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Is there a combined new rules set w/V3.0, Field Marshall's Handbook, & Mega Map?

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  • yukonbeavis6
    Combined Rules Set Updated? Hi everyone. I just joined and tried to read through as many of the 2000+ messages as I could before posting. I apologize in
    Message 1 of 20 , May 9, 2006
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      Combined Rules Set Updated?

      Hi everyone. I just joined and tried to read through as many of the
      2000+ messages as I could before posting. I apologize in advance if
      this has been covered/beaten/explained to death.

      Has anyone considered or attempted to combine and update the major
      sources of rules? I would like to do this myself but I don't want
      to go through all the work if someone has already done this, by
      combining the following into one document (into a coherent, logical
      manner):

      1. Version 3.0 Rules to the Basic Game found at
      http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/supremv3.doc

      2. The Field Marshall's Handbook found at
      http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/fmarhb.doc

      3. Mega Map and Rules found at
      http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/mega%20map.doc

      4. Expansion documents

      5. Other information / erata / updates?

      If someone has already done this, then I would love a copy. If not,
      then perhaps I could create a draft document like this for group
      discussion. I reviewed the document written by Tom Wilcox called
      MegaSupremacy Variant Rules(86KB Zipped) located at
      http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/MegaA5a.zip . However, this
      rule package doesn't seem to address what I want to do. It looks
      like a very good rules set but it doesn't seem applicable to playing
      the medga map board game with some/all expansions. Also, it is
      written for a 7-player online internet game and doesn't seem to have
      options for the in-person baord game with 4,5, or 6 player rules.

      What do others think? Again, please excuse me if this has all been
      covered before.
      Thanks!
      Dave from Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
    • yukonbeavis6
      Oops - Now I see that there is a FILES section on this newsgroup with cool integrated rules. Sorry for posting before I saw that! But it looks like the last
      Message 2 of 20 , May 9, 2006
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        Oops - Now I see that there is a FILES section on this newsgroup
        with cool integrated rules. Sorry for posting before I saw that!
        But it looks like the last update is dated September 2003. What do
        people think of those rules? I am going to enjoy reading them and
        I'll post my comments after I read what other members think.

        --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, "yukonbeavis6" <yukonbeavis6@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Combined Rules Set Updated?
        >
        > Hi everyone. I just joined and tried to read through as many of
        the
        > 2000+ messages as I could before posting. I apologize in advance
        if
        > this has been covered/beaten/explained to death.
        >
        > Has anyone considered or attempted to combine and update the major
        > sources of rules? I would like to do this myself but I don't want
        > to go through all the work if someone has already done this, by
        > combining the following into one document (into a coherent,
        logical
        > manner):
        >
        > 1. Version 3.0 Rules to the Basic Game found at
        > http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/supremv3.doc
        >
        > 2. The Field Marshall's Handbook found at
        > http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/fmarhb.doc
        >
        > 3. Mega Map and Rules found at
        > http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/mega%20map.doc
        >
        > 4. Expansion documents
        >
        > 5. Other information / erata / updates?
        >
        > If someone has already done this, then I would love a copy. If
        not,
        > then perhaps I could create a draft document like this for group
        > discussion. I reviewed the document written by Tom Wilcox called
        > MegaSupremacy Variant Rules(86KB Zipped) located at
        > http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/MegaA5a.zip . However, this
        > rule package doesn't seem to address what I want to do. It looks
        > like a very good rules set but it doesn't seem applicable to
        playing
        > the medga map board game with some/all expansions. Also, it is
        > written for a 7-player online internet game and doesn't seem to
        have
        > options for the in-person baord game with 4,5, or 6 player rules.
        >
        > What do others think? Again, please excuse me if this has all
        been
        > covered before.
        > Thanks!
        > Dave from Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
        >
      • Scott David Orr
        ... The Mega Supremacy rulebook is basically the 3.0 rules plus nearly of all the expansion rules, where necessary rewritten for the 3.0 rules (with the except
        Message 3 of 20 , May 9, 2006
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          At 02:25 PM 5/9/2006, yukonbeavis6 wrote:
          >Combined Rules Set Updated?
          >
          >Hi everyone. I just joined and tried to read through as many of the
          >2000+ messages as I could before posting. I apologize in advance if
          >this has been covered/beaten/explained to death.
          >
          >Has anyone considered or attempted to combine and update the major
          >sources of rules? I would like to do this myself but I don't want
          >to go through all the work if someone has already done this, by
          >combining the following into one document (into a coherent, logical
          >manner):
          >
          >1. Version 3.0 Rules to the Basic Game found at
          >http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/supremv3.doc
          >
          >2. The Field Marshall's Handbook found at
          >http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/fmarhb.doc
          >
          >3. Mega Map and Rules found at
          >http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/mega%20map.doc
          >
          >4. Expansion documents
          >
          >5. Other information / erata / updates?


          The Mega Supremacy rulebook is basically the 3.0 rules plus nearly of
          all the expansion rules, where necessary rewritten for the 3.0 rules
          (with the except of one thing that slipped through--something in the
          L-star vs. boomer nuke table, I think). It doesn't include the Mega
          Map or Colonial Legions and Merchant Marine, both of which were
          released later. I'm not aware of any errata. There are also a
          handful of variant in the Field Marshall Handbook that didn't make it
          into Mega Supremacy rulebook but are still usable under the new rules.

          Scott Orr
        • yukonbeavis6
          Thanks! I actually just ordered the Mega Map expansion from TrollAndToad.com and I m anxiously awaiting it s arrival. Do you mean that the rules that came
          Message 4 of 20 , May 10, 2006
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            Thanks! I actually just ordered the Mega Map expansion from
            TrollAndToad.com and I'm anxiously awaiting it's arrival. Do you
            mean that the rules that came with this expansion essentially cover
            exverything now and are the most up-to-date or do I need something
            else?

            --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, Scott David Orr <sdorr@...> wrote:
            >
            > At 02:25 PM 5/9/2006, yukonbeavis6 wrote:
            > >Combined Rules Set Updated?
            > >
            > >Hi everyone. I just joined and tried to read through as many of
            the
            > >2000+ messages as I could before posting. I apologize in advance
            if
            > >this has been covered/beaten/explained to death.
            > >
            > >Has anyone considered or attempted to combine and update the major
            > >sources of rules? I would like to do this myself but I don't want
            > >to go through all the work if someone has already done this, by
            > >combining the following into one document (into a coherent, logical
            > >manner):
            > >
            > >1. Version 3.0 Rules to the Basic Game found at
            > >http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/supremv3.doc
            > >
            > >2. The Field Marshall's Handbook found at
            > >http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/fmarhb.doc
            > >
            > >3. Mega Map and Rules found at
            > >http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/mega%20map.doc
            > >
            > >4. Expansion documents
            > >
            > >5. Other information / erata / updates?
            >
            >
            > The Mega Supremacy rulebook is basically the 3.0 rules plus nearly
            of
            > all the expansion rules, where necessary rewritten for the 3.0
            rules
            > (with the except of one thing that slipped through--something in
            the
            > L-star vs. boomer nuke table, I think). It doesn't include the
            Mega
            > Map or Colonial Legions and Merchant Marine, both of which were
            > released later. I'm not aware of any errata. There are also a
            > handful of variant in the Field Marshall Handbook that didn't make
            it
            > into Mega Supremacy rulebook but are still usable under the new
            rules.
            >
            > Scott Orr
            >
          • Scott David Orr
            ... No, the Mega Supremacy rules and the Mega Map are two different items--as I said, the Mega Map is one of two things that isn t included in the Mega
            Message 5 of 20 , May 10, 2006
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              At 10:13 PM 5/10/2006, yukonbeavis6 wrote:
              >Thanks! I actually just ordered the Mega Map expansion from
              >TrollAndToad.com and I'm anxiously awaiting it's arrival. Do you
              >mean that the rules that came with this expansion essentially cover
              >exverything now and are the most up-to-date or do I need something
              >else?


              No, the Mega Supremacy rules and the Mega Map are two different
              items--as I said, the Mega Map is one of two things that isn't
              included in the Mega Supremacy rules (the other is the hard-to-find
              Colonial Legions and Merchant Marine).

              Scott Orr
            • yukonbeavis6
              Ok, thanks again for your replies & help. I ordered the big rulebook too after I read your post (I d also ordered the mega map). So, if I use the MEGA
              Message 6 of 20 , May 10, 2006
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                Ok, thanks again for your replies & help. I ordered the big rulebook
                too after I read your post (I'd also ordered the mega map). So, if I
                use the MEGA SUPREMACY rulebook (186 pages-1991) with Mega Map and
                that smaller set of rules, then I have to combine them myself? And if
                so, is there an electronic copy of the Mega Supremacy rulebook? I
                think I found the elctronic copy of the Mega Map rulebook at
                http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/mega%20map.doc It would be nice
                to combine these electronically and then add/subtract the optional
                rules.

                It appears that the primary difference with the Mega Map is with more
                cities and territories in the mega map that affect targeting with
                nukes. Are there other major differences? Does it make the game a
                lot better? I played the original game about 10 years ago and am
                really looking forward to playing again!

                The other issue I'm struggling with is the Simultaneous Random Play
                and Blind Bet rules. These rules seem to have the fair effect of
                preventing unfair market manipulation, espcially how you choose to bid
                on selling each of the three resources one at a time. However, am I
                reading it right that after you use up your 6 betting tiles, you can't
                participate in anymore more of the stages for that turn? For example,
                if I used up my 6 cubes betting on turn order for stages 3 and 4, I
                can not do stage 6 Build at all? That would seem to really slow down
                the game. Sorry if I'm missing something. Alternatively, is there a
                better system to make turn order each stage fairer?

                Lastly, I have read or glanced through most of the files posted here
                and at Maximillian's cool site but honestly, I'm more confused and a
                bit overwhelmed. I hope it all becomes clearer after I setup, study
                the mega supremacy and mega map rules and playtest with some friends I
                can talk into it.

                Thanks again!





                --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, Scott David Orr <sdorr@...> wrote:
                >
                > At 10:13 PM 5/10/2006, yukonbeavis6 wrote:
                > >Thanks! I actually just ordered the Mega Map expansion from
                > >TrollAndToad.com and I'm anxiously awaiting it's arrival. Do you
                > >mean that the rules that came with this expansion essentially cover
                > >exverything now and are the most up-to-date or do I need something
                > >else?
                >
                >
                > No, the Mega Supremacy rules and the Mega Map are two different
                > items--as I said, the Mega Map is one of two things that isn't
                > included in the Mega Supremacy rules (the other is the hard-to-find
                > Colonial Legions and Merchant Marine).
                >
                > Scott Orr
                >
              • jlhilal
                ... The term MegaSupremacy (MS) refers to the full size, glue-bound, soft-cover, blue rulebook fully titled The Commander-in-Chief s Rule Book to Mega
                Message 7 of 20 , May 11, 2006
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                  --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, "yukonbeavis6" <yukonbeavis6@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks! I actually just ordered the Mega Map expansion from
                  > TrollAndToad.com and I'm anxiously awaiting it's arrival. Do you
                  > mean that the rules that came with this expansion essentially cover
                  > exverything now and are the most up-to-date or do I need something
                  > else?
                  >

                  The term "MegaSupremacy" (MS) refers to the full size, glue-bound,
                  soft-cover, blue rulebook fully titled "The Commander-in-Chief's Rule
                  Book to Mega Supremacy". This is different from the half-page sized,
                  staple-bound, yellow, soft-covered "Field Marshal's Handbook" (FMH).
                  It is also different from the "MegaMap".

                  The MegaSupremacy rulebook is a compilation of all the rules and
                  expansions, including a number of changes (especially in the R&D of
                  High Tech Edge). It includes the rules from all of the expansions
                  released before it was printed (but not any game pieces or cards).
                  The Mega-Map expansion (MM) and the "Colonial Legions and Merchant
                  Marine" expansion (CLMM) were released AFTER MegaSupremacy, and thus
                  their rules are not included.

                  The FMH is still useful because a number of optional/variant rules
                  weren't included in MS. A prime example of this is the "Random Supply
                  and Demand" rules which help with the market. I have an adaption of
                  this posted in the folder "Jay's Files" in the files section.

                  J
                • Scott David Orr
                  ... For the most part, the Mega Supremacy rule book just reproduces the High Tech Edge rules--but it s important to note that two versions of each set of High
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 11, 2006
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                    At 04:15 PM 5/11/2006, jlhilal wrote:

                    >The MegaSupremacy rulebook is a compilation of all the rules and
                    >expansions, including a number of changes (especially in the R&D of
                    >High Tech Edge).


                    For the most part, the Mega Supremacy rule book just reproduces the
                    High Tech Edge rules--but it's important to note that two versions of
                    each set of High Tech Edge rules were published, and the Mega
                    Supremacy book duplicates the second versions.

                    Scott Orr
                  • jlhilal
                    ... I have two copies of each of the HTE expansions, and all four have the crappy draw single top card rules. I never realized that the rules published in
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 12, 2006
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                      --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, Scott David Orr <sdorr@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > At 04:15 PM 5/11/2006, jlhilal wrote:
                      >
                      > >The MegaSupremacy rulebook is a compilation of all the rules and
                      > >expansions, including a number of changes (especially in the R&D of
                      > >High Tech Edge).
                      >
                      >
                      > For the most part, the Mega Supremacy rule book just reproduces the
                      > High Tech Edge rules--but it's important to note that two versions of
                      > each set of High Tech Edge rules were published, and the Mega
                      > Supremacy book duplicates the second versions.
                      >

                      I have two copies of each of the HTE expansions, and all four have the
                      crappy "draw single top card" rules. I never realized that the rules
                      published in MS had been part of a revision of the HTE sets. <shrug>

                      J
                    • Scott David Orr
                      ... I just went back and checked my copies, and it looks like we re both half right: my Conventional Forces is the original version, where you have one Army
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 12, 2006
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                        At 06:03 PM 5/12/2006, jlhilal wrote:
                        >--- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, Scott David Orr <sdorr@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > At 04:15 PM 5/11/2006, jlhilal wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >The MegaSupremacy rulebook is a compilation of all the rules and
                        > > >expansions, including a number of changes (especially in the R&D of
                        > > >High Tech Edge).
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > For the most part, the Mega Supremacy rule book just reproduces the
                        > > High Tech Edge rules--but it's important to note that two versions of
                        > > each set of High Tech Edge rules were published, and the Mega
                        > > Supremacy book duplicates the second versions.
                        > >
                        >
                        >I have two copies of each of the HTE expansions, and all four have the
                        >crappy "draw single top card" rules. I never realized that the rules
                        >published in MS had been part of a revision of the HTE sets. <shrug>


                        I just went back and checked my copies, and it looks like we're both
                        half right: my Conventional Forces is the original version, where
                        you have one Army deck and one Navy deck and you just draw the top
                        card in one deck or the other, and get whatever tech level that is
                        (you can go up on the next turn if you happen to draw a higher
                        one). As you say, this rule is just too bizarre to be believed,
                        since some players will jump to the highest tech level immediately,
                        for a minimal investment.

                        My copy of Strategic Forces is an updated version, but it's still
                        pretty bad: you shuffle all the Strategic Forces cards together and
                        draw until you get one of the type you were researching for. At that
                        point, you can keep going in hopes of getting a higher level if you
                        want. It's more expensive, but you can still jump immediately to the
                        highest level.

                        Scott Orr
                      • Scott David Orr
                        ... That I don t know. ... One other big difference is that there are no dark blue oceans adjacent to land territories--in the original rules, you could launch
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 12, 2006
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                          At 12:48 AM 5/11/2006, yukonbeavis6 wrote:
                          >Ok, thanks again for your replies & help. I ordered the big rulebook
                          >too after I read your post (I'd also ordered the mega map). So, if I
                          >use the MEGA SUPREMACY rulebook (186 pages-1991) with Mega Map and
                          >that smaller set of rules, then I have to combine them myself? And if
                          >so, is there an electronic copy of the Mega Supremacy rulebook? I
                          >think I found the elctronic copy of the Mega Map rulebook at
                          >http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/mega%20map.doc It would be nice
                          >to combine these electronically and then add/subtract the optional
                          >rules.


                          That I don't know.


                          >It appears that the primary difference with the Mega Map is with more
                          >cities and territories in the mega map that affect targeting with
                          >nukes. Are there other major differences? Does it make the game a
                          >lot better? I played the original game about 10 years ago and am
                          >really looking forward to playing again!


                          One other big difference is that there are no dark blue oceans
                          adjacent to land territories--in the original rules, you could launch
                          an amphibious invasion at these locations, which made doing so much
                          easier (except that you couldn't retreat back to your ships if it didn't work).



                          >The other issue I'm struggling with is the Simultaneous Random Play
                          >and Blind Bet rules. These rules seem to have the fair effect of
                          >preventing unfair market manipulation...


                          To the contrary, it encourages manipulation--but you have to decide
                          how much it's worth to you, and it's certainly not unfair. :)


                          >...espcially how you choose to bid on selling each of the three
                          >resources one at a time.

                          Are the Blind Bet rules in the FHM? I know I've seen them, and I was
                          thinking they were in Mega Supremacy, but they don't seem to be. Is
                          Simultaneous Random Play part of Blind Bet, or something separate?

                          As I recall the rule, you bid for the whole Sell Stage (or another
                          other stage), to sell all three goods. However, under the Mega
                          Supremacy rules (which were not yet contemplated when the FHM was
                          written), once you enter the Sell Stage, you can only sell one good
                          before passing play to the next person.


                          >However, am I
                          >reading it right that after you use up your 6 betting tiles, you can't
                          >participate in anymore more of the stages for that turn? For example,
                          >if I used up my 6 cubes betting on turn order for stages 3 and 4, I
                          >can not do stage 6 Build at all? That would seem to really slow down
                          >the game. Sorry if I'm missing something. Alternatively, is there a
                          >better system to make turn order each stage fairer?


                          You can only play three stages each turn anyway, but yes, if you use
                          up all your cubes on one or two stages, you can't play later
                          stages. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone do that, though.

                          Scott Orr
                        • yukonbeavis6
                          That is all totally helpful. Thank you guys for kindly anwering my questions. What a cool newsgroup. I think I may have been over-complicating and confusing
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 12, 2006
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                            That is all totally helpful. Thank you guys for kindly anwering my
                            questions. What a cool newsgroup.

                            I think I may have been over-complicating and confusing the whole
                            Simultaneous Random Play and Blind Bet rules. I'll read them more
                            carefully when I'm setup. It does seem to be a fairer and better
                            method than the original rules we played with strict turns and order
                            each stage and round.

                            Also, I can't wait to get my MEGA MAP and MEGA SUPREMACY rulebook. I
                            plan on playing with Fortuna and Warlords and Pirates. I also have
                            the tanks expansion but have read that it imbalances things so I'm
                            goig try without it. I also want to get that new Mega Map mounted on
                            a board at an art store and maybe coated or laminated. It sure is
                            fun reading all this stuff again. Hopefully I can sell at least
                            three friends on the idea of spending the better part of a weekend on
                            playing this! THANK YOU!!!
                            Dave Christie, Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada

                            --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, Scott David Orr <sdorr@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > At 12:48 AM 5/11/2006, yukonbeavis6 wrote:
                            > >Ok, thanks again for your replies & help. I ordered the big
                            rulebook
                            > >too after I read your post (I'd also ordered the mega map). So, if
                            I
                            > >use the MEGA SUPREMACY rulebook (186 pages-1991) with Mega Map and
                            > >that smaller set of rules, then I have to combine them myself?
                            And if
                            > >so, is there an electronic copy of the Mega Supremacy rulebook? I
                            > >think I found the elctronic copy of the Mega Map rulebook at
                            > >http://www.bachleda.org/games/files2/mega%20map.doc It would be
                            nice
                            > >to combine these electronically and then add/subtract the optional
                            > >rules.
                            >
                            >
                            > That I don't know.
                            >
                            >
                            > >It appears that the primary difference with the Mega Map is with
                            more
                            > >cities and territories in the mega map that affect targeting with
                            > >nukes. Are there other major differences? Does it make the game a
                            > >lot better? I played the original game about 10 years ago and am
                            > >really looking forward to playing again!
                            >
                            >
                            > One other big difference is that there are no dark blue oceans
                            > adjacent to land territories--in the original rules, you could
                            launch
                            > an amphibious invasion at these locations, which made doing so much
                            > easier (except that you couldn't retreat back to your ships if it
                            didn't work).
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >The other issue I'm struggling with is the Simultaneous Random Play
                            > >and Blind Bet rules. These rules seem to have the fair effect of
                            > >preventing unfair market manipulation...
                            >
                            >
                            > To the contrary, it encourages manipulation--but you have to decide
                            > how much it's worth to you, and it's certainly not unfair. :)
                            >
                            >
                            > >...espcially how you choose to bid on selling each of the three
                            > >resources one at a time.
                            >
                            > Are the Blind Bet rules in the FHM? I know I've seen them, and I
                            was
                            > thinking they were in Mega Supremacy, but they don't seem to be.
                            Is
                            > Simultaneous Random Play part of Blind Bet, or something separate?
                            >
                            > As I recall the rule, you bid for the whole Sell Stage (or another
                            > other stage), to sell all three goods. However, under the Mega
                            > Supremacy rules (which were not yet contemplated when the FHM was
                            > written), once you enter the Sell Stage, you can only sell one good
                            > before passing play to the next person.
                            >
                            >
                            > >However, am I
                            > >reading it right that after you use up your 6 betting tiles, you
                            can't
                            > >participate in anymore more of the stages for that turn? For
                            example,
                            > >if I used up my 6 cubes betting on turn order for stages 3 and 4, I
                            > >can not do stage 6 Build at all? That would seem to really slow
                            down
                            > >the game. Sorry if I'm missing something. Alternatively, is there
                            a
                            > >better system to make turn order each stage fairer?
                            >
                            >
                            > You can only play three stages each turn anyway, but yes, if you
                            use
                            > up all your cubes on one or two stages, you can't play later
                            > stages. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone do that, though.
                            >
                            > Scott Orr
                            >
                          • Scott David Orr
                            ... Ohhhhhh...the Simultaneous Random Play is just letting everyone do a stage rather than having each person play a whole turn, and picking who goes first in
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 13, 2006
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                              At 01:55 AM 5/13/2006, yukonbeavis6 wrote:
                              >That is all totally helpful. Thank you guys for kindly anwering my
                              >questions. What a cool newsgroup.
                              >
                              >I think I may have been over-complicating and confusing the whole
                              >Simultaneous Random Play and Blind Bet rules. I'll read them more
                              >carefully when I'm setup. It does seem to be a fairer and better
                              >method than the original rules we played with strict turns and order
                              >each stage and round.


                              Ohhhhhh...the Simultaneous Random Play is just letting everyone do a
                              stage rather than having each person play a whole turn, and picking
                              who goes first in each stage randomly, isn't it? That's now the
                              standard way the game is played, not an optional rule (it may even
                              have been the standard in the Version 2 rules). I've never even
                              played a game the original way, and frankly I'd forgotten it existed. :)


                              >Also, I can't wait to get my MEGA MAP and MEGA SUPREMACY rulebook. I
                              >plan on playing with Fortuna and Warlords and Pirates. I also have
                              >the tanks expansion but have read that it imbalances things so I'm
                              >goig try without it. I also want to get that new Mega Map mounted on
                              >a board at an art store and maybe coated or laminated. It sure is
                              >fun reading all this stuff again. Hopefully I can sell at least
                              >three friends on the idea of spending the better part of a weekend on
                              >playing this! THANK YOU!!!


                              You read that Tanks unbalances things? That's odd. I usually play
                              with it, because the rules are simple and the tanks are cute, but it
                              has a minimal effect on game play (if you had a full range of
                              miniatures to choose from, as was originally intended, things would
                              get complicated, though...). Yes, things get screwy if you have
                              combats between tanks and a force of two or fewer basic armies, but
                              tanks work fine if the opponent has three armies or more.

                              Warlords and Pirates is one of the two expansions I always play with,
                              because it keeps you from seizing the neutrals for practically no
                              cost, and makes obtaining resources truly challenging. The other one
                              I always play with is Resource Deck Two, with a random shuffle, so
                              that you can never be sure where the resources are (in the original
                              game, it was a smart move to occupy Arabia on the first turn--it was
                              practically costless, and you were guaranteed that oil would be found
                              there eventually).

                              The expansions that don't really work are the High Tech Edge
                              expansions: the rules for transfering tech to industry are bad
                              enough, making control of the neutrals pointless later in the game,
                              but the real problem is that you can sell unlimited amounts of
                              technology and weapons to the neutrals, meaning that money becomes,
                              in essence, "free". Unfortunately, the Mega Map (and especially the
                              new nuclear war rules) doesn't really work without the High Tech Edge
                              expansions, and even without the Mega Map, conventional warfare
                              becomes difficult with large forces or at long distances, because of
                              the 12-resource limit on your supply track, and therefore the High
                              Tech Edge would be very useful. I'm never really been sure how to
                              resolve this quandary, other than outright banning sales to neutrals.

                              Scott Orr
                            • yukonbeavis6
                              Excellent advice, Scott. Based on what you wrote, it seems like the best idea might be to use both the High Tech Edge expansions with the Mega Map, but ban
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 13, 2006
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                                Excellent advice, Scott. Based on what you wrote, it seems like the
                                best idea might be to use both the High Tech Edge expansions with the
                                Mega Map, but ban all sales to Warlords. I suppose alternatively,
                                you could make sales possible but have a die roll requirement to see
                                if the sale went through?

                                What do you think of this game setup?

                                Supremacy Main Set
                                Mega-Map
                                Resource Decks One, Two, and Three
                                Warlords and Pirates of the Neutral Zones
                                High-Tech Edge for Conventional Forces
                                High-Tech Edge for Strategic Forces
                                Fortuna
                                Tanks
                                Unconventional Forces

                                Using all of these Rules:
                                Mega-Supremacy Rules
                                Mega-Map Rules
                                The Field Marshall's Handbook to Supremacy

                                and either banning or limiting sales of tech to Warlords?

                                Dave


                                --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, Scott David Orr <sdorr@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > At 01:55 AM 5/13/2006, yukonbeavis6 wrote:
                                > >That is all totally helpful. Thank you guys for kindly anwering my
                                > >questions. What a cool newsgroup.
                                > >
                                > >I think I may have been over-complicating and confusing the whole
                                > >Simultaneous Random Play and Blind Bet rules. I'll read them more
                                > >carefully when I'm setup. It does seem to be a fairer and better
                                > >method than the original rules we played with strict turns and
                                order
                                > >each stage and round.
                                >
                                >
                                > Ohhhhhh...the Simultaneous Random Play is just letting everyone do
                                a
                                > stage rather than having each person play a whole turn, and picking
                                > who goes first in each stage randomly, isn't it? That's now the
                                > standard way the game is played, not an optional rule (it may even
                                > have been the standard in the Version 2 rules). I've never even
                                > played a game the original way, and frankly I'd forgotten it
                                existed. :)
                                >
                                >
                                > >Also, I can't wait to get my MEGA MAP and MEGA SUPREMACY
                                rulebook. I
                                > >plan on playing with Fortuna and Warlords and Pirates. I also have
                                > >the tanks expansion but have read that it imbalances things so I'm
                                > >goig try without it. I also want to get that new Mega Map mounted
                                on
                                > >a board at an art store and maybe coated or laminated. It sure is
                                > >fun reading all this stuff again. Hopefully I can sell at least
                                > >three friends on the idea of spending the better part of a weekend
                                on
                                > >playing this! THANK YOU!!!
                                >
                                >
                                > You read that Tanks unbalances things? That's odd. I usually play
                                > with it, because the rules are simple and the tanks are cute, but
                                it
                                > has a minimal effect on game play (if you had a full range of
                                > miniatures to choose from, as was originally intended, things would
                                > get complicated, though...). Yes, things get screwy if you have
                                > combats between tanks and a force of two or fewer basic armies, but
                                > tanks work fine if the opponent has three armies or more.
                                >
                                > Warlords and Pirates is one of the two expansions I always play
                                with,
                                > because it keeps you from seizing the neutrals for practically no
                                > cost, and makes obtaining resources truly challenging. The other
                                one
                                > I always play with is Resource Deck Two, with a random shuffle, so
                                > that you can never be sure where the resources are (in the original
                                > game, it was a smart move to occupy Arabia on the first turn--it
                                was
                                > practically costless, and you were guaranteed that oil would be
                                found
                                > there eventually).
                                >
                                > The expansions that don't really work are the High Tech Edge
                                > expansions: the rules for transfering tech to industry are bad
                                > enough, making control of the neutrals pointless later in the game,
                                > but the real problem is that you can sell unlimited amounts of
                                > technology and weapons to the neutrals, meaning that money becomes,
                                > in essence, "free". Unfortunately, the Mega Map (and especially
                                the
                                > new nuclear war rules) doesn't really work without the High Tech
                                Edge
                                > expansions, and even without the Mega Map, conventional warfare
                                > becomes difficult with large forces or at long distances, because
                                of
                                > the 12-resource limit on your supply track, and therefore the High
                                > Tech Edge would be very useful. I'm never really been sure how to
                                > resolve this quandary, other than outright banning sales to
                                neutrals.
                                >
                                > Scott Orr
                                >
                              • Scott David Orr
                                ... That sounds fine. One thing I forgot to mention is that if you use High Tech, you need to use both sets--otherwise it s affordable for one person to get
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 14, 2006
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                                  At 05:21 PM 5/13/2006, yukonbeavis6 wrote:
                                  >Excellent advice, Scott. Based on what you wrote, it seems like the
                                  >best idea might be to use both the High Tech Edge expansions with the
                                  >Mega Map, but ban all sales to Warlords. I suppose alternatively,
                                  >you could make sales possible but have a die roll requirement to see
                                  >if the sale went through?
                                  >
                                  >What do you think of this game setup?
                                  >
                                  >Supremacy Main Set
                                  >Mega-Map
                                  >Resource Decks One, Two, and Three
                                  >Warlords and Pirates of the Neutral Zones
                                  >High-Tech Edge for Conventional Forces
                                  >High-Tech Edge for Strategic Forces
                                  >Fortuna
                                  >Tanks
                                  >Unconventional Forces
                                  >
                                  >Using all of these Rules:
                                  >Mega-Supremacy Rules
                                  >Mega-Map Rules
                                  >The Field Marshall's Handbook to Supremacy
                                  >
                                  >and either banning or limiting sales of tech to Warlords?


                                  That sounds fine. One thing I forgot to mention is that if you use
                                  High Tech, you need to use both sets--otherwise it's affordable for
                                  one person to get ahead in all types of tech, and ones he's ahead,
                                  there's no way to catch him.

                                  Scott Orr
                                • jlhilal
                                  ... Just for clairification, the Megasupremacy book has a third set of rules for HT cards where there is one deck for each technology type and you turn over
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 17, 2006
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                                    --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, Scott David Orr <sdorr@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > At 06:03 PM 5/12/2006, jlhilal wrote:
                                    > >I have two copies of each of the HTE expansions, and all four have
                                    > > the crappy "draw single top card" rules. I never realized that
                                    > > the rules published in MS had been part of a revision of the HTE
                                    > > sets. <shrug>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I just went back and checked my copies, and it looks like we're both
                                    > half right: my Conventional Forces is the original version, where
                                    > you have one Army deck and one Navy deck and you just draw the top
                                    > card in one deck or the other, and get whatever tech level that is
                                    > (you can go up on the next turn if you happen to draw a higher
                                    > one). As you say, this rule is just too bizarre to be believed,
                                    > since some players will jump to the highest tech level immediately,
                                    > for a minimal investment.
                                    >
                                    > My copy of Strategic Forces is an updated version, but it's still
                                    > pretty bad: you shuffle all the Strategic Forces cards together and
                                    > draw until you get one of the type you were researching for. At
                                    > that point, you can keep going in hopes of getting a higher level if
                                    > you want. It's more expensive, but you can still jump immediately
                                    > to the highest level.
                                    >

                                    Just for clairification, the Megasupremacy book has a third set of
                                    rules for HT cards where there is one deck for each technology type
                                    and you turn over cards one at a time until you get a card of both the
                                    type and next higher level to what you already have, so that you only
                                    go up one level at a time. Thats what's in my copy anyway.

                                    J
                                  • jlhilal
                                    ... ... I think Scott answered pretty well, but there are some points that I would add. 1) the Megamap rules change the way that you receive income from
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 17, 2006
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                                      --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, "yukonbeavis6" <yukonbeavis6@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      <snip>
                                      >
                                      > It appears that the primary difference with the Mega Map is with
                                      > more cities and territories in the mega map that affect targeting
                                      > with nukes. Are there other major differences? Does it make the
                                      > game a lot better? I played the original game about 10 years ago
                                      > and am really looking forward to playing again!
                                      >

                                      I think Scott answered pretty well, but there are some points that I
                                      would add.

                                      1) the Megamap rules change the way that you receive income from your
                                      territories. The amount of income is related to the number and types
                                      of cities under your control. Thus some territories pay you more
                                      because they have more revenue generating cities than others.

                                      2) religious centers affect the defensive capability of territories by
                                      adding +1 edge point for each religious center. This means that
                                      certain territories can be difficult and/or expensive to take. Take a
                                      good look at India. There are 6 religious centers in one territory.
                                      that means that the minimum roll for neutral forces under attack in
                                      india is 2+6=8, guaranteeing a kill on a tank every turn, or a 35/36
                                      chance to kill at least 3 basic armies.

                                      3) not only do cities change the targeting of nukes, they also change
                                      the way nuclear winter can end the game. In the basic game, one nuke
                                      destroys one territory, and 12-18 destroyed territories ends the game.
                                      The MM rules change this to requiring three cities destroyed in a
                                      territory to destroy the territory, but continues to count territories
                                      to determine nuclear winter. This means that a minimum of 36 nukes
                                      are required to end the game, and only if they all land in just the
                                      right way. This greatly reduces the possibility of the sore-loser or
                                      bored player who launches his nukes to end the game.

                                      A slight variant that increases this effect is to change the "3-city"
                                      threshold to be "all the cities in the territory", as this further
                                      increases the number of nukes needed.

                                      4) With the "nukes aimed at cities" rule, it is now possible to have a
                                      resource card in a territory that has suffered damage from nukes. The
                                      rules address this by reducing the output of resource cards in
                                      territories that have some nuked cities but are not yet destroyed.


                                      > The other issue I'm struggling with is the Simultaneous Random Play
                                      > and Blind Bet rules. These rules seem to have the fair effect of
                                      > preventing unfair market manipulation, espcially how you choose to
                                      > bid on selling each of the three resources one at a time. However,
                                      > am I reading it right that after you use up your 6 betting tiles,
                                      > you can't participate in anymore more of the stages for that turn?
                                      > For example, if I used up my 6 cubes betting on turn order for
                                      > stages 3 and 4, I can not do stage 6 Build at all? That would seem
                                      > to really slow down the game.

                                      If you are using the FMH 6-tile variant, then that's right.

                                      It depends how you use the rules. Not all of the varriants from FMH
                                      made it into MS, especially where there were several options.
                                      Conviently for the group I played with, the combination of FMH
                                      variants that we were using is what made it into MS.

                                      MS uses the chose three stages rules, not the six piece bidding variant.
                                      Player sequence within a particular stage is determined by die roll.
                                      Each player performs one action in player order. Then the first
                                      player can perform a second action, etc.

                                      This dampens the market manipulation effects by spreading out the
                                      actions of each player, so one player does not get first crack at all
                                      three resources. It also introduces a random element into attack
                                      initiative.


                                      > Sorry if I'm missing something. Alternatively, is there a
                                      > better system to make turn order each stage fairer?
                                      >

                                      If you are using the six-piece bidding variant, you can still use the
                                      die-roll for player order rule, but give each player one die for each
                                      piece they bid, and the player can use the highest single die score
                                      that he rolls. This means that bidding several piece on the same
                                      stage gives an increased chance of going first, but there is still a
                                      chance that the player who bid one piece rolls best on his single die.


                                      > Lastly, I have read or glanced through most of the files posted here
                                      > and at Maximillian's cool site but honestly, I'm more confused and a
                                      > bit overwhelmed. I hope it all becomes clearer after I setup, study
                                      > the mega supremacy and mega map rules and playtest with some friends
                                      > I can talk into it.
                                      >

                                      Unfortunately, most of the rules in the files section are not designed
                                      to work together, at least between different rules authers. I would
                                      suggest not adding any of them until you have played a few games with
                                      just the published rules and get a feel for where the strengths and
                                      weaknesses are in those rules. Then you can cherry-pick through the
                                      variants to find patches to fix problems in the published rules and
                                      add new rules for things not included in the published rules at all.
                                      You might also find a rule idea that you can change to get something
                                      that better suits your group. Part of this is a matter of the style
                                      of play of your group. Small differences in the way you play and the
                                      personalities at the table can have a big impact on how the game goes.
                                      Major problems for one group may never come up in another group or
                                      vice versa for many different reasons.


                                      J
                                    • jlhilal
                                      ... Megasupremacy partly addressed the problem of sales to the neutrals, but a lot of players miss the change. In the Build stage, the rules for Arms Bazaar
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 17, 2006
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                                        --- In Supremacy@yahoogroups.com, "yukonbeavis6" <yukonbeavis6@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Excellent advice, Scott. Based on what you wrote, it seems like the
                                        > best idea might be to use both the High Tech Edge expansions with the
                                        > Mega Map, but ban all sales to Warlords. I suppose alternatively,
                                        > you could make sales possible but have a die roll requirement to see
                                        > if the sale went through?
                                        >
                                        > What do you think of this game setup?
                                        >
                                        > Supremacy Main Set
                                        > Mega-Map
                                        > Resource Decks One, Two, and Three
                                        > Warlords and Pirates of the Neutral Zones
                                        > High-Tech Edge for Conventional Forces
                                        > High-Tech Edge for Strategic Forces
                                        > Fortuna
                                        > Tanks
                                        > Unconventional Forces
                                        >
                                        > Using all of these Rules:
                                        > Mega-Supremacy Rules
                                        > Mega-Map Rules
                                        > The Field Marshall's Handbook to Supremacy
                                        >
                                        > and either banning or limiting sales of tech to Warlords?
                                        >
                                        > Dave

                                        Megasupremacy partly addressed the problem of sales to the neutrals,
                                        but a lot of players miss the change. In the Build stage, the rules
                                        for "Arms Bazaar" limit each player to three sales to any neutal of 1
                                        item per sale, grand total of three items sold per game turn.

                                        I am probably the one who wrote that tanks are unbalancing in a
                                        previous post. I don't think that it is enough to ruin the game but
                                        it is noticable. Scott mentioned that is was OK as long as the
                                        opponent has at least three or more armies. Personally I think that
                                        number is low but more importantly, if you are using W&P expansion,
                                        the neutrals only get d6 basic units, so a significant number of
                                        neutral territories will be vulnerable to being gobbled up easily.
                                        Scott doesn't notice this because his group concentrates on killing
                                        each other, while other groups, including mine, usually have a period
                                        of expansionism into the neutral territories for position and
                                        resources before players turn on one another.

                                        This discussion is an excellent example of different groups having
                                        different views of the game. Our group never had any problem with
                                        High Tech, but we never use the unconventional forces because we don't
                                        like them. We still use tanks, but we have come up with some changes
                                        to the setup rules to dampen their effects and we are working on a set
                                        of integrated miniatures rules to give a range of miniatures and
                                        completely eliminate the basic army unit from the game.

                                        I think that the lone point of agreement between all players is that
                                        Boomers is the worst expansion and the most unbalancing unit in the game.


                                        J
                                      • Scott David Orr
                                        ... You need three _warheads_, but with High-tech Edge you get multiple warheads from a single nuke. It should be noted, though, that hte High-tech rules
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 17, 2006
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                                          At 06:32 PM 5/17/2006, jlhilal wrote:

                                          >3) not only do cities change the targeting of nukes, they also change
                                          >the way nuclear winter can end the game. In the basic game, one nuke
                                          >destroys one territory, and 12-18 destroyed territories ends the game.
                                          > The MM rules change this to requiring three cities destroyed in a
                                          >territory to destroy the territory, but continues to count territories
                                          >to determine nuclear winter. This means that a minimum of 36 nukes
                                          >are required to end the game, and only if they all land in just the
                                          >right way.


                                          You need three _warheads_, but with High-tech Edge you get multiple
                                          warheads from a single nuke. It should be noted, though, that hte
                                          High-tech rules favor the defense: the L-stars in effect get an
                                          extra attack at HT 1 (they can fire at both the missile and the
                                          warhead), while the nukes don't get an extra warhead until HT 2.


                                          >This greatly reduces the possibility of the sore-loser or
                                          >bored player who launches his nukes to end the game.


                                          I know I never tired of saying it, but I've never seen this actually
                                          work. :) It's easy to prevent as long as everyone else is willing to
                                          champion the immediate victim with their L-stars.


                                          Scott Orr
                                        • Scott David Orr
                                          ... I don t think that solves the problem, since tech levels cost you literally nothing, and you can sell them to _every_ neutral, while weapons you can sell
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 17, 2006
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                                            At 06:52 PM 5/17/2006, jlhilal wrote:

                                            >Megasupremacy partly addressed the problem of sales to the neutrals,
                                            >but a lot of players miss the change. In the Build stage, the rules
                                            >for "Arms Bazaar" limit each player to three sales to any neutal of 1
                                            >item per sale, grand total of three items sold per game turn.


                                            I don't think that solves the problem, since tech levels cost you
                                            literally nothing, and you can sell them to _every_ neutral, while
                                            weapons you can sell at twice what you paid for them the previous
                                            turn. The money isn't _completely_ unlimited, but it's still
                                            significant, and still coming out of nowhere.


                                            >I am probably the one who wrote that tanks are unbalancing in a
                                            >previous post. I don't think that it is enough to ruin the game but
                                            >it is noticable. Scott mentioned that is was OK as long as the
                                            >opponent has at least three or more armies. Personally I think that
                                            >number is low but more importantly, if you are using W&P expansion,
                                            >the neutrals only get d6 basic units, so a significant number of
                                            >neutral territories will be vulnerable to being gobbled up easily.
                                            >Scott doesn't notice this because his group concentrates on killing
                                            >each other, while other groups, including mine, usually have a period
                                            >of expansionism into the neutral territories for position and
                                            >resources before players turn on one another.


                                            No, I'm aware of it--but you can roll over those neutrals easily even
                                            without tanks. The only difference is that you take fewer losses
                                            with the tanks, but armies are relatively cheap. The downside of the
                                            tanks is that they suck for attacking neutrals, because you can't do
                                            an airborne attack with them--meaning it costs a lot of oil to move
                                            them to where you want to move them, and it takes them a long time to
                                            get there, unless you happen to be right next to the neutral in question.

                                            That being said...objectively speaking, there's very little value in
                                            most cases to taking over the neutrals, since you can just bribe the
                                            warlords to ship the goods, and that's a lot cheaper than invading
                                            them, in the short run at least. Of course, they're not as secure,
                                            but it's pretty expensive for another player to bribe the warlords to
                                            block you off. Of course, if you play with the transfer of
                                            technology to industry rules, at higher tech levels the neutrals
                                            become essentially irrelevant.


                                            >This discussion is an excellent example of different groups having
                                            >different views of the game. Our group never had any problem with
                                            >High Tech, but we never use the unconventional forces because we don't
                                            >like them. We still use tanks, but we have come up with some changes
                                            >to the setup rules to dampen their effects and we are working on a set
                                            >of integrated miniatures rules to give a range of miniatures and
                                            >completely eliminate the basic army unit from the game.
                                            >
                                            >I think that the lone point of agreement between all players is that
                                            >Boomers is the worst expansion and the most unbalancing unit in the game.


                                            I don't see them as being a real problem--they mostly just add
                                            unnecessary complexity, though they do serve as really nasty navies
                                            (but I don't think it's worthwhile to use them for that, given what
                                            they cost). What do you have against them?

                                            Scott Orr
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