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Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    ... If you ll read my message carefully, you ll note that contrary to what you seem to have read into it, the issue I am dealing with has nothing to do with
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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      John Lupia wrote:
      > Jeffrey
      >
      > The LP is transparently Jewish in nature and certainly needs no argument to demonstrate it.
      If you'll read my message carefully, you'll note that contrary to what
      you seem to have read into it, the issue I am dealing with has nothing
      to do with whether or not the nature of the LP is Jewish, let alone
      whether it reflects "Jewish" theology. It's whether the matrix of the
      form and the sentiment and the substance of the LP are certain prayers
      reputedly said to be statutory parts of the liturgy in 1st century
      synagogues.

      Jeffrey

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...
    • John Lupia
      From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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        From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs. The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a
        single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these
        elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers. I am not clear on what it is you hope to accomplish outside of my comments? 


        Best regards,
        John


        John N. Lupia III

        New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

        God Bless Everyone

        --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
        From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
        Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
        To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 1:58 PM











        John Lupia wrote:

        > Jeffrey

        >

        > The LP is transparently Jewish in nature and certainly needs no argument to demonstrate it.

        If you'll read my message carefully, you'll note that contrary to what

        you seem to have read into it, the issue I am dealing with has nothing

        to do with whether or not the nature of the LP is Jewish, let alone

        whether it reflects "Jewish" theology. It's whether the matrix of the

        form and the sentiment and the substance of the LP are certain prayers

        reputedly said to be statutory parts of the liturgy in 1st century

        synagogues.



        Jeffrey



        --

        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)

        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.

        Chicago, Illinois

        e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net





























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st century, on the shape of
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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          John Lupia wrote:
          > >From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs.

          I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct
          acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st
          century, on the shape of the pre 70 CE synagogal liturgy, on the
          meanings that such ideas as "hallowing the name" had within 1st century
          Palestinian Judaism, and on the form and aim of the Amidah and the
          Kadish etc. informs your understanding of what is "intuitively obvious".

          I'm also interested in knowing what evidence you can produce that Jesus
          intended the LP to be a prayer that would be said to him, let alone that
          it was ever viewed by any Patristic commentator (who seemingly would
          know that this was the case if it was) as such.anyone of within the
          Church fathers as such.

          > The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a
          > single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these
          > elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers.
          I take it you've not read Israel Abraham's of Joseph Heinemenn's review
          of this claim? In any case, what **actual** (not hypothetically
          postulated) pre-existing Jewish prayers in which these elements are
          indeed found can you point me to?

          Jeffrey

          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • John Lupia
          Jeffery I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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            Jeffery

            I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions. I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.

            John N. Lupia III

            New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

            God Bless Everyone

            --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
            From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
            To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 2:46 PM











            John Lupia wrote:

            > >From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs.



            I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct

            acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st

            century, on the shape of the pre 70 CE synagogal liturgy, on the

            meanings that such ideas as "hallowing the name" had within 1st century

            Palestinian Judaism, and on the form and aim of the Amidah and the

            Kadish etc. informs your understanding of what is "intuitively obvious".



            I'm also interested in knowing what evidence you can produce that Jesus

            intended the LP to be a prayer that would be said to him, let alone that

            it was ever viewed by any Patristic commentator (who seemingly would

            know that this was the case if it was) as such.anyone of within the

            Church fathers as such.



            > The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a

            > single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these

            > elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers.

            I take it you've not read Israel Abraham's of Joseph Heinemenn's review

            of this claim? In any case, what **actual** (not hypothetically

            postulated) pre-existing Jewish prayers in which these elements are

            indeed found can you point me to?



            Jeffrey



            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.

            Chicago, Illinois

            e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net





























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and others who
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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              John Lupia wrote:
              > Jeffery
              >
              > I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions.
              Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are
              not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and
              others who say that the matrix of the LP is the liturgy of the
              synagogue, as you would surely know if you had any direct acquaintance
              with LP scholarship.
              > I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.
              >
              So you won't back up YOUR claim that Jesus intended the LP to be
              something that was to be addressed to him or that "The LP is
              compendious pulling together" into "a single concise prayer formula" of
              elements that can be found in "various preexisting" Jewish prayers by
              naming these pre existing prayers and showing that what's in the LP can
              be found in them?.

              Why is that?

              Jeffrey?

              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • John Lupia
              ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday,
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 5, 2008
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                --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
                Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
                To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 11:50 PM











                John Lupia wrote:

                > Jeffery

                >

                > I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions.

                Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are

                not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and

                others who say that the matrix of the LP is the liturgy of the

                synagogue, as you would surely know if you had any direct acquaintance

                with LP scholarship.

                > I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.

                >

                So you won't back up YOUR claim that Jesus intended the LP to be

                something that was to be addressed to him or that "The LP is

                compendious pulling together" into "a single concise prayer formula" of

                elements that can be found in "various preexisting" Jewish prayers by

                naming these pre existing prayers and showing that what's in the LP can

                be found in them?.



                Why is that?



                JeffreyI simply don't care.



                -- John N. Lupia III

                New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

                God Bless Everyone
                .

























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