Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

New member!

Expand Messages
  • gus videos
    Hello listmembers! I just joined and I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Gus Maximus and I am currently working on a book called The Art of Gamefare:
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 10, 2006
      Hello listmembers!
       
      I just joined and I wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Gus Maximus and I am currently working on a book called The Art of Gamefare: Defeating Your Opponent in Multiplayer Video Games.  This book is about one thing - winning.  It's near completion after a decade of research and gaming practice.
       
      Many of the concepts are based off Sun-tzu's The Art of War, but I wanted to make the principles of completion simple and contemporary.  One of the ways I accomplished this was to make connections between Sun-Tzu's teachings and the modern military.  That being the case, something did confuse me.  So my first question as a new member to this forum is this, what is the difference between maneuver and asymmetrical warfare?  Sun-tzu preached attack weakness and avoid strength, and I believe asymmetric warfare fits this description the closest.  Where does this leave maneuver warfare?  Is it merely an set of tactics implementing asymmetric strategies?  Let me know what you think.


      Gus Maximus
      The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
      Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
      http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
      gus@...


      Do you Yahoo!?
      Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
    • Douglas Henderson
      ... Maximus and I am currently working on a book called The Art of Gamefare: Defeating Your Opponent in Multiplayer Video Games. This book is about one thing
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 12, 2006
        --- In Sun_Tzu@yahoogroups.com, gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello listmembers!
        >
        > I just joined and I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Gus
        Maximus and I am currently working on a book called The Art of
        Gamefare: Defeating Your Opponent in Multiplayer Video Games. This
        book is about one thing - winning. It's near completion after a
        decade of research and gaming practice.
        >
        > Many of the concepts are based off Sun-tzu's The Art of War, but
        I wanted to make the principles of completion simple and
        contemporary. One of the ways I accomplished this was to make
        connections between Sun-Tzu's teachings and the modern military.
        That being the case, something did confuse me. So my first question
        as a new member to this forum is this, what is the difference
        between maneuver and asymmetrical warfare? Sun-tzu preached attack
        weakness and avoid strength, and I believe asymmetric warfare fits
        this description the closest. Where does this leave maneuver
        warfare? Is it merely an set of tactics implementing asymmetric
        strategies? Let me know what you think.
        >
        >
        > Gus Maximus
        > The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
        > Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
        > http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
        > gus@...
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
        >

        Well, I was going to suggest you try the maneuver warfare forum, but
        I see you are already there! ;-)

        This group is also low volume.

        But, to start off with, would you mind defining maneuver warfare,
        asymetric war? Are there accepted definitions (I may have to dig
        out my copy of Lind (also check out the links section at the
        maneuver warfare, some other games listed there, you might want to
        touch base this the posters of those links.

        http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/maneuverwarfare/links

        Real Life has had me hopping lately, so my posting has dropped to
        zero, but we'll see.

        Regards
        Doug

        Who still finds that my DOS Romance of the 3 Kingdoms works pretty
        well in modeling SZ <grin>
      • gus videos
        Douglas Henderson wrote: I got these defintions off of www.wikipedia.com Maneuver warfare (American English) or manoeuvre
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 13, 2006
          Douglas Henderson <kueikutzu@...> wrote:
          I got these defintions off of www.wikipedia.com
          Maneuver warfare (American English) or manoeuvre warfare is a concept of warfare that advocates attempting to defeat an adversary by incapacitating their decision-making through shock and disruption. Its concepts are reflected in a number of military strategies throughout history.
          Asymmetric warfare is a term that describes a military situation in which two belligerents of unequal strength interact and take advantage of their respective strengths and weaknesses. This interaction often involves strategies and tactics outside the bounds of conventional warfare.
          Im not sure how maeuver warfare operates, but asymmetric warfare sounds like Sun-tzu's philosophy.  In the Marine's handbook, even though they use both terms, they describe current Marine warfare thought as manuever warfare.  Boyd might have been the person to coin the word.  Makes sense since the book was written by one of his acolytes.
           

          Well, I was going to suggest you try the maneuver warfare forum, but
          I see you are already there! ;-)

          This group is also low volume.

          But, to start off with, would you mind defining maneuver warfare,
          asymetric war? Are there accepted definitions (I may have to dig
          out my copy of Lind (also check out the links section at the
          maneuver warfare, some other games listed there, you might want to
          touch base this the posters of those links.

          http://games. groups.yahoo. com/group/ maneuverwarfare/ links

          Real Life has had me hopping lately, so my posting has dropped to
          zero, but we'll see.

          Regards
          Doug

          Who still finds that my DOS Romance of the 3 Kingdoms works pretty
          well in modeling SZ <grin>
           
          > Hello listmembers!
          >
          > I just joined and I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Gus
          Maximus and I am currently working on a book called The Art of
          Gamefare: Defeating Your Opponent in Multiplayer Video Games. This
          book is about one thing - winning. It's near completion after a
          decade of research and gaming practice.
          >
          > Many of the concepts are based off Sun-tzu's The Art of War, but
          I wanted to make the principles of completion simple and
          contemporary. One of the ways I accomplished this was to make
          connections between Sun-Tzu's teachings and the modern military.
          That being the case, something did confuse me. So my first question
          as a new member to this forum is this, what is the difference
          between maneuver and asymmetrical warfare? Sun-tzu preached attack
          weakness and avoid strength, and I believe asymmetric warfare fits
          this description the closest. Where does this leave maneuver
          warfare? Is it merely an set of tactics implementing asymmetric
          strategies? Let me know what you think.
          >
          >
          > Gus Maximus
          > The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
          > Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
          > http://www.TheArtof Gamefare. com
          > gus@...
          >
          > ------------ --------- --------- ---
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
          >
          .




          Gus Maximus
          The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
          Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
          http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
          gus@...


          Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

        • David E. Cohen
          Hello. I was wondering why no one that I knew of had tried to actively integrate the concepts of the Art of War into video games. If I may ask, have you done
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 15, 2006
            Hello. I was wondering why no one that I knew of had tried to actively
            integrate the concepts of the Art of War into video games.

            If I may ask, have you done any other reading in the field? Perhaps
            Liddell-Hart's Strategy? I would recommend Musashi's Book of Five Rings
            and Yagyu's Book of Family Traditions on the Art of War as being even more
            appropriate for your purposes than Sun Tzu's Art of War, since they deal
            with both tactics and grand strategy from the point of view of both the
            individual fighter and the commanding general. In fact, I have written
            two short essays on the applicability of the last two books to the board
            game Diplomacy, but the conclusions are applicable to gaming in general.


            --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:

            > Hello listmembers!
            >
            > I just joined and I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Gus
            > Maximus and I am currently working on a book called The Art of Gamefare:
            > Defeating Your Opponent in Multiplayer Video Games. This book is about
            > one thing - winning. It's near completion after a decade of research
            > and gaming practice.
            >
            > Many of the concepts are based off Sun-tzu's The Art of War, but I
            > wanted to make the principles of completion simple and contemporary.
            > One of the ways I accomplished this was to make connections between
            > Sun-Tzu's teachings and the modern military. That being the case,
            > something did confuse me. So my first question as a new member to this
            > forum is this, what is the difference between maneuver and asymmetrical
            > warfare? Sun-tzu preached attack weakness and avoid strength, and I
            > believe asymmetric warfare fits this description the closest. Where
            > does this leave maneuver warfare? Is it merely an set of tactics
            > implementing asymmetric strategies? Let me know what you think.
            >
            >
            > Gus Maximus
            > The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
            > Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
            > http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
            > gus@...
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com
          • gus videos
            Wow David! You made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I am almost done with my book, which includes quotes from your mentioned books and more.
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 15, 2006
              Wow David! You made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.  I am almost done with my book, which includes quotes from your mentioned books and more.  Anyone who had insight into the Art of Winning was included, including Sun-Tzu, Napoleon, Rommel, Patton, Boyd, von Clausewitz, Liddel-Hart, Musashi, Bruce Lee and Bevin Alexander to name a few.  And this aforementioned list just included the military contributors, considering that businessmen and coaches are also interested in winning, like Jack Welch and Vince Lombardi.
               
              As for Sun-tzu’s relevancy on gaming, after all my research and practice (I have played multiplayer video games for more than a decade spending three to six hours per night playing against other highly skilled players) I consider Sun-tzu “Art of Warfare” the best book on winning (that is until my book comes out!  Teehee)  Why do I say this?  Because Sun-tzu truly shows the reader the true obstacle to winning is resistance, the reader can reach the pinnacle of martial arts skill, winning without fighting.  By resolving conflict, you become unstoppable.
               
              Why hasn’t anyone integrated concepts of war into video games?  Well, the real world had a head start of several thousand years.  And gamers are more practitioners than thinkers.  They don’t reflect, they just act.  Some of the veterans might not know that they are implementing high-end concepts in competing systems.  That’s where I come in.  It’s been a long hard journey, but fruition is close.  And it has really helped that I was dealing with a closed system with easily understandable laws.  It’s easier to see the rules of winning in a video game than it is in the real world.
               
              Now, because when I play, I am in the game playing on the ground as opposed to commanding it from the rear, I deal with tactics.  But I also can command my teammates, so I also deal with strategy.  So for my situation, tactics and strategy are the same.  I do both simultaneously.  For my situation, tactics are just an implementation of strategy.  I don’t make a distinction, which gets me in trouble when talking with my Marine friend.  For a large organization, the distinction has to be made.  But I think my situation is an advantage, for which would a general prefer to command, an army of privates or an army of generals?  In the most heated and intense of games with veteran gamers, most of the gamers know what they need to do to win, even if they are not the ones in command.
               
              And you are right David, if your articles are applicable to game Diplomacy, then they are also relevant to multiplayer video games.  And because the art of winning is just the art of being successful, I will also say that it applies to all facets of our lives.  I use the strategies that I have learned from gaming to help me in my marriage and at work for I seek success in those aspects of my life as well.
               
              By the way, I like your Diplomaxims.  Where can I go to read your articles?
               


              "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote:
              Hello. I was wondering why no one that I knew of had tried to actively
              integrate the concepts of the Art of War into video games.

              If I may ask, have you done any other reading in the field? Perhaps
              Liddell-Hart' s Strategy? I would recommend Musashi's Book of Five Rings
              and Yagyu's Book of Family Traditions on the Art of War as being even more
              appropriate for your purposes than Sun Tzu's Art of War, since they deal
              with both tactics and grand strategy from the point of view of both the
              individual fighter and the commanding general. In fact, I have written
              two short essays on the applicability of the last two books to the board
              game Diplomacy, but the conclusions are applicable to gaming in general.

              --- gus videos <gusvideos@yahoo. com> wrote:

              > Hello listmembers!
              >
              > I just joined and I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Gus
              > Maximus and I am currently working on a book called The Art of Gamefare:
              > Defeating Your Opponent in Multiplayer Video Games. This book is about
              > one thing - winning. It's near completion after a decade of research
              > and gaming practice.
              >
              > Many of the concepts are based off Sun-tzu's The Art of War, but I
              > wanted to make the principles of completion simple and contemporary.
              > One of the ways I accomplished this was to make connections between
              > Sun-Tzu's teachings and the modern military. That being the case,
              > something did confuse me. So my first question as a new member to this
              > forum is this, what is the difference between maneuver and asymmetrical
              > warfare? Sun-tzu preached attack weakness and avoid strength, and I
              > believe asymmetric warfare fits this description the closest. Where
              > does this leave maneuver warfare? Is it merely an set of tactics
              > implementing asymmetric strategies? Let me know what you think.
              .




              Gus Maximus
              The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
              Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
              http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
              gus@...


              How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

            • David E. Cohen
              Hello there. Those three were the ones that really stuck out. I left out a few others that I have read, like Clausewitz and Macchiavelli. In my opinion,
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 15, 2006
                Hello there. Those three were the ones that really stuck out. I left out
                a few others that I have read, like Clausewitz and Macchiavelli. In my
                opinion, both in RL and in gaming, there are close similarities between
                tactics and grand strategy.

                My essays, along with a bunch of other odds and ends, can all be found in
                my web site: http://diplomiscellany.tripod.com/. Look under "Diplomacy
                and the Way of the Warrior". For my personal gaming philosophy, look
                under "Soloism". Let me know what you think.



                P.S. Right now, I am looking for a copy of Maurice's Strategikon.




                --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:

                > Wow David! You made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I am
                > almost done with my book, which includes quotes from your mentioned
                > books and more. Anyone who had insight into the Art of Winning was
                > included, including Sun-Tzu, Napoleon, Rommel, Patton, Boyd, von
                > Clausewitz, Liddel-Hart, Musashi, Bruce Lee and Bevin Alexander to name
                > a few. And this aforementioned list just included the military
                > contributors, considering that businessmen and coaches are also
                > interested in winning, like Jack Welch and Vince Lombardi.
                >
                > As for Sun-tzu’s relevancy on gaming, after all my research and
                > practice (I have played multiplayer video games for more than a decade
                > spending three to six hours per night playing against other highly
                > skilled players) I consider Sun-tzu “Art of Warfare” the best book on
                > winning (that is until my book comes out! Teehee) Why do I say this?
                > Because Sun-tzu truly shows the reader the true obstacle to winning is
                > resistance, the reader can reach the pinnacle of martial arts skill,
                > winning without fighting. By resolving conflict, you become
                > unstoppable.
                >
                > Why hasn’t anyone integrated concepts of war into video games? Well,
                > the real world had a head start of several thousand years. And gamers
                > are more practitioners than thinkers. They don’t reflect, they just
                > act. Some of the veterans might not know that they are implementing
                > high-end concepts in competing systems. That’s where I come in. It’s
                > been a long hard journey, but fruition is close. And it has really
                > helped that I was dealing with a closed system with easily
                > understandable laws. It’s easier to see the rules of winning in a video
                > game than it is in the real world.
                >
                > Now, because when I play, I am in the game playing on the ground as
                > opposed to commanding it from the rear, I deal with tactics. But I also
                > can command my teammates, so I also deal with strategy. So for my
                > situation, tactics and strategy are the same. I do both simultaneously.
                > For my situation, tactics are just an implementation of strategy. I
                > don’t make a distinction, which gets me in trouble when talking with my
                > Marine friend. For a large organization, the distinction has to be
                > made. But I think my situation is an advantage, for which would a
                > general prefer to command, an army of privates or an army of generals?
                > In the most heated and intense of games with veteran gamers, most of the
                > gamers know what they need to do to win, even if they are not the ones
                > in command.
                >
                > And you are right David, if your articles are applicable to game
                > Diplomacy, then they are also relevant to multiplayer video games. And
                > because the art of winning is just the art of being successful, I will
                > also say that it applies to all facets of our lives. I use the
                > strategies that I have learned from gaming to help me in my marriage and
                > at work for I seek success in those aspects of my life as well.
                >
                > By the way, I like your Diplomaxims. Where can I go to read your
                > articles?
                >
                >
                >
                > "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello. I was wondering why no one that I knew of had tried to
                > actively
                > integrate the concepts of the Art of War into video games.
                >
                > If I may ask, have you done any other reading in the field? Perhaps
                > Liddell-Hart's Strategy? I would recommend Musashi's Book of Five Rings
                > and Yagyu's Book of Family Traditions on the Art of War as being even
                > more
                > appropriate for your purposes than Sun Tzu's Art of War, since they deal
                > with both tactics and grand strategy from the point of view of both the
                > individual fighter and the commanding general. In fact, I have written
                > two short essays on the applicability of the last two books to the board
                > game Diplomacy, but the conclusions are applicable to gaming in general.
                >
                >
                > --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Hello listmembers!
                > >
                > > I just joined and I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Gus
                > > Maximus and I am currently working on a book called The Art of
                > Gamefare:
                > > Defeating Your Opponent in Multiplayer Video Games. This book is about
                > > one thing - winning. It's near completion after a decade of research
                > > and gaming practice.
                > >
                > > Many of the concepts are based off Sun-tzu's The Art of War, but I
                > > wanted to make the principles of completion simple and contemporary.
                > > One of the ways I accomplished this was to make connections between
                > > Sun-Tzu's teachings and the modern military. That being the case,
                > > something did confuse me. So my first question as a new member to this
                > > forum is this, what is the difference between maneuver and
                > asymmetrical
                > > warfare? Sun-tzu preached attack weakness and avoid strength, and I
                > > believe asymmetric warfare fits this description the closest. Where
                > > does this leave maneuver warfare? Is it merely an set of tactics
                > > implementing asymmetric strategies? Let me know what you think.


                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com
              • gus videos
                Oooooohh, I liked your articles! I really liked the Soloism article. I m a Soloist! That s how I got to where I am today. When I play, I seek only one
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 15, 2006
                  Oooooohh, I liked your articles! 
                   
                  I really liked the Soloism article.  I'm a Soloist!  That's how I got to where I am today.  When I play, I seek only one outcome - victory.  Anything else is failure.  Using this goal as a indicator of failure or success, through the years I was able to build on The Art of Gamefare.  If i won, I did everything right.  If I failed, I did something wrong.  They say successful people are the best losers.  This makes sense when you consider you have to fail an incredible amount of times before you can succeed.
                   
                  Diplomacy sounds like a very interesting game.  One of my personal greatest achievements was winning a game where the battlefield was occupied by three seperate armies.  If you thought beating one opponent was hard, try two at the same time!  But we were all bent on destroying one another for there was no draw in this game.  It must be really intense playing against five other players!  Reminds me of China and Warring States.  You must have some really good stories.
                   
                  Because in the video games I play the teams are statically set, I don't deal with allies.  What this means is strategically going by Sun-tzu's order, I attack strategies first, then I attack their armies.   I don't deal with attacking their alliances, so I am completely oblivious as to how to do it.  How do you attack alliances in Diplomacy David?

                  "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote:
                  Hello there. Those three were the ones that really stuck out. I left out
                  a few others that I have read, like Clausewitz and Macchiavelli. In my
                  opinion, both in RL and in gaming, there are close similarities between
                  tactics and grand strategy.

                  My essays, along with a bunch of other odds and ends, can all be found in
                  my web site: http://diplomiscell any.tripod. com/. Look under "Diplomacy
                  and the Way of the Warrior". For my personal gaming philosophy, look
                  under "Soloism". Let me know what you think.

                  P.S. Right now, I am looking for a copy of Maurice's Strategikon.
                  .




                  Gus Maximus
                  The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
                  Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
                  http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
                  gus@...


                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                • David E. Cohen
                  Awww, shucks, thank you. :^) A Dip-virgin, eh? How to explain The Game. Well, to an extent, it is like Risk for grownups, and also in a way like chess
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 16, 2006
                    Awww, shucks, thank you. :^)


                    A Dip-virgin, eh? How to explain The Game. Well, to an extent, it is
                    like Risk for grownups, and also in a way like chess against 6 other
                    players on the same board. Here is a "five minute teaching guide for you,
                    which should help (though you may want to simultaneously eyeball a map for
                    Standard Diplomacy--here is one
                    http://www.xcelco.on.ca/~ravgames/dipmaps/standard2_ra.gif ). I am afraid
                    I will be going on vacation for a fe days, but I will be glad to answer
                    any other questions when I get back.

                    TEACHING DIPLOMACY

                    A 5 Minute teaching guide.

                    Players: there are 7 players in the game, one for each of the major powers
                    in Europe in 1901: England, France, Germany, Italy, Austria, Russia
                    andTurkey.

                    Turns are divided: Spring and Fall with the game starting in Spring 1901.

                    Players discuss their plans for their pieces privately at the beginning of
                    the Spring and Fall moves.

                    You are not bound by anything you say or do with another player.

                    Players secretly write down their orders for their pieces and then they
                    are revealed and adjudicated simultaneously.

                    Abbreviations in order writing are listed on the conference map with S for
                    Support and C for Convoy.
                    When writing a support for a piece to move you have write where the
                    target piece is moving to.

                    There is no discussion when players have to retreat or make adjustments to
                    their positions.

                    The map is divided into different named spaces (called provinces in the
                    game).

                    Provinces can be water or land. Land provinces may be coastal or inland.

                    Split Coasts exist in St. Petersburg, Bulgaria and Spain. A fleet in
                    those provinces must be on one coast or another.

                    There are 34 supply centers on the map (stars/dots) scattered in 75 named
                    provinces.

                    To win you need 18 supply centers at the end of a Fall move.

                    Players start with 3 or 4 supply centers; these are your home centers in
                    one of 7 Great Powers.

                    The two piece types are: Army and Fleet.

                    For every supply center you own at the end of the Fall you may have one
                    piece on the board.

                    If you are short of pieces you build new ones in unoccupied home centers.

                    If you have more pieces than supply centers you must reduce your pieces to
                    equal the number of supply centers.

                    Each piece has equal strength so it moves with a force of 1 plus 1 for
                    each of its supports.

                    An Army may move or give support for another piece to move into or hold an
                    adjacent land .

                    A Fleet may move or give support for another piece to move into or hold an
                    adjacent water or coastal land province or convoy an Army to a coastal
                    land province.

                    Only one piece may be in a province at any time.

                    You may move all or some of your pieces each turn.

                    A piece moves only one province at a time to an adjacent province unless
                    you are an Army being convoyed.

                    No switching. Units ordered to each other's province do NOT switch
                    positions unless one is being convoyed.

                    Your piece may only do one of the following things in any turn:

                    MOVE to an adjacent province or be convoyed from a coastal land
                    province to a coastal land province
                    Fleets in split coasts may only move to adjacent coastal land or
                    water provinces.

                    SUPPORT to defend another adjacent piece in place if you could have
                    moved there and it is not moving.

                    SUPPORT a specific piece to attack another province that your unit could
                    move to; fleets in split
                    coasts may only support moves into a
                    province that they could have moved on.

                    CONVOY if a fleet, you can assist in convoying an army.

                    HOLD (also called Stand) in place doing nothing.

                    When giving support you are adding your force to the mover on, or the
                    holder of, a province.

                    You may support other people’s pieces.

                    Bounce: if units of equal support try to move to an unoccupied province
                    then they BOUNCE and no one gets in.

                    Supports are CUT by a piece moving on the supporter from other than the
                    province that the support is directed at.

                    To force someone out of a province requires that you have greater force
                    than the piece that is holding the province plus all of its supports to
                    Hold. A move with one support and a hold with one support bounce.

                    Cut supports do not count for the determination of who has the most force.

                    A convoy is a move of an army in one coastal land province to another by
                    a fleet or a chain of fleets in adjacent water provinces.

                    A fleet in a coastal land province may not convoy.

                    You can not dislodge or cut support of one of your own units. No
                    'friendly fire'.

                    Units forced out of their province are dislodged and must retreat to a
                    vacant adjacent province that it could otherwise legally move to.

                    You may not retreat to a province that was the site of a Bounce.

                    You may not retreat via a convoy.

                    If you can not retreat or decide not to retreat, the piece is disbanded.

                    A piece that is dislodged has no effect on the province from which the
                    mover came that dislodged it.

                    A convoying fleet that is dislodged disrupts the convoy and the convoy
                    does not take place.

                    Oddities: Kiel and Constantinople have a single coast due to their
                    waterways (Kiel Canal/Bosphorus). Denmark connects with Sweden so armies
                    can go between them but the Danish and Swedish coasts are not divided in
                    two. As a coastal land province you may not convoy through Denmark, Kiel
                    or Constantinople.




                    --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:

                    > Oooooohh, I liked your articles!
                    >
                    > I really liked the Soloism article. I'm a Soloist! That's how I got
                    > to where I am today. When I play, I seek only one outcome - victory.
                    > Anything else is failure. Using this goal as a indicator of failure or
                    > success, through the years I was able to build on The Art of Gamefare.
                    > If i won, I did everything right. If I failed, I did something wrong.
                    > They say successful people are the best losers. This makes sense when
                    > you consider you have to fail an incredible amount of times before you
                    > can succeed.
                    >
                    > Diplomacy sounds like a very interesting game. One of my personal
                    > greatest achievements was winning a game where the battlefield was
                    > occupied by three seperate armies. If you thought beating one opponent
                    > was hard, try two at the same time! But we were all bent on destroying
                    > one another for there was no draw in this game. It must be really
                    > intense playing against five other players! Reminds me of China and
                    > Warring States. You must have some really good stories.
                    >
                    > Because in the video games I play the teams are statically set, I
                    > don't deal with allies. What this means is strategically going by
                    > Sun-tzu's order, I attack strategies first, then I attack their armies.
                    > I don't deal with attacking their alliances, so I am completely
                    > oblivious as to how to do it. How do you attack alliances in Diplomacy
                    > David?
                    >
                    > "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote:
                    > Hello there. Those three were the ones that really stuck out.
                    > I left out
                    > a few others that I have read, like Clausewitz and Macchiavelli. In my
                    > opinion, both in RL and in gaming, there are close similarities between
                    > tactics and grand strategy.
                    >
                    > My essays, along with a bunch of other odds and ends, can all be found
                    > in
                    > my web site: http://diplomiscellany.tripod.com/. Look under "Diplomacy
                    > and the Way of the Warrior". For my personal gaming philosophy, look
                    > under "Soloism". Let me know what you think.
                    >
                    > P.S. Right now, I am looking for a copy of Maurice's Strategikon.

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com
                  • gus videos
                    Wow! That sure is a lot of rules. I guess it s easier to remember them when you play often. Hmm, looks like Diplomacy is a computer game. Here are some
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 17, 2006
                      Wow!  That sure is a lot of rules.  I guess it's easier to remember them when you play often.  Hmm, looks like Diplomacy is a computer game. Here are some questions for you David.
                       
                      Do you play other people or the computer?
                       
                      Where do you find your human opponents?
                       
                      How has Diplomacy helped your knowledge of the principles of competition?
                       
                      Thanks!  Hope your having an awesome vacation.

                      "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote:
                      Awww, shucks, thank you. :^)

                      A Dip-virgin, eh? How to explain The Game. Well, to an extent, it is
                      like Risk for grownups, and also in a way like chess against 6 other
                      players on the same board. Here is a "five minute teaching guide for you,
                      which should help (though you may want to simultaneously eyeball a map for
                      Standard Diplomacy--here is one
                      http://www.xcelco. on.ca/~ravgames/ dipmaps/standard 2_ra.gif ). I am afraid
                      I will be going on vacation for a fe days, but I will be glad to answer
                      any other questions when I get back.

                      TEACHING DIPLOMACY

                      A 5 Minute teaching guide.

                      Players: there are 7 players in the game, one for each of the major powers
                      in Europe in 1901: England, France, Germany, Italy, Austria, Russia
                      andTurkey.

                      Turns are divided: Spring and Fall with the game starting in Spring 1901.

                      Players discuss their plans for their pieces privately at the beginning of
                      the Spring and Fall moves.

                      You are not bound by anything you say or do with another player.

                      Players secretly write down their orders for their pieces and then they
                      are revealed and adjudicated simultaneously.

                      Abbreviations in order writing are listed on the conference map with S for
                      Support and C for Convoy.
                      When writing a support for a piece to move you have write where the
                      target piece is moving to.

                      There is no discussion when players have to retreat or make adjustments to
                      their positions.

                      The map is divided into different named spaces (called provinces in the
                      game).

                      Provinces can be water or land. Land provinces may be coastal or inland.

                      Split Coasts exist in St. Petersburg, Bulgaria and Spain. A fleet in
                      those provinces must be on one coast or another.

                      There are 34 supply centers on the map (stars/dots) scattered in 75 named
                      provinces.

                      To win you need 18 supply centers at the end of a Fall move.

                      Players start with 3 or 4 supply centers; these are your home centers in
                      one of 7 Great Powers.

                      The two piece types are: Army and Fleet.

                      For every supply center you own at the end of the Fall you may have one
                      piece on the board.

                      If you are short of pieces you build new ones in unoccupied home centers.

                      If you have more pieces than supply centers you must reduce your pieces to
                      equal the number of supply centers.

                      Each piece has equal strength so it moves with a force of 1 plus 1 for
                      each of its supports.

                      An Army may move or give support for another piece to move into or hold an
                      adjacent land .

                      A Fleet may move or give support for another piece to move into or hold an
                      adjacent water or coastal land province or convoy an Army to a coastal
                      land province.

                      Only one piece may be in a province at any time.

                      You may move all or some of your pieces each turn.

                      A piece moves only one province at a time to an adjacent province unless
                      you are an Army being convoyed.

                      No switching. Units ordered to each other's province do NOT switch
                      positions unless one is being convoyed.

                      Your piece may only do one of the following things in any turn:

                      MOVE to an adjacent province or be convoyed from a coastal land
                      province to a coastal land province
                      Fleets in split coasts may only move to adjacent coastal land or
                      water provinces.

                      SUPPORT to defend another adjacent piece in place if you could have
                      moved there and it is not moving.

                      SUPPORT a specific piece to attack another province that your unit could
                      move to; fleets in split
                      coasts may only support moves into a
                      province that they could have moved on.

                      CONVOY if a fleet, you can assist in convoying an army.

                      HOLD (also called Stand) in place doing nothing.

                      When giving support you are adding your force to the mover on, or the
                      holder of, a province.

                      You may support other people’s pieces.

                      Bounce: if units of equal support try to move to an unoccupied province
                      then they BOUNCE and no one gets in.

                      Supports are CUT by a piece moving on the supporter from other than the
                      province that the support is directed at.

                      To force someone out of a province requires that you have greater force
                      than the piece that is holding the province plus all of its supports to
                      Hold. A move with one support and a hold with one support bounce.

                      Cut supports do not count for the determination of who has the most force.

                      A convoy is a move of an army in one coastal land province to another by
                      a fleet or a chain of fleets in adjacent water provinces.

                      A fleet in a coastal land province may not convoy.

                      You can not dislodge or cut support of one of your own units. No
                      'friendly fire'.

                      Units forced out of their province are dislodged and must retreat to a
                      vacant adjacent province that it could otherwise legally move to.

                      You may not retreat to a province that was the site of a Bounce.

                      You may not retreat via a convoy.

                      If you can not retreat or decide not to retreat, the piece is disbanded.

                      A piece that is dislodged has no effect on the province from which the
                      mover came that dislodged it.

                      A convoying fleet that is dislodged disrupts the convoy and the convoy
                      does not take place.

                      Oddities: Kiel and Constantinople have a single coast due to their
                      waterways (Kiel Canal/Bosphorus) . Denmark connects with Sweden so armies
                      can go between them but the Danish and Swedish coasts are not divided in
                      two. As a coastal land province you may not convoy through Denmark, Kiel
                      or Constantinople.

                      --- gus videos <gusvideos@yahoo. com> wrote:

                      > Oooooohh, I liked your articles!
                      >
                      > I really liked the Soloism article. I'm a Soloist! That's how I got
                      > to where I am today. When I play, I seek only one outcome - victory.
                      > Anything else is failure. Using this goal as a indicator of failure or
                      > success, through the years I was able to build on The Art of Gamefare.
                      > If i won, I did everything right. If I failed, I did something wrong.
                      > They say successful people are the best losers. This makes sense when
                      > you consider you have to fail an incredible amount of times before you
                      > can succeed.
                      >
                      > Diplomacy sounds like a very interesting game. One of my personal
                      > greatest achievements was winning a game where the battlefield was
                      > occupied by three seperate armies. If you thought beating one opponent
                      > was hard, try two at the same time! But we were all bent on destroying
                      > one another for there was no draw in this game. It must be really
                      > intense playing against five other players! Reminds me of China and
                      > Warring States. You must have some really good stories.
                      >
                      > Because in the video games I play the teams are statically set, I
                      > don't deal with allies. What this means is strategically going by
                      > Sun-tzu's order, I attack strategies first, then I attack their armies.
                      > I don't deal with attacking their alliances, so I am completely
                      > oblivious as to how to do it. How do you attack alliances in Diplomacy
                      > David?
                      >
                      > "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                      > Hello there. Those three were the ones that really stuck out.
                      > I left out
                      > a few others that I have read, like Clausewitz and Macchiavelli. In my
                      > opinion, both in RL and in gaming, there are close similarities between
                      > tactics and grand strategy.
                      >
                      > My essays, along with a bunch of other odds and ends, can all be found
                      > in
                      > my web site: http://diplomiscell any.tripod. com/. Look under "Diplomacy
                      > and the Way of the Warrior". For my personal gaming philosophy, look
                      > under "Soloism". Let me know what you think.
                      >
                      > P.S. Right now, I am looking for a copy of Maurice's Strategikon.

                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      http://mail. yahoo.com



                      Gus Maximus
                      The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
                      Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
                      http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
                      gus@...


                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                    • David E. Cohen
                      That is a summary. The rulebook is a 24 page booklet, which is available on line at the hasbro web site. Diplomacy is first and foremost a board game, which
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 24, 2006
                        That is a summary. The rulebook is a 24 page booklet, which is available
                        on line at the hasbro web site.

                        Diplomacy is first and foremost a board game, which has been around for
                        close to 50 years. It was almost immediately adapted to play-by-mail,
                        and, starting in the early 1980s, played on the internet/email (which is
                        how I play almost exclusively). There have been three PC versions that I
                        know of, none of which have been terribly successful, mainly because the
                        AI is terrible (believe it or not, it is very tough to program the
                        human-like strategy, tactics and especially negotiation/diplomatic ability
                        necessary to play this type of game well).

                        Following from the first question, I play humans, exclusively. There is
                        no AI in existence that presents a challenge for even a moderately
                        competent player, though many people have been working on them for years.

                        There are numerous forums on the internet, both email and web-based, for
                        play.

                        A lot of the learning is subconscious. As far as Diplomacy helping my
                        knowledge of principals of competition, it is precisely because it is
                        fairly simple tactically, as games go, that play of Diplomacy is a great
                        tool for learning general lessons. Except in face-to-face play, there is
                        no time pressure like in "click-happy" video games, and unlike in
                        traditional war games, you don't have to worry about hundreds of different
                        units with a myriad of capabilities. All that is stripped away, and what
                        is left is simple and elegant.


                        --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:

                        > Wow! That sure is a lot of rules. I guess it's easier to remember them
                        > when you play often. Hmm, looks like Diplomacy is a computer game. Here
                        > are some questions for you David.
                        >
                        > Do you play other people or the computer?
                        >
                        > Where do you find your human opponents?
                        >
                        > How has Diplomacy helped your knowledge of the principles of
                        > competition?
                        >
                        > Thanks! Hope your having an awesome vacation.

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        http://mail.yahoo.com
                      • gus videos
                        Sounds like a very interesting game. I m really intrigue as to its human dimension when it comes to forming and breaking alliances. This something we don t
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 24, 2006
                          Sounds like a very interesting game.  I'm really intrigue as to its human dimension when it comes to forming and breaking alliances.  This something we don't deal with in first person shooting games.  Thanks for bringing this game to my attention David.  I'm going to have to give it a try.

                          "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote:
                          That is a summary. The rulebook is a 24 page booklet, which is available
                          on line at the hasbro web site.

                          Diplomacy is first and foremost a board game, which has been around for
                          close to 50 years. It was almost immediately adapted to play-by-mail,
                          and, starting in the early 1980s, played on the internet/email (which is
                          how I play almost exclusively) . There have been three PC versions that I
                          know of, none of which have been terribly successful, mainly because the
                          AI is terrible (believe it or not, it is very tough to program the
                          human-like strategy, tactics and especially negotiation/ diplomatic ability
                          necessary to play this type of game well).

                          Following from the first question, I play humans, exclusively. There is
                          no AI in existence that presents a challenge for even a moderately
                          competent player, though many people have been working on them for years.

                          There are numerous forums on the internet, both email and web-based, for
                          play.

                          A lot of the learning is subconscious. As far as Diplomacy helping my
                          knowledge of principals of competition, it is precisely because it is
                          fairly simple tactically, as games go, that play of Diplomacy is a great
                          tool for learning general lessons. Except in face-to-face play, there is
                          no time pressure like in "click-happy" video games, and unlike in
                          traditional war games, you don't have to worry about hundreds of different
                          units with a myriad of capabilities. All that is stripped away, and what
                          is left is simple and elegant.

                          --- gus videos <gusvideos@yahoo. com> wrote:

                          > Wow! That sure is a lot of rules. I guess it's easier to remember them
                          > when you play often. Hmm, looks like Diplomacy is a computer game. Here
                          > are some questions for you David.
                          >
                          > Do you play other people or the computer?
                          >
                          > Where do you find your human opponents?
                          >
                          > How has Diplomacy helped your knowledge of the principles of
                          > competition?
                          >
                          > Thanks! Hope your having an awesome vacation.

                          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                          http://mail. yahoo.com



                          Gus Maximus
                          The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
                          Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
                          http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
                          gus@...


                          Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                        • David E. Cohen
                          I can recommend some forums, if you wish. ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 24, 2006
                            I can recommend some forums, if you wish.


                            --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:

                            > Sounds like a very interesting game. I'm really intrigue as to its
                            > human dimension when it comes to forming and breaking alliances. This
                            > something we don't deal with in first person shooting games. Thanks for
                            > bringing this game to my attention David. I'm going to have to give it
                            > a try.
                            >
                            > "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote: That is a
                            > summary. The rulebook is a 24 page booklet, which is available
                            > on line at the hasbro web site.
                            >
                            > Diplomacy is first and foremost a board game, which has been around for
                            > close to 50 years. It was almost immediately adapted to play-by-mail,
                            > and, starting in the early 1980s, played on the internet/email (which is
                            > how I play almost exclusively). There have been three PC versions that I
                            > know of, none of which have been terribly successful, mainly because the
                            > AI is terrible (believe it or not, it is very tough to program the
                            > human-like strategy, tactics and especially negotiation/diplomatic
                            > ability
                            > necessary to play this type of game well).
                            >
                            > Following from the first question, I play humans, exclusively. There is
                            > no AI in existence that presents a challenge for even a moderately
                            > competent player, though many people have been working on them for
                            > years.
                            >
                            > There are numerous forums on the internet, both email and web-based, for
                            > play.
                            >
                            > A lot of the learning is subconscious. As far as Diplomacy helping my
                            > knowledge of principals of competition, it is precisely because it is
                            > fairly simple tactically, as games go, that play of Diplomacy is a great
                            > tool for learning general lessons. Except in face-to-face play, there is
                            > no time pressure like in "click-happy" video games, and unlike in
                            > traditional war games, you don't have to worry about hundreds of
                            > different
                            > units with a myriad of capabilities. All that is stripped away, and what
                            > is left is simple and elegant.
                            >
                            > --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Wow! That sure is a lot of rules. I guess it's easier to remember them
                            > > when you play often. Hmm, looks like Diplomacy is a computer game.
                            > Here
                            > > are some questions for you David.
                            > >
                            > > Do you play other people or the computer?
                            > >
                            > > Where do you find your human opponents?
                            > >
                            > > How has Diplomacy helped your knowledge of the principles of
                            > > competition?
                            > >
                            > > Thanks! Hope your having an awesome vacation.
                            >
                            > __________________________________________________
                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                            > http://mail.yahoo.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Gus Maximus
                            > The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
                            > Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
                            > http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
                            > gus@...
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
                            > countries) for 2¢/min or less.


                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                            http://mail.yahoo.com
                          • gus videos
                            No problem. I saw several relevant websites with tons of information. Even wikipedia had a generous page on Diplomacy. Im sad that the reviews on the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 24, 2006
                              No problem.  I saw several relevant websites with tons of information.  Even wikipedia had a generous page on Diplomacy.  Im sad that the reviews on the software games were very disappointing.  I was looking forward to getting one.  Do they have a web version of diplomacy?

                              "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote:
                              I can recommend some forums, if you wish.

                              --- gus videos <gusvideos@yahoo. com> wrote:

                              > Sounds like a very interesting game. I'm really intrigue as to its
                              > human dimension when it comes to forming and breaking alliances. This
                              > something we don't deal with in first person shooting games. Thanks for
                              > bringing this game to my attention David. I'm going to have to give it
                              > a try.
                              .




                              Gus Maximus
                              The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
                              Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
                              http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
                              gus@...


                              Do you Yahoo!?
                              Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

                            • David E. Cohen
                              Some forums are more web-based, others more email based. There is really something for everyone. ... __________________________________________________ Do You
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 24, 2006
                                Some forums are more web-based, others more email based. There is really
                                something for everyone.

                                --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:

                                > No problem. I saw several relevant websites with tons of information.
                                > Even wikipedia had a generous page on Diplomacy. Im sad that the
                                > reviews on the software games were very disappointing. I was looking
                                > forward to getting one. Do they have a web version of diplomacy?
                                >
                                > "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote: I can
                                > recommend some forums, if you wish.
                                >
                                > --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > Sounds like a very interesting game. I'm really intrigue as to its
                                > > human dimension when it comes to forming and breaking alliances. This
                                > > something we don't deal with in first person shooting games. Thanks
                                > for
                                > > bringing this game to my attention David. I'm going to have to give it
                                > > a try.

                                __________________________________________________
                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                http://mail.yahoo.com
                              • andy1066nz
                                I remember playing Diplomacy as a board game years ago. We often played well into the night.. and early morning. For me, the most enjoyable aspect, apart from
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 29, 2006
                                  I remember playing Diplomacy as a board game years ago. We often
                                  played well into the night.. and early morning. For me, the most
                                  enjoyable aspect, apart from the beer & pizza, was the interaction
                                  of all the players. I do think this would be extreamly difficult to
                                  replicate in an internet or computer-based version of the game; even
                                  with web-cams, broad-band internet connections & other assorted bits
                                  of boffinry designed to make things faster & easier to use but that
                                  usually make my internet experience somewhat frustrating... Still, I
                                  digress...

                                  Being in a room with a group of people enables you to experience the
                                  full spectrum of human communication, of gestures & body language,
                                  voice intonation, of remaining poker-faced whilst lying through your
                                  teeth.

                                  Another favourite board game from long ago was Civilization. Again,
                                  this was often played into the we small hours.

                                  Cheers!!!

                                  Andrew


                                  --- In Sun_Tzu@yahoogroups.com, "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Some forums are more web-based, others more email based. There is
                                  really
                                  > something for everyone.
                                  >
                                  > --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > No problem. I saw several relevant websites with tons of
                                  information.
                                  > > Even wikipedia had a generous page on Diplomacy. Im sad that the
                                  > > reviews on the software games were very disappointing. I was
                                  looking
                                  > > forward to getting one. Do they have a web version of diplomacy?
                                  > >
                                  > > "David E. Cohen" <david_e_cohen@...> wrote: I can
                                  > > recommend some forums, if you wish.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- gus videos <gusvideos@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Sounds like a very interesting game. I'm really intrigue as to
                                  its
                                  > > > human dimension when it comes to forming and breaking
                                  alliances. This
                                  > > > something we don't deal with in first person shooting games.
                                  Thanks
                                  > > for
                                  > > > bringing this game to my attention David. I'm going to have to
                                  give it
                                  > > > a try.
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________________________
                                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                  >
                                • gus videos
                                  Hahaha! It sounds like intellectual poker. I used to play Civilization a lot. I was a intermediate school teacher in a computer lab. After school, some kids
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 29, 2006
                                    Hahaha!  It sounds like intellectual poker. 
                                     
                                    I used to play Civilization a lot.  I was a intermediate school teacher in a computer lab.  After school, some kids and teachers would hang around and we would all play Civilization on the computer.  What awesome fun!  Though we did order pizza, but the beer was missing.  Hard to explain sending home drunk teenagers.  :)

                                    andy1066nz <andy1066nz@...> wrote:
                                    I remember playing Diplomacy as a board game years ago. We often
                                    played well into the night.. and early morning. For me, the most
                                    enjoyable aspect, apart from the beer & pizza, was the interaction
                                    of all the players. I do think this would be extreamly difficult to
                                    replicate in an internet or computer-based version of the game; even
                                    with web-cams, broad-band internet connections & other assorted bits
                                    of boffinry designed to make things faster & easier to use but that
                                    usually make my internet experience somewhat frustrating. .. Still, I
                                    digress...

                                    Being in a room with a group of people enables you to experience the
                                    full spectrum of human communication, of gestures & body language,
                                    voice intonation, of remaining poker-faced whilst lying through your
                                    teeth.

                                    Another favourite board game from long ago was Civilization. Again,
                                    this was often played into the we small hours.

                                    Cheers!!!

                                    Andrew
                                    .




                                    Gus Maximus
                                    The Art of Gamefare, The art of winning at multiplayer video games
                                    Do you know Digital Kung-Fu?
                                    http://www.TheArtofGamefare.com
                                    gus@...


                                    Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.

                                  • billr54619@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 8/29/2006 11:47:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Diplomacy has always had a very strong play be mail contingent, now become play by email.
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Sep 3, 2006
                                      In a message dated 8/29/2006 11:47:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, andy1066nz@... writes:

                                      I remember playing Diplomacy as a board game years ago. We often
                                      played well into the night.. and early morning. For me, the most
                                      enjoyable aspect, apart from the beer &pizza, was the interaction
                                      of all the players. I do think this would be extreamly difficult to
                                      replicate in an internet or computer-based version of the game; even
                                      with web-cams, broad-band internet connections &other assorted bits
                                      of boffinry designed to make things faster &easier to use but that
                                      usually make my internet experience somewhat frustrating... Still, I
                                      digress...


                                      Diplomacy has always had a very strong play be mail contingent, now become play by email. There is a group dedicated to real time Diplomacy over the Net, though that is conflated with people trying to do AI programs, and they mostly do "gunboat" Diplomacy - just doing the moves, Microprose did put out a computer Diplomacy out for a couple of months with very poor AI, but that went off the shelves when Hasbro bought out Avalon Hill. In the past year, Hasbro just got around to licensing another computer Diplomacy game through Paradox Entertainment. It also has issues, since the Paradox people, who really do have a nice AI engine in their Europa Universalis series, went a little bit overboard, and actually made it more difficult to just do a real-time event with n number of players. This may have been traceable to stupid direction from Hasbro, which does not seem to have a very good grasp of adult games, or really, anything more complex than Risk and Monopoly.

                                      Bill Riggs
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.