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Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP

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  • John Lupia
    From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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      From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs. The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a
      single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these
      elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers. I am not clear on what it is you hope to accomplish outside of my comments? 


      Best regards,
      John


      John N. Lupia III

      New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

      God Bless Everyone

      --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
      From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
      To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 1:58 PM











      John Lupia wrote:

      > Jeffrey

      >

      > The LP is transparently Jewish in nature and certainly needs no argument to demonstrate it.

      If you'll read my message carefully, you'll note that contrary to what

      you seem to have read into it, the issue I am dealing with has nothing

      to do with whether or not the nature of the LP is Jewish, let alone

      whether it reflects "Jewish" theology. It's whether the matrix of the

      form and the sentiment and the substance of the LP are certain prayers

      reputedly said to be statutory parts of the liturgy in 1st century

      synagogues.



      Jeffrey



      --

      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)

      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.

      Chicago, Illinois

      e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net





























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st century, on the shape of
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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        John Lupia wrote:
        > >From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs.

        I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct
        acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st
        century, on the shape of the pre 70 CE synagogal liturgy, on the
        meanings that such ideas as "hallowing the name" had within 1st century
        Palestinian Judaism, and on the form and aim of the Amidah and the
        Kadish etc. informs your understanding of what is "intuitively obvious".

        I'm also interested in knowing what evidence you can produce that Jesus
        intended the LP to be a prayer that would be said to him, let alone that
        it was ever viewed by any Patristic commentator (who seemingly would
        know that this was the case if it was) as such.anyone of within the
        Church fathers as such.

        > The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a
        > single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these
        > elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers.
        I take it you've not read Israel Abraham's of Joseph Heinemenn's review
        of this claim? In any case, what **actual** (not hypothetically
        postulated) pre-existing Jewish prayers in which these elements are
        indeed found can you point me to?

        Jeffrey

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • John Lupia
        Jeffery I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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          Jeffery

          I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions. I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.

          John N. Lupia III

          New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

          God Bless Everyone

          --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
          From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
          To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 2:46 PM











          John Lupia wrote:

          > >From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs.



          I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct

          acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st

          century, on the shape of the pre 70 CE synagogal liturgy, on the

          meanings that such ideas as "hallowing the name" had within 1st century

          Palestinian Judaism, and on the form and aim of the Amidah and the

          Kadish etc. informs your understanding of what is "intuitively obvious".



          I'm also interested in knowing what evidence you can produce that Jesus

          intended the LP to be a prayer that would be said to him, let alone that

          it was ever viewed by any Patristic commentator (who seemingly would

          know that this was the case if it was) as such.anyone of within the

          Church fathers as such.



          > The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a

          > single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these

          > elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers.

          I take it you've not read Israel Abraham's of Joseph Heinemenn's review

          of this claim? In any case, what **actual** (not hypothetically

          postulated) pre-existing Jewish prayers in which these elements are

          indeed found can you point me to?



          Jeffrey



          --

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.

          Chicago, Illinois

          e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net





























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and others who
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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            John Lupia wrote:
            > Jeffery
            >
            > I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions.
            Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are
            not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and
            others who say that the matrix of the LP is the liturgy of the
            synagogue, as you would surely know if you had any direct acquaintance
            with LP scholarship.
            > I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.
            >
            So you won't back up YOUR claim that Jesus intended the LP to be
            something that was to be addressed to him or that "The LP is
            compendious pulling together" into "a single concise prayer formula" of
            elements that can be found in "various preexisting" Jewish prayers by
            naming these pre existing prayers and showing that what's in the LP can
            be found in them?.

            Why is that?

            Jeffrey?

            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...
          • John Lupia
            ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday,
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 5, 2008
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              --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
              From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
              Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
              To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 11:50 PM











              John Lupia wrote:

              > Jeffery

              >

              > I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions.

              Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are

              not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and

              others who say that the matrix of the LP is the liturgy of the

              synagogue, as you would surely know if you had any direct acquaintance

              with LP scholarship.

              > I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.

              >

              So you won't back up YOUR claim that Jesus intended the LP to be

              something that was to be addressed to him or that "The LP is

              compendious pulling together" into "a single concise prayer formula" of

              elements that can be found in "various preexisting" Jewish prayers by

              naming these pre existing prayers and showing that what's in the LP can

              be found in them?.



              Why is that?



              JeffreyI simply don't care.



              -- John N. Lupia III

              New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

              God Bless Everyone
              .

























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