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Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark's Informants

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  • E Bruce Brooks
    To: Synoptic Cc: GPG In Response To: Adam Crumpton On: Mark s Informants From: Bruce ADAM: I would think that any believer who had some personal anecdote
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 1, 2008
      To: Synoptic
      Cc: GPG
      In Response To: Adam Crumpton
      On: Mark's Informants
      From: Bruce

      ADAM: I would think that any believer who had some personal anecdote
      concerning Jesus (especially about the intrigue surrounding his death) would
      have told their story every chance they got. And since according
      to Acts, many Pharisees came to believe, the story of Judas' betrayal could
      have come to light through any number of channels.

      BRUCE: I think we have to take Acts as later tradition. Also, would any
      Pharisees have been present when Judas met with the group which Mark labels
      only as "the chief priests?" It is true that other passages here and there
      in Mark group Pharisees and scribes and Herodians and Goodness knows who
      else as in league against Jesus. That is not necessarily earliest Markan
      tradition (see again Adela Yarbro Collins' reconstruction of what I would
      call the Passion section of Proto-Mark:

      http://www.umass.edu/wsp/biblica/quest/index.html).

      And how much did believer attention immediately focus on the intrigue, as
      distinct from merely the treachery, of Judas? How prominent was hatred of
      Jesus in the growing believer tradition? My own reading (for which I can
      make a detailed argument if desired) is that this is one of the themes that
      developed in the early Church, and was not always present at the same level.
      Deferring the detailed argument, notice what I will call the Judas
      Trajectory among the Gospels:

      FATE OF JUDAS
      Mark: Not mentioned, and presumably of no great interest
      Matthew: Returns the money; hangs himself
      Luke > Acts 1:18f: Bought a field, fell down, his bowels gushed out
      John: [Nothing; the necessity of Jesus' death is explicit]

      I think the signs, as far as they go, are consistent, and suggest that anger
      against Judas did not gather much mythic steam until after Mark was written,
      meaning that it is precisely myth and not report. Mark's readers may well
      have had their own feelings of repugnance at the treachery of Judas, but
      those feelings seem not to have been given scriptural form until the second
      tier Gospels. No?

      Bruce

      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project
      University of Massachusetts at Amherst
    • Dennis Dean Carpenter
      If we look at Mark through a literary lens (strictly at Mark) and see the possibility that the twelve disciples (Mark 3) are symbols, like the sons of Jacob
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 8, 2008
        If we look at Mark through a literary lens (strictly at Mark) and see the possibility that "the twelve" disciples (Mark 3) are symbols, like the sons of Jacob (Gen. 35), we find that the only common name in the two lists is "Judas/Judah." In the grand scheme of Mark, we have the fictional Judas (Mark 14) turning Jesus over to the henchmen of the priests, scholars and elders. This implicitly connects the Judeans (or Jews) as the unenlightened (which is generally how the Markan protagonist Jesus treats the disciples) who killed their messiah. I don't see a compelling reason to treat "Judas" as a historical figure.

        Dennis Dean Carpenter
        Dahlonega, Ga.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Karel Hanhart
        I second Dennis position here. The expression one of the twelve is too emphatic in Mc 14 to deny the fictinal role of Iscariot in Mark s grand scheme .
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 19, 2008
          I second Dennis' position here. The expression "one of the twelve" is too emphatic in Mc 14 to deny the "fictinal"role of Iscariot in Mark's "grand scheme". This grand scheme was FORMALLY taken from the rhetoric of a Greek tragedy (so rightly Benoit Standaert), while IN CONTENT it is a (messianic ) hagada concerning Israel's passover. The cup (trublion) - a near hapax - is unmistably connected with all of Numb 7 and the legend of the twelve tribes contributing to the house of God.

          cordially

          Karel.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Dennis Dean Carpenter
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 9:30 PM
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Mark's Informants


          If we look at Mark through a literary lens (strictly at Mark) and see the possibility that "the twelve" disciples (Mark 3) are symbols, like the sons of Jacob (Gen. 35), we find that the only common name in the two lists is "Judas/Judah." In the grand scheme of Mark, we have the fictional Judas (Mark 14) turning Jesus over to the henchmen of the priests, scholars and elders. This implicitly connects the Judeans (or Jews) as the unenlightened (which is generally how the Markan protagonist Jesus treats the disciples) who killed their messiah. I don't see a compelling reason to treat "Judas" as a historical figure.

          Dennis Dean Carpenter
          Dahlonega, Ga.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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