as in "thick as a brick." Is
                      14:27-29 within the scope of the author's portrayal of this "sidekick?" I
                      believe it is.

                      A: No. See next.

                      Q: While it may be an interpolation, Peter's behavior, forgetting what was
                      just said, is very much characteristic of Peter, . . .

                      A: Unfortunately, not all the time (see above). The portrait of Peter in
                      Mark is radically inconsistent. Where he is seen as stupid, we may be
                      reminded of his other stupid moments. Where is is insightful, we may be
                      reminded of his general leadership among the group. In general, I think it
                      is methodologically unsound to use an inconsistent whole to justify the
                      inconsistent details. As to this particular detail (to repeat once again),
                      the problem with Peter and 14:28 is not that he misunderstands it, it is
                      that he does not react to it at all. It is not a source of confusion to him,
                      it simply doesn't exist for him.

                      Q: . . . and pretty much the disciples as a group.

                      A: We have now changed the subject, but I am willing to admit that the
                      disciples as a group also have consistency problems.

                      Q: Remember, after the first story of the feeding the multitudes, the
                      author portrays them as having forgotten that the protagonist has already
                      magically made the bread and fish multiply.

                      A: That particular passage gets us into the famous "doublet" problem with
                      the Two Feedings (not to mention the Two Spit Healings, and other seeming
                      duplications that cluster in this part of the text. It would be a long
                      digression to take up that problem now, and I ask leave to defer it to a
                      separate message. Instead, let's return to Peter.

                      Q: So why is it odd that Peter doesn't "get it?" He rarely does.

                      A: The point of 14:28 is not that Peter does not understand about the
                      Appearance in Galilee, but that he does not even hear the sentence in which
                      that Appearance is announced. The narrative fails to connect with itself.
                      This is what folks mean by the word "inconcinnity."

                      When the striking 14:28 (which Peter does not misunderstand, but simply
                      ignores) is removed, we have a perfectly coherent and consecutive narrative,
                      in which Peter *does* respond to what Jesus says, and with a rather likeable
                      indignation at the prediction of his later defection. That restored
                      narrative goes like this:

                      RESTORATION
                      And Jesus said to them, You will all fall away, for it is written, I will
                      strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered. Peter said to him,
                      Even though they all fall away, I will not. And Jesus said to him, Truly, I
                      say to you, this very night, before the cock crows twice, you will deny me
                      three times. But he said vehemently, If I must die with you, I will not deny
                      you. And they all said the same.

                      Isn't that simple, dramatic, effective, and narratively consistent? Wouldn't
                      it be nice if all the Markan story were this straightforward and coherent?

                      Well, maybe it was, at one time, before some of these interruptions and
                      insertions and geographically haywire meanderings were stuck into the text.

                      It is that possibility that I am pursuing with this series of notes. For
                      those who may be interested. To the others, my apology for the interruption,
                      and my best wishes of the season.

                      Bruce

                      E Bruce Brooks
                      Warring States Project
                      University of Massachusetts at Amherst
                    • Chuck Jones
                      I m not sure how this fits in, but I would like to point out that the two miracles we are discussing are numbers 2 and 3 in a set of 4 miracles that Mark
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 13, 2008
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                        I'm not sure how this fits in, but I would like to point out that the two miracles we are discussing are numbers 2 and 3 in a set of 4 miracles that Mark has placed within a single day.
                         
                        In Mk, chs 4 and 5 create "A Day in the Life of Jesus," starting with an entire day of teaching.  Jesus wants to get away and rest, but is interrupted 4 times.  First, he stops a sea storm, second, he is confronted with a legion of demons, third a multi-decade chronic illness, and, fourth, death itself.
                         
                        This is a series of power encounters against the great fears and uncontrollables of the pre-modern world in which Jesus prevails in every case.  (The construct of a single day ends with the begining of ch. 6.  Jesus never did get to rest.)
                         
                        Rev. Chuck Jones
                        Atlanta, Georgia

                        --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...> wrote:

                        From: Dennis Dean Carpenter <ddcanne@...>
                        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)
                        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 5:31 PM






                        Bruce, I think we are not going anywhere with this. I was preparing a reply to your other post and saw the one that began, "In response to Jeffery Hodges, Dennis had said, in part..." You seemed to be trying to look at individual parts to determine some kind of early versus late construction of parts of Mark. In lieu of an autograph, I'd need more. I'm looking at the gospel as a whole, thematically. I'm looking to see if those pieces fit. They do. The onus on you is to show how they don't fit within the basic book, within the themes found in the book. To consider them as interpolations because they don't seem logical to you doesn't mean they are interpolated.

                        Let's use this interpolation logic in the Markan story of the fig tree. He curses it, then he leaves to have a temple incident, then he comes back and it has withered. A logic of interpolation would have the temple incident as an interpolation. Of course, I don't know of anyone who believes that. We look at it symbolically.

                        We have a ruler of a synagogue with a dying 12 year old daughter. On his way to heal her, he is touched by a woman with a 12 year discharge. She is healed. The daughter has died. Jesus touches her and she is now alive. He tells them to feed her. We have the number twelve, we have touching of the unclean, we have healing in both stories. More importantly, we have a synagogue ruler who wasn't concerned about ritual purity. We have a Jewish believer who is a "ruler." That is indeed not that common. Maybe this part was interpolated. How often are the priests and scholars dealt with favorably in Mark? No, it seems to me that this whole section, as a block, was an example of the enlightenment of the believers (Jairus and the woman).

                        Actually, there is another way to present your case, if you look at the Greek in the block. There seems to be an important difference, though I'm just beginning my Greek "voyage."

                        Dennis Dean Carpenter
                        Dahlonega, Ga.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Dennis Dean Carpenter
                        Yeah, and in the section just before four, he can not even get a bite to eat. Interpolation or another one of those darned interruptions! Dennis Dean
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 13, 2008
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                          Yeah, and in the section just before four, he can not even get a bite to eat. Interpolation or another one of those darned interruptions!
                          Dennis Dean Carpenter


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Chuck Jones
                          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 2:37 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Markan Triplet (3:10 etc)


                          I'm not sure how this fits in, but I would like to point out that the two miracles we are discussing are numbers 2 and 3 in a set of 4 miracles that Mark has placed within a single day.

                          In Mk, chs 4 and 5 create "A Day in the Life of Jesus," starting with an entire day of teaching. Jesus wants to get away and rest, but is interrupted 4 times. First, he stops a sea storm, second, he is confronted with a legion of demons, third a multi-decade chronic illness, and, fourth, death itself.

                          This is a series of power encounters against the great fears and uncontrollables of the pre-modern world in which Jesus prevails in every case. (The construct of a single day ends with the begining of ch. 6. Jesus never did get to rest.)

                          Rev. Chuck Jones
                          Atlanta, Georgia


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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • E Bruce Brooks
                          To: Synoptic Cc: GPG; WSW Not Quite In Response To: Chuck Jones From: Bruce I am not going to interlineate this one (for which nevertheless thanks); I am going
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 13, 2008
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                            To: Synoptic
                            Cc: GPG; WSW
                            Not Quite In Response To: Chuck Jones
                            From: Bruce

                            I am not going to interlineate this one (for which nevertheless thanks); I
                            am going to repeat it and then reflect on it. Here is what Chuck said:

                            "I'm not sure how this fits in, but I would like to point out that the two
                            miracles we are discussing are numbers 2 and 3 in a set of 4 miracles that
                            Mark has placed within a single day. / In Mk, chs 4 and 5 create "A Day in
                            the Life of Jesus," starting with an entire day of teaching. Jesus wants to
                            get away and rest, but is interrupted 4 times. First, he stops a sea storm,
                            second, he is confronted with a legion of demons, third a multi-decade
                            chronic illness, and, fourth, death itself. / This is a series of power
                            encounters against the great fears and uncontrollables of the pre-modern
                            world in which Jesus prevails in every case. (The construct of a single day
                            ends with the beginning of ch. 6. Jesus never did get to rest)."

                            MEDITATION I

                            There is a classical Chinese book called Jwangdz; fans of Thomas Merton and
                            perhaps some others will have heard of it. It is very funny, very
                            antigovernmental, very agreeable in parts to certain aspects of our modern
                            sensibility. The prevailing view is that the lower-numbered chapters are
                            earlier, and the higher-numbered ones later, maybe even Han Dynasty (the
                            Empire; the postclassical period). So what parts of it do the Han literary
                            folks like, and thus regard as unquestionably authentic? The lower-numbered
                            chapters? Not in a million years. Rather: the higher-numbered chapters. The
                            ones closest to them in time, and thus the ones closest to their own
                            philosophical sensibilities. The ones that speak most directly to their
                            concerns and condition.

                            It is very natural, once you think of it. The most recent thing, the most
                            evolved, is what most appeals to posterity, whether proximal or remote. I
                            don't quite want to make it a rule, but it is at least a regularity, one
                            that we should not be surprised to meet again.

                            I seem to meet it again in Chuck's appreciation of the miracles in Mk 4-5,
                            and his disinterest in the Sermon By The Sea parables. And why? My a priori
                            suspicion (coming out of a good deal of watching texts and readers at work
                            together, in different parts of the world) would be: Maybe because the
                            miracles are later than the parables. That is Suspicion 1, not yet a proof,
                            but perhaps actionable as a suspicion. Let us entertain it, and see what
                            happens. We can always go back and push the UNDO button and return to the
                            status quo ante, if we find it gets us nowhere.

                            MEDITATION II

                            Suspicion 2 is that in the Four Gospels taken together, we can see a process
                            of progressive divinization of Jesus, through the miraculous birth of
                            Matthew and Luke to the cosmic identity of John. There is thus a perfectly
                            visible and verifiable tendency, over time, for the Jesus community to
                            promote Jesus into the top position. Suspicion 2a is that this process may
                            apply, not just *between* the Four Gospels, but *within* the Earliest
                            Gospel, namely Mark. The accretional theory of Mark, on which I seem to have
                            a copyright as well as sole possession, is also a theory that Mark, the
                            text, was progressively upgraded so as to keep pace with developing ideas in
                            the community to which that text was somehow responsive. (Just like
                            Microsoft automatically upgraded my antivirus software last night, while I
                            wasn't looking, to keep pace with the bad people who think up the viruses.
                            Our modern version of Controversy Stories).

                            I look at those miracles in Mk 4-5, and I see a conspicuous mixture. There
                            are rather humble healings (with mutterings in Aramaic, and a personal
                            touch, and advice to the parents to see that the patient gets something to
                            eat). There are also grand exorcisms, where Jesus is not besought, but
                            actually worshipped (Mk 5:6) by the sufferer, and where the possession is
                            not by one demon, no, that would be piddling, but by Two Thousand Demons,
                            who after a fully reported contest of wills are sent into an equal number of
                            pigs, and are ironically drowned in the sea. Here Jesus is not picking the
                            wax out of some hard of hearing person's ear, he is mastering supernatural
                            beings with his own superior supernatural power. And that is not enough to
                            wow the audience? Very good, we can improve on it. Over here is Jesus
                            speaking words of rebuke, not to demons, but to Nature Itself, and Nature
                            Itself meekly obeying, so that the dazzled disciples ask, What sort of a guy
                            IS this, anyways?

                            I trust that the steady ratcheting up of the power level will be obvious. If
                            Jesus can command Nature, what is he doing in the same chapter bringing
                            little girls out of comas, when a command to Nature will so much more
                            dazzlingly make his point? Let him call down fire and rain, or if they are
                            already there, let him bid them cease. Never mind this aches and pains
                            stuff. Answer, he would NOT be doing so, any more than the Dean of the
                            Medical School still takes Saturdays off from his job to prescribe aspirins
                            for the neighborhood children. No, the human probability is that we are here
                            confronted with several additive (but haphazardly placed) layers of
                            successively more grandiose persona construction.

                            MEDITATION III

                            People seem not to get the hang of the idea of using textual signs of
                            interpolation as a guide to layering in a text. 100 years ago, it would have
                            been second nature for anyone humanistically educated, but apparently it is
                            no longer 100 years ago. Tsk. Julius Wellhausen, thou shouldst be living at
                            this hour. We therefore have no empirical, fine-grained evidence to support
                            our previous suspicions, or at least no empirical, fine-grained evidence
                            that is evident to all parties. There, as it might be, is the end of our
                            imaginings.

                            But wait: sooner or later it is going to occur to somebody with an hour and
                            a half and a pencil on their hands (say, in the airport, in these ever more
                            difficult days) to ask, What if we separate out on paper all the Really
                            Cosmic Miracles, and on another sheet the Masterful Exorcisms, and on still
                            another the Country Doc Healings? Would each of those three bodies of
                            material, thus arbitrarily defined, have ANY OTHER DISTINCTIVE FEATURES? CAN
                            THEY BE CODEFINED?

                            They would. They can. But I am not saying how. Not until Monday the 24th, at
                            7 AM in the Sheridan Conference Room. See you there, and bring your sheets
                            of airport paper with you. AND your pencil.

                            MEDITATION IV

                            Meanwhile, as a final note of sympathy for the working man: If we take out
                            the aggrandizing additions to these two chapters, does Jesus have a more
                            nearly normal day? The very question assumes that Mark meant to represent it
                            as a day, and I think this may be doubted. Look at the end of the Sermon By
                            The Sea, 4:33 "With many such parables he spoke the Word to them, as they
                            were able to hear it." I think this suggests that the foregoing parables are
                            after all not a transcript of a single sermon, but a sample of Jesus's
                            preaching, conveniently collected into one place. As though to say, "Here is
                            the kind of thing Jesus used to say tpo the crowds when he was speaking to
                            them." Mark likes to group things: teaching parables, conflict stories, and
                            the like. It is this characteristic, I suspect, which gets people like
                            Papias down on him for having no real time sequence, over much of his
                            Gospel, just a sort of arrangement of material classified by type.
                            Convenient, and usable, but without narrative force.

                            Papias, as I understand from Eusebius, was one of history's all-time
                            weirdos, but not even weirdos are wrong all the time. Some of them have a
                            rather developed, even an acute, literary sense. Their hints are thus
                            sometimes worth taking, just like everybody else's.

                            Bruce

                            E Bruce Brooks
                            Warring States Project
                            University of Massachusetts at Amherst
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