Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

what about Prop 2?

Expand Messages
  • Rachel
    What are peoples thoughts on Prop 2? I know this Prop seems like a no brainer to most people, but I am torn. Here is why: I respect all animals and feel they
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      What are peoples thoughts on Prop 2?

      I know this Prop seems like a no brainer to most people, but I am torn. Here is why:

      I respect all animals and feel they should be treated humanely. Even livestock.

      That said, I care for and work with people of low income and am concerned that if Prop 2
      passes the price of basic commodities like eggs will become too expensive for them to
      purchase. It will cost quite a bit of money for these farms who will need to modify their
      housing and that cost will ultimately be passed on to the consumer. At least for the small
      farmers I think it will be pretty expensive (and I prefer to support small farmers as much as I
      can).

      Seems like some of the issues are not necessarily about how much space is allowed per
      animal, but more about how clean their living areas are kept. Aren't there regular inspections
      of these farms like there are inspections of restaurants to prevent food borne illness and
      harm to the animals health?
    • Tim Oey
      Great question. I am also torn on Prop 2. I believe animals should be treated reasonably. But I grew up in a farming area. Farmers work extremely hard in a
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Great question.

        I am also torn on Prop 2. I believe animals should be treated reasonably.

        But I grew up in a farming area. Farmers work extremely hard in a dangerous profession and costs are already high. Many city folks don't understand and don't like a lot of things that farmers must do yet these things are just part of the cycle of life. If you eat meat, you should visit a farm and a slaughter house. It's not pretty, but that's life. (BTW, I am still eat meat but keep it very limited -- it is healthier for me as well).

        Rather than legislating this change I much prefer people to let their money do the talking. For instance, although I am against Prop 2, I spend considerable extra money to buy local organic eggs (Judy's Family Farm from the Hollenbeck Safeway, http://www.judysfarm.com/) and lots of other organic food. We almost never buy beef.

        If people are naturally going organic, there is no need to put laws in place around this.

        Plus, this law is likely to push some farms out of CA and into Mexico -- which is even worse!

        Finally, we have too many laws. In this case the REDUCE part of reuse, recycle kicks in for me. Laws are often blunt tools that often miss critical elements to really achieve what they were intended to do.

        Cheers,
        Tim

        At 3:54 PM +0000 11/1/08, Rachel wrote:
        >What are peoples thoughts on Prop 2?
        >
        >I know this Prop seems like a no brainer to most people, but I am torn. Here is why:
        >
        >I respect all animals and feel they should be treated humanely. Even livestock.
        >
        >That said, I care for and work with people of low income and am concerned that if Prop 2
        >passes the price of basic commodities like eggs will become too expensive for them to
        >purchase. It will cost quite a bit of money for these farms who will need to modify their
        >housing and that cost will ultimately be passed on to the consumer. At least for the small
        >farmers I think it will be pretty expensive (and I prefer to support small farmers as much as I
        >can).
        >
        >Seems like some of the issues are not necessarily about how much space is allowed per
        >animal, but more about how clean their living areas are kept. Aren't there regular inspections
        >of these farms like there are inspections of restaurants to prevent food borne illness and
        >harm to the animals health?
      • Sandi Spires
        Thanks for sending this thoughtful summary. I have been torn about this, too. I would certainly like all our animals to be raised in sustainable and healthy
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 1, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks for sending this thoughtful summary. I have been torn about this, too. I would certainly like all our animals to be raised in sustainable and healthy conditions. But I would prefer to see that done via consumer choice, better priorities in farm & land-use policy, etc. I am finally decided to vote No on this one.

          By the way, we have started raising backyard chickens, hoping for our first eggs by Thanksgiving. If you are interested, here are some links:

          http://www.urbanchickens.net/2008/03/raising-chickens-one-year-recap.html
          http://www.backyardchickens.com/
          http://www.mypetchicken.com/default.aspx
          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svchickens/?yguid=315800523

          --Sandi

          At 09:16 AM 11/1/2008, you wrote:

          Great question.

          I am also torn on Prop 2. I believe animals should be treated reasonably.

          But I grew up in a farming area. Farmers work extremely hard in a dangerous profession and costs are already high. Many city folks don't understand and don't like a lot of things that farmers must do yet these things are just part of the cycle of life. If you eat meat, you should visit a farm and a slaughter house. It's not pretty, but that's life. (BTW, I am still eat meat but keep it very limited -- it is healthier for me as well).

          Rather than legislating this change I much prefer people to let their money do the talking. For instance, although I am against Prop 2, I spend considerable extra money to buy local organic eggs (Judy's Family Farm from the Hollenbeck Safeway, http://www.judysfarm.com/) and lots of other organic food. We almost never buy beef.

          If people are naturally going organic, there is no need to put laws in place around this.

          Plus, this law is likely to push some farms out of CA and into Mexico -- which is even worse!

          Finally, we have too many laws. In this case the REDUCE part of reuse, recycle kicks in for me. Laws are often blunt tools that often miss critical elements to really achieve what they were intended to do.

          Cheers,
          Tim

          At 3:54 PM +0000 11/1/08, Rachel wrote:
          >What are peoples thoughts on Prop 2?
          >
          >I know this Prop seems like a no brainer to most people, but I am torn. Here is why:
          >
          >I respect all animals and feel they should be treated humanely. Even livestock.
          >
          >That said, I care for and work with people of low income and am concerned that if Prop 2
          >passes the price of basic commodities like eggs will become too expensive for them to
          >purchase. It will cost quite a bit of money for these farms who will need to modify their
          >housing and that cost will ultimately be passed on to the consumer. At least for the small
          >farmers I think it will be pretty expensive (and I prefer to support small farmers as much as I
          >can).
          >
          >Seems like some of the issues are not necessarily about how much space is allowed per
          >animal, but more about how clean their living areas are kept. Aren't there regular inspections
          >of these farms like there are inspections of restaurants to prevent food borne illness and
          >harm to the animals health?

           cheers,
           --Sandi Spires
           =========================================
          Phone: (408) 481-9818
          Mailto:sandispires@...
          =========================================

        • Jeremy Hubble
          How have the backyard chickens been? Regarding prop 2, the proposition itself is quite brief. I question what the impact will be if passed. The extreme
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 1, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            How have the backyard chickens been? 
            Regarding prop 2, the proposition itself is quite brief.  I question what the impact will be if passed.  The extreme nature of the two arguments presented seems to indicate that it is a great big unknown.

            However, the fines are quite small ($1000 maximum.)  I could see the some of the mega-producers just ignore the rules, and wait for a slap on the wrist. The smaller guys would probably be willing to make the changes (and may even do so if the legislation is not passed.)  Companies that use the legislation as justification for trucking in eggs from Mexico would probably have trucked them in anyway.

            The producers at the margins will probably be the most impacted.  Will they actually find animal health improved, thus lowering costs?  Or will they find costs of compliance so high that they exit?  With 6 years before effectiveness, I'd imagine some of these questions could be better worked out before hand.  (Though, I'd guess that we'd probably see the large farmers spend more on lawyers than compliance efforts.)

            I guess that puts me firmly in the 'torn' camp.

            Jeremy

            On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Sandi Spires <sandispires@...> wrote:
            Thanks for sending this thoughtful summary. I have been torn about this, too. I would certainly like all our animals to be raised in sustainable and healthy conditions. But I would prefer to see that done via consumer choice, better priorities in farm & land-use policy, etc. I am finally decided to vote No on this one.

            By the way, we have started raising backyard chickens, hoping for our first eggs by Thanksgiving. If you are interested, here are some links:

            http://www.urbanchickens.net/2008/03/raising-chickens-one-year-recap.html
            http://www.backyardchickens.com/
            http://www.mypetchicken.com/default.aspx
            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svchickens/?yguid=315800523

            --Sandi


            At 09:16 AM 11/1/2008, you wrote:

            Great question.

            I am also torn on Prop 2. I believe animals should be treated reasonably.

            But I grew up in a farming area. Farmers work extremely hard in a dangerous profession and costs are already high. Many city folks don't understand and don't like a lot of things that farmers must do yet these things are just part of the cycle of life. If you eat meat, you should visit a farm and a slaughter house. It's not pretty, but that's life. (BTW, I am still eat meat but keep it very limited -- it is healthier for me as well).

            Rather than legislating this change I much prefer people to let their money do the talking. For instance, although I am against Prop 2, I spend considerable extra money to buy local organic eggs (Judy's Family Farm from the Hollenbeck Safeway, http://www.judysfarm.com/) and lots of other organic food. We almost never buy beef.

            If people are naturally going organic, there is no need to put laws in place around this.

            Plus, this law is likely to push some farms out of CA and into Mexico -- which is even worse!

            Finally, we have too many laws. In this case the REDUCE part of reuse, recycle kicks in for me. Laws are often blunt tools that often miss critical elements to really achieve what they were intended to do.

            Cheers,
            Tim

            At 3:54 PM +0000 11/1/08, Rachel wrote:
            >What are peoples thoughts on Prop 2?
            >
            >I know this Prop seems like a no brainer to most people, but I am torn. Here is why:
            >
            >I respect all animals and feel they should be treated humanely. Even livestock.
            >
            >That said, I care for and work with people of low income and am concerned that if Prop 2
            >passes the price of basic commodities like eggs will become too expensive for them to
            >purchase. It will cost quite a bit of money for these farms who will need to modify their
            >housing and that cost will ultimately be passed on to the consumer. At least for the small
            >farmers I think it will be pretty expensive (and I prefer to support small farmers as much as I
            >can).
            >
            >Seems like some of the issues are not necessarily about how much space is allowed per
            >animal, but more about how clean their living areas are kept. Aren't there regular inspections
            >of these farms like there are inspections of restaurants to prevent food borne illness and
            >harm to the animals health?

             cheers,
             --Sandi Spires
             =========================================
            Phone: (408) 481-9818
            Mailto:sandispires@...
            =========================================


          • Sandi Spires
            The backyard chickens are fun, much more interesting than you might imagine. We raised them from chicks and they are now tweens . The only problem now is
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 1, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              The backyard chickens are fun, much more interesting than you might imagine. We raised them from chicks and they are now 'tweens'. The only problem now is that, in spite of clipped wings, they keep escaping from the area we fenced for them into our larger yard. This isn;t too bad, except for our worry that they could get to another yard and be hurt or lost.

              We have friends with backyard chickens, and I will tell you the flavor difference in the eggs is amazing. It makes a plain omelette into a gourmet feast!

              At 12:06 PM 11/1/2008, you wrote:

              How have the backyard chickens been? 
              Regarding prop 2, the proposition itself is quite brief.  I question what the impact will be if passed.  The extreme nature of the two arguments presented seems to indicate that it is a great big unknown.

              However, the fines are quite small ($1000 maximum.)  I could see the some of the mega-producers just ignore the rules, and wait for a slap on the wrist. The smaller guys would probably be willing to make the changes (and may even do so if the legislation is not passed.)  Companies that use the legislation as justification for trucking in eggs from Mexico would probably have trucked them in anyway.

              The producers at the margins will probably be the most impacted.  Will they actually find animal health improved, thus lowering costs?  Or will they find costs of compliance so high that they exit?  With 6 years before effectiveness, I'd imagine some of these questions could be better worked out before hand.  (Though, I'd guess that we'd probably see the large farmers spend more on lawyers than compliance efforts.)

              I guess that puts me firmly in the 'torn' camp.

              Jeremy

              On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Sandi Spires <sandispires@...> wrote:
              Thanks for sending this thoughtful summary. I have been torn about this, too. I would certainly like all our animals to be raised in sustainable and healthy conditions. But I would prefer to see that done via consumer choice, better priorities in farm & land-use policy, etc. I am finally decided to vote No on this one.

              By the way, we have started raising backyard chickens, hoping for our first eggs by Thanksgiving. If you are interested, here are some links:

              http://www.urbanchickens.net/2008/03/raising-chickens-one-year-recap.html
              http://www.backyardchickens.com/
              http://www.mypetchicken.com/default.aspx
              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svchickens/?yguid=315800523

              --Sandi


              At 09:16 AM 11/1/2008, you wrote:

              Great question.

              I am also torn on Prop 2. I believe animals should be treated reasonably.

              But I grew up in a farming area. Farmers work extremely hard in a dangerous profession and costs are already high. Many city folks don't understand and don't like a lot of things that farmers must do yet these things are just part of the cycle of life. If you eat meat, you should visit a farm and a slaughter house. It's not pretty, but that's life. (BTW, I am still eat meat but keep it very limited -- it is healthier for me as well).

              Rather than legislating this change I much prefer people to let their money do the talking. For instance, although I am against Prop 2, I spend considerable extra money to buy local organic eggs (Judy's Family Farm from the Hollenbeck Safeway, http://www.judysfarm.com/) and lots of other organic food. We almost never buy beef.

              If people are naturally going organic, there is no need to put laws in place around this.

              Plus, this law is likely to push some farms out of CA and into Mexico -- which is even worse!

              Finally, we have too many laws. In this case the REDUCE part of reuse, recycle kicks in for me. Laws are often blunt tools that often miss critical elements to really achieve what they were intended to do.

              Cheers,
              Tim

              At 3:54 PM +0000 11/1/08, Rachel wrote:
              >What are peoples thoughts on Prop 2?
              >
              >I know this Prop seems like a no brainer to most people, but I am torn. Here is why:
              >
              >I respect all animals and feel they should be treated humanely. Even livestock.
              >
              >That said, I care for and work with people of low income and am concerned that if Prop 2
              >passes the price of basic commodities like eggs will become too expensive for them to
              >purchase. It will cost quite a bit of money for these farms who will need to modify their
              >housing and that cost will ultimately be passed on to the consumer. At least for the small
              >farmers I think it will be pretty expensive (and I prefer to support small farmers as much as I
              >can).
              >
              >Seems like some of the issues are not necessarily about how much space is allowed per
              >animal, but more about how clean their living areas are kept. Aren't there regular inspections
              >of these farms like there are inspections of restaurants to prevent food borne illness and
              >harm to the animals health?

               cheers,
               --Sandi Spires
               =========================================
              Phone: (408) 481-9818
              Mailto:sandispires@...
              =========================================


               cheers,
               --Sandi Spires
               =========================================
              Phone: (408) 481-9818
              Mailto:sandispires@...
              =========================================

            • Marilyn Beck
              I have been researching Prop 2 tonight and I have decided to vote yes. ... space is allowed per ... Aren t there regular inspections ... food borne illness and
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 1, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                I have been researching Prop 2 tonight and I have decided to vote yes.

                To answer Rachel's question:
                >Seems like some of the issues are not necessarily about how much
                space is allowed per
                >animal, but more about how clean their living areas are kept.
                Aren't there regular inspections
                >of these farms like there are inspections of restaurants to prevent
                food borne illness and
                >harm to the animals health?

                This doesn't exactly answer your question, but the yes on prop 2 website http://www.yesonprop2.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=38&Itemid=77 says:
                The USDA does not have any regulations whatsoever for the treatment of animals raised for food while they're on the farm. While the European Union is phasing out the three confinement practices prohibited by the Prevention of Farm Animal Cruelty Act, there are no federal laws in the United States that regulate on-farm treatment of animals raised for food.

                And for Tim's point::
                Plus, this law is likely to push some farms out of CA and into Mexico -- which is even worse!

                from the same website
                When asked about this allegation, even Dan Sumner, the author of an anti-Prop 2 report, conceded,"I personally think that's unlikely...Mexico doesn't produce much feed corn and that's why Mexico isn't a logical place for production."

                I'm sure some people are willing to pay for organic eggs, but that's still a minority. In the meantime, I would like to see the laying hens have an easier time. I'm also impressed by the list of supporters for Prop 2:
                Prop 2 is endorsed by the Sierra Club, Clean Water Action, Environmental Integrity Project, Consumer Federation of America, Center for Food Safety, Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition, Center for Science in the Public Interest, Union of Concerned Scientists, California Veterinary Medical Association, The Humane Society of the United States, California Democratic Party (and the Environmental Caucus), and the Cesar Chavez Foundation. Individual endorsers include U.S. Senators Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein, state schools chief Jack O’Connell, state Senator Dean Florez, and authors Michael Pollan and Bill McKibben.

                And as for the cost, one study says it will cost pennies per dozen eggs to make the change. Not that there is consensus on that point! It is expected to decrease the amount of pollution near some factory farms, probably because this proposition results in less chickens per farm.

                Marilyn


                Tim Oey wrote:

                Great question.

                I am also torn on Prop 2. I believe animals should be treated reasonably.

                But I grew up in a farming area. Farmers work extremely hard in a dangerous profession and costs are already high. Many city folks don't understand and don't like a lot of things that farmers must do yet these things are just part of the cycle of life. If you eat meat, you should visit a farm and a slaughter house. It's not pretty, but that's life. (BTW, I am still eat meat but keep it very limited -- it is healthier for me as well).

                Rather than legislating this change I much prefer people to let their money do the talking. For instance, although I am against Prop 2, I spend considerable extra money to buy local organic eggs (Judy's Family Farm from the Hollenbeck Safeway, http://www.judysfar m.com/) and lots of other organic food. We almost never buy beef.

                If people are naturally going organic, there is no need to put laws in place around this.

                Plus, this law is likely to push some farms out of CA and into Mexico -- which is even worse!

                Finally, we have too many laws. In this case the REDUCE part of reuse, recycle kicks in for me. Laws are often blunt tools that often miss critical elements to really achieve what they were intended to do.

                Cheers,
                Tim

                At 3:54 PM +0000 11/1/08, Rachel wrote:
                >What are peoples thoughts on Prop 2?
                >
                >I know this Prop seems like a no brainer to most people, but I am torn. Here is why:
                >
                >I respect all animals and feel they should be treated humanely. Even livestock.
                >
                >That said, I care for and work with people of low income and am concerned that if Prop 2
                >passes the price of basic commodities like eggs will become too expensive for them to
                >purchase. It will cost quite a bit of money for these farms who will need to modify their
                >housing and that cost will ultimately be passed on to the consumer. At least for the small
                >farmers I think it will be pretty expensive (and I prefer to support small farmers as much as I
                >can).
                >
                >Seems like some of the issues are not necessarily about how much space is allowed per
                >animal, but more about how clean their living areas are kept. Aren't there regular inspections
                >of these farms like there are inspections of restaurants to prevent food borne illness and
                >harm to the animals health?

              • rperelma
                There is a big difference between so called organic eggs, or eggs from cage-free chickens, vs. eggs that truly come from chickens that roam freely in a
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 2, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  There is a big difference between so called "organic" eggs, or eggs
                  from "cage-free" chickens, vs. eggs that truly come from chickens that
                  roam freely in a pasture. We buy our eggs at the Mountain View farmer's
                  market on Sundays from TLC Ranch
                  <http://www.tasteslikechickenranch.com/>, which are from the latter
                  category.
                • Tim Oey
                  Even better, some friends of ours have chickens in their backyard and are now getting the freshest and most local eggs possible. Hmmm... maybe someday we will
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 2, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    [SunnyvaleCafe] Re: what about Prop 2?
                    Even better, some friends of ours have chickens in their backyard and are now getting the freshest and most local eggs possible.

                    Hmmm... maybe someday we will all be back on our own family farms :-)

                    Cheers,
                    Tim

                    At 10:45 PM +0000 11/2/08, rperelma wrote:
                    There is a big difference between so called "organic" eggs, or eggs
                    from "cage-free" chickens, vs. eggs that truly come from chickens that
                    roam freely in a pasture. We buy our eggs at the Mountain View farmer's
                    market on Sundays from TLC Ranch
                    <http://www.tasteslikechickenranch.com/>, which are from the latter
                    category.
                  • Tim Oey
                    Some good friends of mine have come out strongly in favor of Prop 2. In rereading the arguments against it, the people against it come out a bit shrill and not
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 3, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Some good friends of mine have come out strongly in favor of Prop 2.
                      In rereading the arguments against it, the people against it come out
                      a bit shrill and not as fact based as one might have hoped. The
                      neutral legislative analyst material lays it out pretty clearly.

                      It's a tough call -- fewer laws vs more, easier for business vs
                      harder, easier to control disease vs possibly harder, more expensive
                      vs cheaper, harsher on animals vs nicer. Yes I'm still conflicted on
                      this one.

                      Cheers,
                      Tim
                    • mski04
                      It is a toughie and I m still thinking about it but here are some points LWV made in the presentation I attended, even though they did not take a stand on this
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 4, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        It is a toughie and I'm still thinking about it but here are some
                        points LWV made in the presentation I attended, even though they did
                        not take a stand on this prop:

                        - Egg producers wouldn't necessarily be driven to Mexico, but possibly
                        other states, resulting in a fiscal effect for the state.
                        - Farmers have until 2015 to comply (so it is not an immediate hardship
                        - There are already laws affecting the transport and slaughter of
                        animals but none that address how animals are raised.


                        --- In SunnyvaleCafe@yahoogroups.com, Tim Oey <tim.yg@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Some good friends of mine have come out strongly in favor of Prop 2.
                        > In rereading the arguments against it, the people against it come out
                        > a bit shrill and not as fact based as one might have hoped. The
                        > neutral legislative analyst material lays it out pretty clearly.
                        >
                        > It's a tough call -- fewer laws vs more, easier for business vs
                        > harder, easier to control disease vs possibly harder, more expensive
                        > vs cheaper, harsher on animals vs nicer. Yes I'm still conflicted on
                        > this one.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Tim
                        >
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.