Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP

Expand Messages
  • John Lupia
    Jeffery I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Jeffery

      I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions. I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.

      John N. Lupia III

      New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

      God Bless Everyone

      --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
      From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 2:46 PM











      John Lupia wrote:

      > >From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs.



      I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct

      acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st

      century, on the shape of the pre 70 CE synagogal liturgy, on the

      meanings that such ideas as "hallowing the name" had within 1st century

      Palestinian Judaism, and on the form and aim of the Amidah and the

      Kadish etc. informs your understanding of what is "intuitively obvious".



      I'm also interested in knowing what evidence you can produce that Jesus

      intended the LP to be a prayer that would be said to him, let alone that

      it was ever viewed by any Patristic commentator (who seemingly would

      know that this was the case if it was) as such.anyone of within the

      Church fathers as such.



      > The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a

      > single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these

      > elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers.

      I take it you've not read Israel Abraham's of Joseph Heinemenn's review

      of this claim? In any case, what **actual** (not hypothetically

      postulated) pre-existing Jewish prayers in which these elements are

      indeed found can you point me to?



      Jeffrey



      --

      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)

      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.

      Chicago, Illinois

      e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net





























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and others who
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        John Lupia wrote:
        > Jeffery
        >
        > I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions.
        Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are
        not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and
        others who say that the matrix of the LP is the liturgy of the
        synagogue, as you would surely know if you had any direct acquaintance
        with LP scholarship.
        > I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.
        >
        So you won't back up YOUR claim that Jesus intended the LP to be
        something that was to be addressed to him or that "The LP is
        compendious pulling together" into "a single concise prayer formula" of
        elements that can be found in "various preexisting" Jewish prayers by
        naming these pre existing prayers and showing that what's in the LP can
        be found in them?.

        Why is that?

        Jeffrey?

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • John Lupia
        ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday,
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 5, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
          From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 11:50 PM











          John Lupia wrote:

          > Jeffery

          >

          > I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions.

          Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are

          not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and

          others who say that the matrix of the LP is the liturgy of the

          synagogue, as you would surely know if you had any direct acquaintance

          with LP scholarship.

          > I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.

          >

          So you won't back up YOUR claim that Jesus intended the LP to be

          something that was to be addressed to him or that "The LP is

          compendious pulling together" into "a single concise prayer formula" of

          elements that can be found in "various preexisting" Jewish prayers by

          naming these pre existing prayers and showing that what's in the LP can

          be found in them?.



          Why is that?



          JeffreyI simply don't care.



          -- John N. Lupia III

          New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

          God Bless Everyone
          .

























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.