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4005Re: [Synoptic-L] Whoever is not with me is against me

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  • Ronald Price
    Feb 2, 2012
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      BRUCE: ..... I suggest that arguments from general features of form or
      style, in the absence of other factors, are generally risky.

      RON: I did include a second factor which has nothing to do with style.

      - - - - - - -

      BRUCE: There is no evidence that the early Jesus movement had anything to do
      with James the Brother.

      RON: Oh I think there is .....

      BRUCE: ..... That James later came
      aboard is undoubted, but nobody has ever said how that happened .....

      RON: ..... and the fact that the NT provides no clue as to the reason for
      the apparently sudden conversion of so important a character as James the
      brother of Jesus, should make the critical observer a tad suspicious. See
      also Painter, "Just James", p.270ff..

      - - - - - - -

      BRUCE: Jesus ignored food purity rules, he
      ignored Sabbath rules. He consorted with the unclean, with tax collectors
      and other people beyond the Pharisaic pale.

      RON: What I don't understand is why you take Mark's portrayal of Jesus in
      these story incidents as historical, when Mark had a clear motive to broaden
      the horizons of the Jesus movement. It is indisputable that the Jesus
      movement started inside Judaism and ended outside Judaism. This trajectory
      must have left traces in the synoptic gospels. And here in these Markan
      portrayals I see clear evidence of the first synoptic writer pushing the
      Jesus movement along this trajectory.

      BRUCE: The sense one gets from Mark is
      that Jesus was trying to widen the horizon of the potentially saved (that
      is, within Judaism), not narrow it.

      RON: Having reconstructed the collection of early aphorisms behind the
      synoptic gospels, it's clear to me that the Jesus movement initially thought
      the potentially saved to be "few" (Mt 7:14 and Mt 22:14). Mark's Jesus did
      indeed try to widen the horizon, but Mark was an evangelist not a historian,
      and this widening was entirely Mark's doing.

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      BRUCE: I cannot imagine a sharper contrast with what the
      earliest sources suggest about Jesus, .....

      RON: First you need to correctly identify the earliest sources. Yes, Mark
      was the first of the synoptic gospels, but behind all three was an earlier
      source which can be reconstructed, given the right approach.

      - - - - - - -

      BRUCE: In both Mt and Lk, the gathers/scatters bit is appended directly to
      the respective Beelzebul Accusations, Mt 12:22-29 and Lk 11:14-22. It has no
      obvious organic connection with that story; .....

      RON: True.

      BRUCE: ... it is a narrator's comment.

      RON: Not really. Rather Matthew thought it a suitable place to park one of
      the sayings attributed to Jesus, and Luke followed him in this.

      BRUCE: There is a Markan parallel to the Beelzebul Accusation (Mk 3:22-27),
      but none to the gathers/scatters verse.

      RON: Mark's version of said verse was parked elsewhere (Mk 9:40).

      - - - - - - -

      Ron Price,

      Derbyshire, UK


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