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Re: [Starship_Forum] Ethics of Being A Police Officer

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  • Ravenart@aol.com
    If you want police force that actually deal with violence, why not privatize them? Carl E. Mullin visionary artist and entrepreneur homo asteralis
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 1, 2003
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      If you want police force that actually deal with violence, why not privatize
      them?

      Carl E. Mullin
      visionary artist and entrepreneur
      homo asteralis
      <A HREF="mailto:ravenart@...">ravenart@...</A>
      <A HREF="http://www.ravenartstudio.com">www.ravenartstudio.com</A>

      I am for a government rigorously frugal and simple. Were we directed from
      Washington when to sow, when to reap, we should soon want bread. - Thomas
      Jefferson

      Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which
      permit this norm to be exceeded - here and there, now and then - are the work
      of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and
      almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny
      minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a
      society, the people then slip back into poverty.
      This is known as 'bad luck.- Robert A. Heinlein

      In a mature society, 'civil servant' is semantically equal to 'civil master'
      - Robert A. Heinlein
    • Beatrice Jones
      ... Mike, you are absolutely right in both your perception of what should be done and what actually is done. I have been involved with law enforcement over the
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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        Mike wrote:

        > I remember going to a
        > driver's training class some years ago and the
        > trainer was a police officer. He said that if he
        > encountered a fellow officer who made a mistake that
        > wasn't superserious, as a speeding violation, he would
        > just let it go. When I questioned this, that fellow
        > made fun of me, suggesting that if I were the officer
        > and it was my mother who made that violation, I'd even
        > ticket *her*. I answered that's precisely what I would
        > do, to the hooting of the class and the officer.

        Mike, you are absolutely right in both your perception of what should be
        done and what actually is done. I have been involved with law enforcement
        over the years as a reporter, a dispatcher, an Emergency Medical Technician,
        and now as an elected official. As an EMT, I was the seventh EMT pulled
        by a State Patrolman during a one-week time period for speeding (not to an
        emergency call). Unlike the other EMTs, I did not complain - I kidded the
        Highway Patrolman as he gave me the ticket. Several months later, this
        Highway Patrolman was involved in a nearly fatal traffic accident.
        Afterwards I was disappointed to hear him say that, after realizing what
        a great job everyone did, and after all of the visits and concern displayed by
        EMTs, police, and firefighters, he wouldn't hassle them any more. It is
        his job to "hassle" those who break the law - no matter who they are.

        > The way I see, this is in part an issue of lack of
        > ethical instruction among the officers, and in part
        > an issue in unjust laws that are on the books.

        Another part of this which you may not have considered is the enforced
        cameraderie between police officers. Many people who come in contact with
        police departments have only two responses - either fear or loathing.
        Police officers' families, lives, and friends are threatened every day by
        criminals who are caught performing a criminal act. This daily threat to officers
        causes them to 'close ranks' and go into a self-protective mode. Elected
        officials frequently have no idea what a police officer's job truly
        entails - and they will demand everything from the officers, from picking up
        trash when they are not on a call to excusing not only the elected officials
        but their families and friends from breaking laws - and the officials
        threaten their jobs if they do not aquiesce. Divorce rates are high in
        protective services because of the job stress and the odd hours. If police
        officers cannot depend on the politicians, the people whom they serve, nor
        their own families to succor them, whom else will they turn to other than
        each other? And, as in other similar situations such as soldiers in the
        trenches, they ignore the fallibility of these fellow officers because their
        very lives may depend on that cameraderie. That is why there are situations
        like "The Blue Wall" when police officers close ranks when one of them is
        accused of a crime.

        > As a libertarian, I believe that officers, including
        > IAD men, should "turn the other way" when hearing
        > about victimless crimes that their fellow officers
        > commit. I realize that officers are about enforcing
        > the laws of the time, but these laws are inherently
        > unjust since they are "without victims."

        Most seasoned police officers feel the way that you do about 'victimless
        crimes' - however, to look the other way when these crimes are committed is
        to invite job loss. You can blame Waco and Ruby Ridge on overzealous FBI
        and ATF - but the problem is in the political controllers of these divisions,
        who demand that their rules, not law, be enforced for the further political
        advancement of those in charge. I have known a few FBI folk and, one on one,
        they are honest, polite, and decent people. However, when given false,
        misleading, or emotionally charged information, or when their superiors tell
        them that their jobs are on the line and they must prove their loyalty and
        fealty, they either act as demanded or lose their jobs.

        > For those of you who can't quite see my reasoning
        > about turning one's eye away from victimless crimes,
        > consider what life would have been like in the South,
        > just 60 years ago, where Blacks could not drink at the
        > same water fountains as Whites.
        >
        > If I were a police officer then and there, I'd have
        > ignored as much of those activities as I could ignore
        > and keep my job. I'd have focused on issues of robbery
        > and murder, whether they involved Blacks or Whites. I
        > would reason that when Blacks drink at a public
        > fountain, there is no victim.

        You are absolutely right, and you would have also been admonished, written
        up, and ultimately fired by the people who demanded that you enforce those
        victimless laws to maintain your job. For example -
        In our area currently there is a certain level of drug dealing and
        prostitution occurring. The police officers attempt to ensure that it does
        not 'get out of hand' - i.e., any time they see an actual crime being
        committed, they respond immediately and firmly. However, there is a
        termagant who constantly writes letters to the editor, or gives speeches in
        public places, demanding that the police officers kick in doors of known or
        suspected drug dealers and prostitutes, violate their rights, and turn the
        city into a virtual police state to eradicate the drug and prostitute
        problem. This person does this for political reasons; he hates the current
        local political atmosphere and demands that 'decent, law-abiding citizens'
        be protected to the fullest and that all crime be eradicated. When he stirs
        up enough like minded political opportunists, they elected officials will be
        forced to act - which means that the police will be forced to violate more
        and more civil rights to ensure that everyone's jobs are maintained. That is
        how 'victimless crime' laws come to be written and enforced, that is how
        civil rights and the Constitution come to be ignored, that is how the game
        is played. From the small towns to the huge bureaucracies, the game does
        not stop and is played the same way.

        The way for evil to infect this nation is for the good people to do
        nothing - and so far, they have been doing nothing with all their
        hearts.

        Warmly,
        Bea Jones
      • ethcalc <ethcalc@yahoo.ca>
        A crime is something that is against the law, whatever the law might happen to be. Victimless means something such that there is no individual whose set of
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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          A crime is something that is against the law, whatever the law might
          happen to be.

          Victimless means something such that there is no individual whose set
          of rights are violated.

          Victimless crime must mean then, that there is something that is
          against the law such that no individual is harmed in any way,
          effectively _or_ potentially.

          Does anyone have an example of a "victimless crime"? A _serious_
          example?

          What is the purpose of the this term? Does it serve one? If so, for
          who?
        • Eddie X
          My question is what does this have to do with star ship propulsion? Ed X ... From: To: Sent: Sunday, March
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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            My question is what does this have to do with star ship propulsion?

            Ed X
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <ethcalc@...>
            To: <Starship_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:32 PM
            Subject: [Starship_Forum] Victimless Crimes


            > A crime is something that is against the law, whatever the law might
            > happen to be.
            >
            > Victimless means something such that there is no individual whose set
            > of rights are violated.
            >
            > Victimless crime must mean then, that there is something that is
            > against the law such that no individual is harmed in any way,
            > effectively _or_ potentially.
            >
            > Does anyone have an example of a "victimless crime"? A _serious_
            > example?
            >
            > What is the purpose of the this term? Does it serve one? If so, for
            > who?
            >
            >
            >
            > ~ * ~
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            >
            >
            >
          • ¥
            ... The question was inspired from the The Ethics of Being A Police Officer . It is a question of morality: A question and an answer of morality is
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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              --- In Starship_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie X" <dtrek@p...> wrote:
              > My question is what does this have to do with star ship propulsion?
              >
              > Ed X


              The question was inspired from the "The Ethics of Being A Police
              Officer".

              It is a question of morality: A question and an answer of morality
              is significant in all contexts. On a starship, morality exists just
              as it exists here on earth; just as the laws of physics exists. In a
              way, ethics is a subject that is all-encompassing; it is a discipline
              (or science, depending on how you look at it) that must be studied
              everywhere, and starship is not a subject to be excluded.

              My question is, 'what is _your_ answer'?

              To answer your question more directly, I would say that the laws of
              physics are laws that one _must_ obey, but there are laws that exist
              of another sort where one _ought_ to obey. How do you think we
              _ought_ to obey?
            • Monart Pon
              Eddie asked what does victimless crimes have to do with starship propulsion. (Answering this reminds me of the old objectivist game called Concepts in a
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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                Eddie asked what does victimless crimes have to do with starship
                propulsion. (Answering this reminds me of the old objectivist game
                called "Concepts in a Hat".)

                If a starship's political system has a statist, non-libertarian
                government that legislates against so-called victimless crimes (crimes
                where no-one's rights are violated), that legislates such laws for
                "the good of society" or whatever -- then the consequent oppression
                affects people's productivity and creativity, including the creativity
                of the propulsion engineers.

                (Eddie, this forum includes discussion of the philosophy of starship,
                well as the art and technology. Integration of the three is an aim of
                the forum, although one is free to have interest in only one of the
                areas.)


                Monart
                ~ * ~

                Eddie X wrote:

                > My question is what does this have to do with star ship propulsion?
                >
                > Ed X

                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: <ethcalc@...>
                > To: <Starship_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 9:32 PM
                > Subject: [Starship_Forum] Victimless Crimes
                >
                >
                > [...]
                > > Does anyone have an example of a "victimless crime"? A _serious_
                > > example?
                > >
                > > What is the purpose of the this term? Does it serve one? If so, for
                > > who?
              • Ed Minchau <spider_boris@yahoo.com>
                ... propulsion? ... a ... discipline ... And the questions of ethics, morality, police and government find their way into this list quite often. When you seek
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                  --- In Starship_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ¥ <ethcalc@y...>
                  <ethcalc@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In Starship_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie X" <dtrek@p...> wrote:
                  > > My question is what does this have to do with star ship
                  propulsion?
                  > >
                  > > Ed X
                  >
                  >
                  > The question was inspired from the "The Ethics of Being A Police
                  > Officer".
                  >
                  > It is a question of morality: A question and an answer of morality
                  > is significant in all contexts. On a starship, morality exists just
                  > as it exists here on earth; just as the laws of physics exists. In
                  a
                  > way, ethics is a subject that is all-encompassing; it is a
                  discipline
                  > (or science, depending on how you look at it) that must be studied
                  > everywhere, and starship is not a subject to be excluded.
                  >
                  >

                  And the questions of ethics, morality, police and government find
                  their way into this list quite often. When you seek to establish a
                  space colony, a place where people will lead their entire lives, such
                  questions as the structure and scope (or even existence) of
                  government become crucial to the long-term survival of the colony.

                  Questions about colony design and propulsion are also important. The
                  final design of any true "star-ship" will most likely be based in
                  many ways upon earlier designs tested on orbiting space colonies,
                  just as the political systems (and indeed, underlying philosophies)
                  that will accompany star ships will first be tested on those same
                  colonies.

                  Much of what we seek to do in this group is centered around finding
                  that underlying philosophy which will allow space colonies and
                  ultimately starship colonies to succeed. There is plenty of space on
                  this list for orbital colony and starship design, and I would sure
                  like to see some of our more artistic members putting up their
                  visions (hint hint Carl).

                  :) ed
                • Technotranscendence
                  On Monday, March 03, 2003 1:42 PM Ed Minchau spider_boris@yahoo.com ... I d like to see some designs too that went beyond art work. After all, it s not hard
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                    On Monday, March 03, 2003 1:42 PM Ed Minchau spider_boris@...
                    wrote:
                    > Much of what we seek to do in this group is centered
                    > around finding that underlying philosophy which will
                    > allow space colonies and ultimately starship colonies
                    > to succeed. There is plenty of space on this list for
                    > orbital colony and starship design, and I would sure
                    > like to see some of our more artistic members putting
                    > up their visions (hint hint Carl).

                    I'd like to see some designs too that went beyond art work. After all,
                    it's not hard to draw a torus or a cylinder or a dome or whatever. It's
                    much harder to come up with a viable design. However, perhaps in terms
                    of brainstorming, it would be nice to come up with all kinds of designs
                    than apply engineering and cost analyses to them so that the best
                    designs win.

                    Peace!

                    Dan
                    http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/
                  • Paul Hibbert
                    All: Just a heads up ... I caught a snippet on the Discovery Channel that a new Super Engineering show will be on their schedule soon. Sorry that I
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                      All:

                      Just a "heads up" ... I caught a snippet on the Discovery Channel that a
                      new "Super Engineering" show will be on their schedule soon. Sorry that
                      I couldn't get the times. This seems to be a futuristic look at possible
                      new projects.

                      Paul
                    • Ravenart@aol.com
                      In a message dated 3/3/03 1:44:17 PM, spider_boris@yahoo.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                        In a message dated 3/3/03 1:44:17 PM, spider_boris@... writes:

                        << Much of what we seek to do in this group is centered around finding

                        that underlying philosophy which will allow space colonies and

                        ultimately starship colonies to succeed. There is plenty of space on

                        this list for orbital colony and starship design, and I would sure

                        like to see some of our more artistic members putting up their

                        visions (hint hint Carl).


                        :) ed >>

                        Yeah yeah yeah! :)

                        Carl E. Mullin
                        visionary artist and entrepreneur
                        homo asteralis
                        <A HREF="mailto:ravenart@...">ravenart@...</A>
                        <A HREF="http://www.ravenartstudio.com">www.ravenartstudio.com</A>

                        I am for a government rigorously frugal and simple. Were we directed from
                        Washington when to sow, when to reap, we should soon want bread. - Thomas
                        Jefferson

                        Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which
                        permit this norm to be exceeded - here and there, now and then - are the work
                        of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and
                        almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny
                        minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a
                        society, the people then slip back into poverty.
                        This is known as 'bad luck.- Robert A. Heinlein

                        In a mature society, 'civil servant' is semantically equal to 'civil master'
                        - Robert A. Heinlein
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