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the Synagogue as matrix of the LP

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    With apologies for cross posting: I m back at work on the question of the synagogue and its liturgy as the matrix of the LP, so I d like feedback on whether
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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      With apologies for cross posting:

      I'm back at work on the question of the synagogue and its liturgy as the
      matrix of the LP, so I'd like feedback on whether or not I've laid out
      fully and correctly the assumptions that stand behind this claim.

      With thanks in advance,

      Jeffrey

      ****
      A claim made with great frequency by commentators on the LP -- and
      especially by those who view the LP as an eschatological prayer (i.e.,
      one whose aim is to pray down into "the now" things that, from first
      century Jewish assumptions about time, properly belong to the "age to
      come" -- is that the matrix of this prayer -- the setting from which
      its form, its themes, its sentiments, and even the materials within it
      are drawn -- is the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue, and more
      particularly the prayers of this liturgy known as the Amidah, the
      Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer.

      The claim is grounded in five assumptions.

      1. that Jesus not only came, from a people who knew how to pray, who did
      so according to fixed patterns, and who were disciplined in its
      practice at home and within the synagogue from early youth on, (so J.
      Jeremias, "Daily Prayer in the Life of Jesus and the Primitive Church"
      in his The Prayers of Jesus (SCM), 66-67), but that since he himself
      presumably matured within the influence of the synagogue (as Luke 4:16
      indicates), his understanding of the forms and language in which prayer
      should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by what, through
      "sacred association", he had learned there about these matters.

      Cf. C.M. Laymon, The Lord's Prayer in its Biblical Setting
      [Nashville & New York, Abinbgdon (1968), 32-33 -- "Just as most
      present day Christians who are reared in the Church have their
      conception and practice of prayer influenced by this fact, Jesus'
      thought of prayer and his own prayer life must have been affected by
      the Synagogue"


      2. that in the first century the Jewish -- and particularly the
      Galilean -- synagogue was not only a place of prayer but that it had an
      established liturgy.

      3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer as we have come
      to know them from 2nd century testimony about their shape and wording
      played prominent parts within it

      4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological

      5. that there are resemblances between the form and language of the
      Lord's Prayer on the one hand and that of the liturgical prayers of the
      synagogue and that these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Lupia
      Jeffrey The LP is transparently Jewish in nature and certainly needs no argument to demonstrate it. The 10 clauses listed below are naturally those any devout
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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        Jeffrey

        The LP is transparently Jewish in nature and certainly needs no argument to demonstrate it. The 10 clauses listed below are naturally those any devout Jew would petition God in various formulas that would certainly be similar resembling one another.

        1. Our Father, reflects God as Father of all human persons, typical in any Jewish prayer before Christ.

        2. Who art in heaven, reflects the ancient Jewish belief that God dwells in heaven.

        3. Hallowed be Thy name, reflects the ancient Jewish belief that God's name is holy, so holy it was not revealed even to Moses, hence Jews resorted to the sacred tetragrammaton.

        4. Thy Kingdom come, reflects the ancient Jewish belief and yearning that God's kingdom would come to earth also rooted in ancient prophesies of the expectant Messiah.

        5. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, reflects the ancient Jewish belief that God can accomplish His will without obstruction on earth as it is heaven if people pray for His divine intervention, and He also does this to demonstrate His supreme majesty over all creation.

        6. Give us this day our daily bread, reflects the ancient Jewish belief that God  in His divine providence gave us an abundance of good things on earth for our sustenance and that through our labor we can enjoy them; and for those poor He will provide either directly in the natural order or directly through some supernatural means as the Marna in the desert, or else through human intervention.

        7. Forgive us our trespasses, reflects the ancient Jewish belief that God is the supreme judge of humanity who can show mercy and forgiveness.

        8. As we forgive those who trespass against us, reflects the ancient Jewish belief that God favors those who show mercy and forgiveness.

        9. Lead us not into temptation, reflects the ancient Jewish belief that God delivers us from the lures of earthly temptation to violate His divine laws and separate us from Him.

        10 Deliver us from evil, reflects the ancient Jewish belief that God delivers us from all evil.

        The implication of your assumptions is that the historical Jesus is merely an ordinary human person, who like all people needs to learn from the superstructure in which he is born, and a mere product of that historical culture. If this assumption  is true there is no point outside of mere curiosity of the historian and historiography to even wish to discuss this.

        There is another assumption not reflected in any of yours that Jesus is God incarnate who is the very One prayed to in the synagogues and formulated His prayer so that it would be familiar to monotheistic Jews and would make sense to future converts and serve as a practical guide in approaching Him.

        John

        John N. Lupia III

        New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

        God Bless Everyone

        --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
        From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
        Subject: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
        To: "Crosstalk2" <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: christian_origins@yahoogroups.com, "biblical-studies" <biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com>, "NewSynoptic" <Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 11:34 AM











        With apologies for cross posting:



        I'm back at work on the question of the synagogue and its liturgy as the

        matrix of the LP, so I'd like feedback on whether or not I've laid out

        fully and correctly the assumptions that stand behind this claim.



        With thanks in advance,



        Jeffrey



        ****

        A claim made with great frequency by commentators on the LP -- and

        especially by those who view the LP as an eschatological prayer (i.e.,

        one whose aim is to pray down into "the now" things that, from first

        century Jewish assumptions about time, properly belong to the "age to

        come" -- is that the matrix of this prayer -- the setting from which

        its form, its themes, its sentiments, and even the materials within it

        are drawn -- is the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue, and more

        particularly the prayers of this liturgy known as the Amidah, the

        Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer.



        The claim is grounded in five assumptions.



        1. that Jesus not only came, from a people who knew how to pray, who did

        so according to fixed patterns, and who were disciplined in its

        practice at home and within the synagogue from early youth on, (so J.

        Jeremias, "Daily Prayer in the Life of Jesus and the Primitive Church"

        in his The Prayers of Jesus (SCM), 66-67), but that since he himself

        presumably matured within the influence of the synagogue (as Luke 4:16

        indicates), his understanding of the forms and language in which prayer

        should be uttered would have been guided and shaped by what, through

        "sacred association" , he had learned there about these matters.



        Cf. C.M. Laymon, The Lord's Prayer in its Biblical Setting

        [Nashville & New York, Abinbgdon (1968), 32-33 -- "Just as most

        present day Christians who are reared in the Church have their

        conception and practice of prayer influenced by this fact, Jesus'

        thought of prayer and his own prayer life must have been affected by

        the Synagogue"



        2. that in the first century the Jewish -- and particularly the

        Galilean -- synagogue was not only a place of prayer but that it had an

        established liturgy.



        3. that the Amidah, the Kaddish, and the Evening Prayer as we have come

        to know them from 2nd century testimony about their shape and wording

        played prominent parts within it



        4. that the orientation of these prayers is eschatological



        5. that there are resemblances between the form and language of the

        Lord's Prayer on the one hand and that of the liturgical prayers of the

        synagogue and that these resemblances are too close to be mere coincidence.



        --

        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)

        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.

        Chicago, Illinois

        e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... If you ll read my message carefully, you ll note that contrary to what you seem to have read into it, the issue I am dealing with has nothing to do with
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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          John Lupia wrote:
          > Jeffrey
          >
          > The LP is transparently Jewish in nature and certainly needs no argument to demonstrate it.
          If you'll read my message carefully, you'll note that contrary to what
          you seem to have read into it, the issue I am dealing with has nothing
          to do with whether or not the nature of the LP is Jewish, let alone
          whether it reflects "Jewish" theology. It's whether the matrix of the
          form and the sentiment and the substance of the LP are certain prayers
          reputedly said to be statutory parts of the liturgy in 1st century
          synagogues.

          Jeffrey

          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
          1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...
        • John Lupia
          From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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            From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs. The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a
            single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these
            elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers. I am not clear on what it is you hope to accomplish outside of my comments? 


            Best regards,
            John


            John N. Lupia III

            New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

            God Bless Everyone

            --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
            From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
            Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
            To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 1:58 PM











            John Lupia wrote:

            > Jeffrey

            >

            > The LP is transparently Jewish in nature and certainly needs no argument to demonstrate it.

            If you'll read my message carefully, you'll note that contrary to what

            you seem to have read into it, the issue I am dealing with has nothing

            to do with whether or not the nature of the LP is Jewish, let alone

            whether it reflects "Jewish" theology. It's whether the matrix of the

            form and the sentiment and the substance of the LP are certain prayers

            reputedly said to be statutory parts of the liturgy in 1st century

            synagogues.



            Jeffrey



            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.

            Chicago, Illinois

            e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net





























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st century, on the shape of
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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              John Lupia wrote:
              > >From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs.

              I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct
              acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st
              century, on the shape of the pre 70 CE synagogal liturgy, on the
              meanings that such ideas as "hallowing the name" had within 1st century
              Palestinian Judaism, and on the form and aim of the Amidah and the
              Kadish etc. informs your understanding of what is "intuitively obvious".

              I'm also interested in knowing what evidence you can produce that Jesus
              intended the LP to be a prayer that would be said to him, let alone that
              it was ever viewed by any Patristic commentator (who seemingly would
              know that this was the case if it was) as such.anyone of within the
              Church fathers as such.

              > The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a
              > single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these
              > elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers.
              I take it you've not read Israel Abraham's of Joseph Heinemenn's review
              of this claim? In any case, what **actual** (not hypothetically
              postulated) pre-existing Jewish prayers in which these elements are
              indeed found can you point me to?

              Jeffrey

              --
              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
              1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
              Chicago, Illinois
              e-mail jgibson000@...
            • John Lupia
              Jeffery I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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                Jeffery

                I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions. I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.

                John N. Lupia III

                New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

                God Bless Everyone

                --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
                Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
                To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 2:46 PM











                John Lupia wrote:

                > >From what I had said this logically would follow that it is intuitively obvious without necessarily needing to see 1st century or thereabout Jewish prayer formulas. None would or should be surprised to find that there are very similar formulaic constructs.



                I wonder, John, if you could tell us what reading in, and direct

                acquaintance with, scholarly works on Jewish prayers in the 1st

                century, on the shape of the pre 70 CE synagogal liturgy, on the

                meanings that such ideas as "hallowing the name" had within 1st century

                Palestinian Judaism, and on the form and aim of the Amidah and the

                Kadish etc. informs your understanding of what is "intuitively obvious".



                I'm also interested in knowing what evidence you can produce that Jesus

                intended the LP to be a prayer that would be said to him, let alone that

                it was ever viewed by any Patristic commentator (who seemingly would

                know that this was the case if it was) as such.anyone of within the

                Church fathers as such.



                > The LP is compendious pulling together the essential elements in a

                > single concise prayer formula one would already expect to find these

                > elements in various preexisting Jewish prayers.

                I take it you've not read Israel Abraham's of Joseph Heinemenn's review

                of this claim? In any case, what **actual** (not hypothetically

                postulated) pre-existing Jewish prayers in which these elements are

                indeed found can you point me to?



                Jeffrey



                --

                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)

                1500 W. Pratt Blvd.

                Chicago, Illinois

                e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net





























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                ... Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and others who
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 4, 2008
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                  John Lupia wrote:
                  > Jeffery
                  >
                  > I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions.
                  Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are
                  not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and
                  others who say that the matrix of the LP is the liturgy of the
                  synagogue, as you would surely know if you had any direct acquaintance
                  with LP scholarship.
                  > I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.
                  >
                  So you won't back up YOUR claim that Jesus intended the LP to be
                  something that was to be addressed to him or that "The LP is
                  compendious pulling together" into "a single concise prayer formula" of
                  elements that can be found in "various preexisting" Jewish prayers by
                  naming these pre existing prayers and showing that what's in the LP can
                  be found in them?.

                  Why is that?

                  Jeffrey?

                  --
                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                  1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                  Chicago, Illinois
                  e-mail jgibson000@...
                • John Lupia
                  ... From: Jeffrey B. Gibson Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday,
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 5, 2008
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                    --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                    From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] the Synagogue as matrix of the LP
                    To: Synoptic@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 11:50 PM











                    John Lupia wrote:

                    > Jeffery

                    >

                    > I have no interest in this thesis since I neither see any fruit to be born of it nor see it contributing anything to be our better understanding about anything based upon the brief presentation you gave of your underlying assumptions.

                    Once again you misread what I wrote. The assumptions that I noted are

                    not MY assumptions. They belong to those (i.e, Jeremias and others)and

                    others who say that the matrix of the LP is the liturgy of the

                    synagogue, as you would surely know if you had any direct acquaintance

                    with LP scholarship.

                    > I was just pointing that out together with the implication of a merely human Jesus, who did not appear divine in what you wrote. But, if you have a point to make that is illuminating then make it in your paper, or if you wish to share it here then do it. I wish you the best success in all your endeavors.

                    >

                    So you won't back up YOUR claim that Jesus intended the LP to be

                    something that was to be addressed to him or that "The LP is

                    compendious pulling together" into "a single concise prayer formula" of

                    elements that can be found in "various preexisting" Jewish prayers by

                    naming these pre existing prayers and showing that what's in the LP can

                    be found in them?.



                    Why is that?



                    JeffreyI simply don't care.



                    -- John N. Lupia III

                    New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/

                    God Bless Everyone
                    .

























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