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Re: [Synoptic-L] Anyone reading the conference papers? I want to discuss age of reconstructed Mk

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  • Tim.Lewis
    In answer to Bruce s second question (what is meant by reconstructed gospels? ): yes, it refers to text critics best attempts at reproducing the alleged
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 11, 2008
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      In answer to Bruce's second question (what is meant by "reconstructed gospels?"): yes, it refers to text critics' best attempts at reproducing the alleged 'earliest' texts (i.e. autographs of Mark, Matthew & Luke) i.e. NA27(+).
      Cheers,
      Tim
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: E Bruce Brooks
      To: synoptic@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:07 PM
      Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Anyone reading the conference papers? I want to discuss age of reconstructed Mk


      To: Synoptic
      In Response To: Tim Lewis, Stephen Carlson
      On: Age of the "Reconstructed Gospels"
      From: Bruce

      STEPHEN: Peter Head has a paper on Textual Criticism and the Synoptic
      Problem, but I'm not sure he discusses the relative ages of the
      reconstructed texts of Mark, Matthew, and Luke.

      BRUCE: Hard to be sure, for two reasons:

      1. The paper is headed "ROUGH DRAFT (incomplete in the final sections)."
      Perhaps Peter, who I think is present on this list, could testify directly
      as to his own opinion?

      2. What is meant by "reconstructed gospels?" The text as in the latest
      Nestle-Aland?

      Bruce

      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • E Bruce Brooks
      To: Synoptic In Response To: Tim Lewis On: Reconstructed Gospels From: Bruce TIM: In answer to Bruce s second question (what is meant by reconstructed
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 11, 2008
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        To: Synoptic
        In Response To: Tim Lewis
        On: Reconstructed Gospels
        From: Bruce

        TIM: In answer to Bruce's second question (what is meant by "reconstructed
        gospels?"): yes, it refers to text critics' best attempts at reproducing the
        alleged 'earliest' texts (i.e. autographs of Mark, Matthew & Luke) i.e.
        NA27(+).

        BRUCE: OK. If I rephrase the question this way:

        "what is the relative age of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as we know them via
        Nestle-Aland 27?"

        am I asking the same question? Otherwise, I think one is simply asking for
        the publication date of NA27. I would proposed to answer it thus:

        "The order of the final compositional versions of these texts is Mark,
        Matthew, Luke."

        Whether right or wrong in fact, does this qualify, in form, as an answer to
        the question?

        Tim's original question was: "Isn't our reconstructed text of Mark later
        than that for Matthew and/or Luke?" I still find that perplexing. The signs
        in the text (as known via the most up-to-date text criticism) seem still to
        point to the conclusion that Mark is earlier than both Matthew and Luke.

        Peter Head (mentioned by Stephen Carlson in his reply, not by Tim) on p259
        of his book has this: "Our first and perhaps most obvious conclusion is that
        *the traditional Christological argument for Markan priority is fatally
        flawed and unable to support on its own the priority of Mark in relation to
        Matthew*" [his italics, my capitalization]. It might then seem that he
        claims to have refuted Markan Priority. Not at all. His second and third
        conclusions are:

        [2] "*the data we have surveyed provide little encouragement for modern
        defenders of the Griesbach hypothesis.*" [ditto]

        [3] "*the Christological argument, if transformed in such a way as to focus
        on the positive redactional interests of the Evangelists, provides powerful
        support for Markan priority.*" [ditto]

        Peter's Oxford paper (cited by Stephen) seems minus its conclusion, but much
        of what is extant does discuss the effect of text criticism on Synoptic
        theory, particularly the fact that certain text critical decisions affect
        the number of "minor agreements" to be dealt with by that theory. That is,
        some MA are referred, by some text critics, to subsequent scribal
        corruption, and not to the respective supposed originals (or better,
        archetypes). I don't get the impression that Peter thinks that the MA vanish
        as an issue, but we should let him speak for himself, presumably in the form
        of a more complete draft. (Perhaps he already has; I notice that Oxford has
        not freshened this portion of its web side since the middle of March).

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      • Tim.Lewis
        No, I was not suggesting that the Gospel of Mark postdated either Matthew or Luke. I was asking if, having better and/or earlier witnesses to the texts of
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 11, 2008
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          No, I was not suggesting that the Gospel of Mark postdated either Matthew or Luke. I was asking if, having better and/or earlier witnesses to the texts of Matthew and Luke, whether our reconstructed/critical text of Mark (NA27) more likely reflected a later text than what we have been able to do for Matthew & Luke. I.e. whether our reconstruction of Mark gets us, say, a reasonable mid-3rd century resemblance, while our recontructions of Mt & Lk push us half a century or so earlier? Has anyone made use of such an argument before? Perhaps this is more so a text critical question which would better suit a different E-list?
          Cheers,
          Tim


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: E Bruce Brooks
          To: synoptic@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 6:11 PM
          Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Anyone reading the conference papers? I want to discuss age of reconstructed Mk


          To: Synoptic
          In Response To: Tim Lewis
          On: Reconstructed Gospels
          From: Bruce

          TIM: In answer to Bruce's second question (what is meant by "reconstructed
          gospels?"): yes, it refers to text critics' best attempts at reproducing the
          alleged 'earliest' texts (i.e. autographs of Mark, Matthew & Luke) i.e.
          NA27(+).

          BRUCE: OK. If I rephrase the question this way:

          "what is the relative age of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as we know them via
          Nestle-Aland 27?"

          am I asking the same question? Otherwise, I think one is simply asking for
          the publication date of NA27. I would proposed to answer it thus:

          "The order of the final compositional versions of these texts is Mark,
          Matthew, Luke."

          Whether right or wrong in fact, does this qualify, in form, as an answer to
          the question?

          Tim's original question was: "Isn't our reconstructed text of Mark later
          than that for Matthew and/or Luke?" I still find that perplexing. The signs
          in the text (as known via the most up-to-date text criticism) seem still to
          point to the conclusion that Mark is earlier than both Matthew and Luke.

          Peter Head (mentioned by Stephen Carlson in his reply, not by Tim) on p259
          of his book has this: "Our first and perhaps most obvious conclusion is that
          *the traditional Christological argument for Markan priority is fatally
          flawed and unable to support on its own the priority of Mark in relation to
          Matthew*" [his italics, my capitalization]. It might then seem that he
          claims to have refuted Markan Priority. Not at all. His second and third
          conclusions are:

          [2] "*the data we have surveyed provide little encouragement for modern
          defenders of the Griesbach hypothesis.*" [ditto]

          [3] "*the Christological argument, if transformed in such a way as to focus
          on the positive redactional interests of the Evangelists, provides powerful
          support for Markan priority.*" [ditto]

          Peter's Oxford paper (cited by Stephen) seems minus its conclusion, but much
          of what is extant does discuss the effect of text criticism on Synoptic
          theory, particularly the fact that certain text critical decisions affect
          the number of "minor agreements" to be dealt with by that theory. That is,
          some MA are referred, by some text critics, to subsequent scribal
          corruption, and not to the respective supposed originals (or better,
          archetypes). I don't get the impression that Peter thinks that the MA vanish
          as an issue, but we should let him speak for himself, presumably in the form
          of a more complete draft. (Perhaps he already has; I notice that Oxford has
          not freshened this portion of its web side since the middle of March).

          Bruce

          E Bruce Brooks
          Warring States Project
          University of Massachusetts at Amherst





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Peter M. Head
          Here is the relevant portion of the slightly less rough draft. Basically on these terms I agree with Tim, but with the nuance that we treat all three somewhat
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 11, 2008
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            Here is the relevant portion of the slightly less
            rough draft. Basically on these terms I agree
            with Tim, but with the nuance that we treat all
            three somewhat individually. (And this has
            relevance to examining proposals for treating the
            minor agreements on the basis of non-harmonised
            readings in early versions of Mark, for example).

            I have already mentioned something
            of the new materials discovered and published in
            the first half of the twentieth century. In some
            ways, the century of the papyri has passed the
            synoptic problem by without making any
            particularly significant impact. While Matthew is
            well served in terms of the number of early
            fragments on papyrus from the late second and
            early third century (P104 = POxy 4404; P64+67;
            P103 = POxy 4403; P77 = POxy 2683&4405), not very
            much text is extant in these four witnesses.
            Indeed, judging by extant manuscripts up to the
            fourth century Matthew (along with John) was one
            of the most popular texts, extant in up to
            seventeen manuscripts, but most of these are only
            a portion of a single leaf, and in three cases
            (which includes P45) fragmentary portions of two
            leaves remain. Of course any evidence is
            important, and the extant fragments can tell us
            something about the relative popularity of the
            gospels (at least in Egypt), about the formats
            and contents of codices etc., but for the text of
            Matthew as a whole we remain dependent on the fourth century uncials.
            This is even more the case for Mark.
            One of the striking results from the last hundred
            years has been the lack of fulfilment of the
            looked for event which Turner mentioned – the
            hope that earlier manuscripts of Mark would
            emerge from the period before the major uncials.
            Indeed, with respect to the text of Mark our
            knowledge has barely moved in a hundred years. In
            the period before the uncials we have only a
            single manuscript: P45, a mid-third century
            codex, originally containing the four gospels and
            Acts, but now extant in only 155 verses, or
            approximately one quarter of Mark.[1] Even then
            this includes the maximal figure, since most of
            the Mark pages are considerably damaged. It is
            notable that if we take Oxyrhynchus material
            alone we have 13 copies of Matthew; 14 copies of
            John; 2 copies of Luke and none of Mark.[2]
            Unlike the other gospels then, we have no access
            to evidence of Mark before or outside of its
            inclusion into this (and then later) four gospel
            codices (unlike the other gospels). In fact the
            absence of Mark’s Gospel becomes a datum of
            significance which is both significant in its own
            right and also cries out for explanation
            (assuming, as I think we must, that this is not
            simply a random kind of variation).
            Only for Luke do we have early papyri with
            extensive amounts of text (esp. P75, but also P4
            and P45: 7 leaves; 5 mss in total for II-IV); and
            even more so for John (P66, P75: twenty mss in total from II-IV).
            Clearly it is a vital concern of NT textual
            criticism to study this early material (as well
            as the early patristic citations) in order to
            understand the transmission of the text back into
            the second century, but the fact remains that our
            knowledge of the text of Matthew and more
            especially Mark in the second - third centuries is extremely limited.


            [1] 4.36-40; 5.15-26; 5.38-6.3, 16-25, 36-50;
            7.3-15; 7.25-8.1, 10-26; 8.34-9.9, 18-31; 11.27-12.1, 5-8, 13-19, 24-28.
            [2] Matthew (13 copies), Luke (2 copies), John
            (14 copies), Acts (3 copies), Romans (4 copies),
            1 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1-2
            Thessalonians, Hebrews (3 copies), James (3
            copies), 1 John, Jude, and Revelation (3 copies).


            At 09:41 11/04/2008, Tim.Lewis wrote:
            >No, I was not suggesting that the Gospel of Mark
            >postdated either Matthew or Luke. I was asking
            >if, having better and/or earlier witnesses to
            >the texts of Matthew and Luke, whether our
            >reconstructed/critical text of Mark (NA27) more
            >likely reflected a later text than what we have
            >been able to do for Matthew & Luke. I.e. whether
            >our reconstruction of Mark gets us, say, a
            >reasonable mid-3rd century resemblance, while
            >our recontructions of Mt & Lk push us half a
            >century or so earlier? Has anyone made use of
            >such an argument before? Perhaps this is more so
            >a text critical question which would better suit a different E-list?
            >Cheers,
            >Tim
            >
            >
            >----- Original Message -----
            >From: E Bruce Brooks
            >To: synoptic@yahoogroups.com
            >Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 6:11 PM
            >Subject: Re: [Synoptic-L] Anyone reading the
            >conference papers? I want to discuss age of reconstructed Mk
            >
            >
            >To: Synoptic
            >In Response To: Tim Lewis
            >On: Reconstructed Gospels
            >From: Bruce
            >
            >TIM: In answer to Bruce's second question (what is meant by "reconstructed
            >gospels?"): yes, it refers to text critics' best attempts at reproducing the
            >alleged 'earliest' texts (i.e. autographs of Mark, Matthew & Luke) i.e.
            >NA27(+).
            >
            >BRUCE: OK. If I rephrase the question this way:
            >
            >"what is the relative age of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as we know them via
            >Nestle-Aland 27?"
            >
            >am I asking the same question? Otherwise, I think one is simply asking for
            >the publication date of NA27. I would proposed to answer it thus:
            >
            >"The order of the final compositional versions of these texts is Mark,
            >Matthew, Luke."
            >
            >Whether right or wrong in fact, does this qualify, in form, as an answer to
            >the question?
            >
            >Tim's original question was: "Isn't our reconstructed text of Mark later
            >than that for Matthew and/or Luke?" I still find that perplexing. The signs
            >in the text (as known via the most up-to-date text criticism) seem still to
            >point to the conclusion that Mark is earlier than both Matthew and Luke.
            >
            >Peter Head (mentioned by Stephen Carlson in his reply, not by Tim) on p259
            >of his book has this: "Our first and perhaps most obvious conclusion is that
            >*the traditional Christological argument for Markan priority is fatally
            >flawed and unable to support on its own the priority of Mark in relation to
            >Matthew*" [his italics, my capitalization]. It might then seem that he
            >claims to have refuted Markan Priority. Not at all. His second and third
            >conclusions are:
            >
            >[2] "*the data we have surveyed provide little encouragement for modern
            >defenders of the Griesbach hypothesis.*" [ditto]
            >
            >[3] "*the Christological argument, if transformed in such a way as to focus
            >on the positive redactional interests of the Evangelists, provides powerful
            >support for Markan priority.*" [ditto]
            >
            >Peter's Oxford paper (cited by Stephen) seems minus its conclusion, but much
            >of what is extant does discuss the effect of text criticism on Synoptic
            >theory, particularly the fact that certain text critical decisions affect
            >the number of "minor agreements" to be dealt with by that theory. That is,
            >some MA are referred, by some text critics, to subsequent scribal
            >corruption, and not to the respective supposed originals (or better,
            >archetypes). I don't get the impression that Peter thinks that the MA vanish
            >as an issue, but we should let him speak for himself, presumably in the form
            >of a more complete draft. (Perhaps he already has; I notice that Oxford has
            >not freshened this portion of its web side since the middle of March).
            >
            >Bruce
            >
            >E Bruce Brooks
            >Warring States Project
            >University of Massachusetts at Amherst
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >------------------------------------
            >
            >Synoptic-L homepage: http://NTGateway.com/synoptic-lYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            Peter M. Head, PhD
            Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
            Tyndale House
            36 Selwyn Gardens
            Cambridge CB3 9BA
            01223 566601
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