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What characteristics make an excellent General?

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  • dej2_
    Well in the Art of War Sun Tzu states that All warfare is based on Deception . Does this mean the most devious of people make better generals than that of
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 3, 2006
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      Well in the Art of War Sun Tzu states that "All warfare is based on
      Deception". Does this mean the most devious of people make better
      generals than that of honorable or trusting people.

      At the end of Chapter 8
      One who is courageous can be killed; If he values life he can be
      captured; if he has a volatile temper, he can be provoked; if he has
      uncompromising honor, he is open to insult; if he loves his people, he
      can be easily troubled.
      ___________________
      As a leader can I put my trust in a person who is excellent at
      deception, but I fear someday he may deceive me? Or should I only trust
      honest people, then would an honest person be susceptible to being
      tricked by the dishonest? Does Sun Tzu have any words about seeking
      those that are honest but wise to the ways of the unscrupulous?
    • gus videos
      Hahahaha! Darren wants to get a conversation going. I ll oblige then. A fallacy exists that deception is a tool used only by the dishonorable or of dubious
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 4, 2006
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        Hahahaha!  Darren wants to get a conversation going.  I'll oblige then.
         
        A fallacy exists that deception is a tool used only by the dishonorable or of dubious character.  Deception is just another a tool (<-don't I always say that?) in the warrior's arsenal. 
         
        Deceptition means not meeting your opponent's expectation.  If your opponent believes you are going to do Action A or go to Point A, and instead you do Action B or go to Point B, then you have deceived your opponent.  Nothing malevelont or evil there.  I have two excellent examples of nice uses of deception:  throwing a loved one a surprise party and surpassing your client's expectations in service.  Deception is an effective way of removing either your opponent or your ally as a resistor to your plans, thereby making your success that much easier.

        dej2_ <dej2_@...> wrote:
        Well in the Art of War Sun Tzu states that "All warfare is based on
        Deception". Does this mean the most devious of people make better
        generals than that of honorable or trusting people.

        At the end of Chapter 8
        One who is courageous can be killed; If he values life he can be
        captured; if he has a volatile temper, he can be provoked; if he has
        uncompromising honor, he is open to insult; if he loves his people, he
        can be easily troubled.
        ____________ _______
        As a leader can I put my trust in a person who is excellent at
        deception, but I fear someday he may deceive me? Or should I only trust
        honest people, then would an honest person be susceptible to being
        tricked by the dishonest? Does Sun Tzu have any words about seeking
        those that are honest but wise to the ways of the unscrupulous?
        .




        Gus Maximus
        The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
        Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
        http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
        gus@...


        Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.

      • dej2_
        We have an acquaintance that appears to be a compulsive liar. This person will make up lies even when not necessary. This person is very difficult to read,
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 4, 2006
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          We have an acquaintance that appears to be a compulsive liar. This
          person will make up lies even when not necessary. This person is very
          difficult to read, other than knowing that they are using the guise of
          being helpful, but undoubtedly having ulterior motives, our main
          problem is sometimes these motives may eventually conflict with our own
          goals.
          Do to conflicting interests, I may have to eventually break off
          relations with this person.
          I just thought, if anyone else had any dealings with a similar
          character type, could pass some ideas in dealing with them. (don't ask
          me for the details, I'm currently not privalaged in releasing such
          information, I can only address this issue in general terms at this
          time.)

          --- In Sun_Tzu@yahoogroups.com, gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hahahaha! Darren wants to get a conversation going. I'll oblige
          then.
          >
          > A fallacy exists that deception is a tool used only by the
          dishonorable or of dubious character. Deception is just another a tool
          (<-don't I always say that?) in the warrior's arsenal.
          >
          > Deceptition means not meeting your opponent's expectation. If your
          opponent believes you are going to do Action A or go to Point A, and
          instead you do Action B or go to Point B, then you have deceived your
          opponent. Nothing malevelont or evil there. I have two excellent
          examples of nice uses of deception: throwing a loved one a surprise
          party and surpassing your client's expectations in service. Deception
          is an effective way of removing either your opponent or your ally as a
          resistor to your plans, thereby making your success that much easier.
        • gus videos
          My wife had a similar situation. She had a trusted friend in a group of three that, unknown to my wife and her friend, had lied about everything. She lied
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 4, 2006
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            My wife had a similar situation.  She had a trusted friend in a group of three that, unknown to my wife and her friend, had lied about everything.  She lied about where she lived, what she did, and what she felt.  She made up stories all the time.  She even made credit card purchases to the amount of around $15,000 on my wife's friend credit.  And all this was happening while they were the best of friends together.  It was a tragic blow to my wife when she found out about being deceived.
             
            Her solution was to confront her friend.  After her friend continued to lie, my wife also ended the relationship.  My wife is still affected by the ordeal.

            dej2_ <dej2_@...> wrote:
            We have an acquaintance that appears to be a compulsive liar. This
            person will make up lies even when not necessary. This person is very
            difficult to read, other than knowing that they are using the guise of
            being helpful, but undoubtedly having ulterior motives, our main
            problem is sometimes these motives may eventually conflict with our own
            goals.
            Do to conflicting interests, I may have to eventually break off
            relations with this person.
            I just thought, if anyone else had any dealings with a similar
            character type, could pass some ideas in dealing with them. (don't ask
            me for the details, I'm currently not privalaged in releasing such
            information, I can only address this issue in general terms at this
            time.)

            --- In Sun_Tzu@yahoogroups .com, gus videos <gusvideos@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > Hahahaha! Darren wants to get a conversation going. I'll oblige
            then.
            >
            > A fallacy exists that deception is a tool used only by the
            dishonorable or of dubious character. Deception is just another a tool
            (<-don't I always say that?) in the warrior's arsenal.
            >
            > Deceptition means not meeting your opponent's expectation. If your
            opponent believes you are going to do Action A or go to Point A, and
            instead you do Action B or go to Point B, then you have deceived your
            opponent. Nothing malevelont or evil there. I have two excellent
            examples of nice uses of deception: throwing a loved one a surprise
            party and surpassing your client's expectations in service. Deception
            is an effective way of removing either your opponent or your ally as a
            resistor to your plans, thereby making your success that much easier.




            Gus Maximus
            The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
            Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
            http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
            gus@...


            Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

          • dej2_
            I would like to add, that early in this relationship this person wanted to open a business venture with my wife and myself. In the beggining, I was actually
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 4, 2006
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              I would like to add, that early in this relationship this person
              wanted to open a business venture with my wife and myself. In the
              beggining, I was actually tempted to start this business, but now
              that we've have a much better knowledge of how this person opperates,
              I've really counted my blessings that we didn't, and assuredly we
              never will.

              From this lesson, I believe we have become very cautious who we
              consider our friends.
              ____
              I found this post on "Yahoo! Answers", it seems to be relevent to
              this topic. She's speaks of Habitual Liars;
              "My Soon-to-be-ex is a pathological liar. He lies to manipulate and
              contol everything to his advantage. He even uses his family members,
              co-workers, and friends in these deceptive ploys.

              He is very likely a narcissist per our 5 marriage counselors. They
              describe him as: shallow, artificial, and extremely self-centered.
              The lying is as easy as breathing to him.

              It actually hurts my brain to try to have an adult conversation with
              the demented illogical evasiveness of his responses.

              Once you finally break their cover story though, you are very aware
              that your whole life with the guy is a lie. He projects an image- but
              it is a hologram- not real or genuine at all."

              --- In Sun_Tzu@yahoogroups.com, gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:
              >
              > My wife had a similar situation. She had a trusted friend in a
              group of three that, unknown to my wife and her friend, had lied
              about everything. She lied about where she lived, what she did, and
              what she felt. She made up stories all the time. She even made
              credit card purchases to the amount of around $15,000 on my wife's
              friend credit. And all this was happening while they were the best
              of friends together. It was a tragic blow to my wife when she found
              out about being deceived.
              >
              > Her solution was to confront her friend. After her friend
              continued to lie, my wife also ended the relationship. My wife is
              still affected by the ordeal.
              >
              > dej2_ <dej2_@...> wrote:
              > We have an acquaintance that appears to be a compulsive
              liar. This
              > person will make up lies even when not necessary. This person is
              very
              > difficult to read, other than knowing that they are using the guise
              of
              > being helpful, but undoubtedly having ulterior motives, our main
              > problem is sometimes these motives may eventually conflict with our
              own
              > goals.
              > Do to conflicting interests, I may have to eventually break off
              > relations with this person.
              > I just thought, if anyone else had any dealings with a similar
              > character type, could pass some ideas in dealing with them. (don't
              ask
              > me for the details, I'm currently not privalaged in releasing such
              > information, I can only address this issue in general terms at this
              > time.)
              >
              > --- In Sun_Tzu@yahoogroups.com, gus videos <gusvideos@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hahahaha! Darren wants to get a conversation going. I'll oblige
              > then.
              > >
              > > A fallacy exists that deception is a tool used only by the
              > dishonorable or of dubious character. Deception is just another a
              tool
              > (<-don't I always say that?) in the warrior's arsenal.
              > >
              > > Deceptition means not meeting your opponent's expectation. If
              your
              > opponent believes you are going to do Action A or go to Point A,
              and
              > instead you do Action B or go to Point B, then you have deceived
              your
              > opponent. Nothing malevelont or evil there. I have two excellent
              > examples of nice uses of deception: throwing a loved one a surprise
              > party and surpassing your client's expectations in service.
              Deception
              > is an effective way of removing either your opponent or your ally
              as a
              > resistor to your plans, thereby making your success that much
              easier.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Gus Maximus
              > The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
              > Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
              > http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
              > gus@...
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful
              email and get things done faster.
              >
            • Wil
              The two passages you quote from Sun Tzu speak to different elements of warfare. One provides suggestions on how to leverage the nature of the competitors
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 6, 2006
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                The two passages you quote from Sun Tzu speak to different elements of warfare. One provides suggestions on how to leverage the nature of the competitors against themselves the other to the permeating nature of deceptions in our lives.
                 
                As pointed out earlier deceptions are a tool we all use in everyday life.  Women place makeup on their faces to deceive others to their attractiveness, the general deceives to save the lives under his command, your coworker may speak more politely and use more professional language in front of the CEO or clients, even the preacher man who pounds his bible is putting on a front.
                 
                Just as deceptions are a tool, trust is also a tool and necessary part of life. We even place some level of trust in our enemies to live up to some international standard of decency and morality, and we trust in our spouses to be our sounding boards and companions.
                 
                In terms of your question about honor, trusting and deceiving I believe I would have to say: Yes, a person who is skilled in the use of their deceptions and trust, given all else equal, will most likely prevail over those who are less skilled in the use of their deceptions and trust.
                 
                Honor speaks to social norms not necessarily strategy: we accept women and their makeup as honorable but there are also behaviors that we clearly consider out of our social norm and label them dishonorable or crimes.
                 
                It’s very difficult to suggest how to deal with a deception without understanding the nature and intentions of the person doing the deceiving. My three year old proclaims her arm is broke and she can not use it to get a little attention, a big hug, and a tickle from daddy; the pathological liar may be trying to take the equity in my home or fulfilling a deep need for security and control in their lives.
                 
                I will say confronting a pathological liar with over whelming evidence of their lying may leave them still holding the advantage. You may appear to have won the battle but you have not defeated them.  In fact, they may choose to withhold some information and convince themselves that you simply don’t understand, they may tell you what you want to hear while holding back what they truly believe.
                 
                Confronting a pathological liar seems futile if you have not taken the prerequisite steps to insure the confrontation creates the shattering affect necessary for frontal attacks. Instead understand their nature and look for their flanks.


                dej2_ <dej2_@...> wrote:
                Well in the Art of War Sun Tzu states that "All warfare is based on
                Deception". Does this mean the most devious of people make better
                generals than that of honorable or trusting people.

                At the end of Chapter 8
                One who is courageous can be killed; If he values life he can be
                captured; if he has a volatile temper, he can be provoked; if he has
                uncompromising honor, he is open to insult; if he loves his people, he
                can be easily troubled.
                ____________ _______
                As a leader can I put my trust in a person who is excellent at
                deception, but I fear someday he may deceive me? Or should I only trust
                honest people, then would an honest person be susceptible to being
                tricked by the dishonest? Does Sun Tzu have any words about seeking
                those that are honest but wise to the ways of the unscrupulous?




                Thanks,
                Wil

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              • dej2_
                Thank you for the reply, your comments does have sound reasoning behind them, though somehow, it gives me little comfort in dealing with this (pathological
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 10, 2007
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                  Thank you for the reply, your comments does have sound reasoning behind
                  them, though somehow, it gives me little comfort in dealing with this
                  (pathological liar) person.
                • Wolfgang
                  For me a good general is one that can translate vague and general ideas set up by his leader into clear strategic and tactical applications that leads its
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 12, 2007
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                    For me a good general is one that can translate vague
                    and general ideas set up by his leader into clear
                    strategic and tactical applications that leads its
                    soldiers into clarity of purpose and fulfillment of
                    mission. Someone who further knows how to gain
                    resources to fulfill its aim and that can win the war
                    with as little loss of life as possible

                    Wolfgang




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                  • gus videos
                    I like this definition. Knowing how to strategically and tactically implement a goal using the least amount of resources is definitely a sign of a good
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 12, 2007
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                      I like this definition.  Knowing how to strategically and tactically implement a goal using the least amount of resources is definitely a sign of a good leader.

                      Wolfgang <intlempir@...> wrote:
                      For me a good general is one that can translate vague
                      and general ideas set up by his leader into clear
                      strategic and tactical applications that leads its
                      soldiers into clarity of purpose and fulfillment of
                      mission. Someone who further knows how to gain
                      resources to fulfill its aim and that can win the war
                      with as little loss of life as possible

                      Wolfgang
                      .




                      Gus Maximus
                      The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
                      Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
                      http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
                      gus@...


                      8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
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