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Mike to Alex:I would consider emotional stability under stress the single most important factor to develop in the unborn child

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  • Mike Rael
    Hi Alex:) The first thing to realize is that, at the state of the art likely to be reached in the next 20 years or more, we may be able to do *some*thing to
    Message 1 of 17 , May 1, 2002
      Hi Alex:)
      The first thing to realize is that, at the
      state of the art likely to be reached in the next
      20 years or more, we may be able to do
      *some*thing to our unborn children, but not
      *everything* we would like to do.
      The question then becomes:if you had to choose
      one quality above others that you would opt for,
      to enhance the life of your unborn child, what
      would it be?
      Personally, I would opt for emotional
      stability under stress. If a child is born with
      what is called an "easy temperament," the rest of
      the life of that child is made far easier than if
      not. Emotional stability under stress takes the
      concept of "easy temperament" much further. by
      applying it to all life situations. In
      psychology, such folks are known as
      "invulnerables."
      Invulnerables may come from broken homes, They
      may have been very rich and are later very poor.
      Their health may be good or bad. However,
      notwithstanding all the hard knocks that reality
      can throw at them, they have a strong
      psychological center. They may be thrown on the
      desert, yet quickly learn how to dredge water
      from a cactus plant. In seemingly crazy
      situations, they somehow sense the one way they
      could get nourishment from those situations, and
      they thrive. If invulnerables were sufficiently
      numerous, undoubtedly they would attain the key
      positions in society in virtually all the
      important areas. However, they are considered
      quite rare. If one could enhance the genetic
      potential of one's child in that direction, it
      would, other things being equal (such as having
      average or greater than average health and
      intelligence) be the greatest single contribution
      to their lives.

      best always,
      Mike

      Mike Rael, MA
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/writeyourselfthin/
      --- Alex Matthew <alex_fish11@...> wrote:
      > Hey Dan,
      >
      > Great thought experiment!
      >
      > As much as having a genius child that easily
      > appeals to me, and probably
      > many others, one needs to take into
      > consideration that the experiments on
      > animals is done so in many cases based on the
      > ~assumption~ of some
      > similarity between humans and animals.
      >
      > The assumption is really too risky to base such
      > a commitment on. And for
      > anyone who has read _Flowers for Algernon_
      > (either the short story or novel,
      > it doesn't matter that much), one can really be
      > suspicious of the long term
      > effects.
      >
      > My answer could be a number of options. I could
      > wait for the long term
      > study's results on our "Doogie" mouse, which
      > would be a rational choice, but
      > this wouldn't be the most rational choice in my
      > opinion. I would love to
      > have the perfect child (or genius child, same
      > thing in my opinion), but it
      > could be very risky. I'd feel more confident in
      > seeing the results on a
      > chimpanzee (if they were positive of course),
      > and that would include the
      > long term results. Of course time would become
      > a factor, but making
      > decisions based on unstable or unknown
      > assumptions could end in disaster.
      >
      > But in the end, I would definitely consider it.
      > Anyone else?
      >
      > Batman
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Alex Matthew
      Hi Mike, I ve never considered emotional stability... that s interesting. However, the concept of genius itself is rather general, referring to many things
      Message 2 of 17 , May 1, 2002
        Hi Mike,

        I've never considered emotional stability... that's interesting.
        However, the concept of genius itself is rather general, referring to many
        things depending on which professional you're speaking with.
        For example, many professionals (from what I hear) subscribe to Gardener's
        theory of 'multiple geniuses', which, as I'm sure you know, has eight
        different forms (for those unfamiliar, the types of genius Gardener has
        identified are linguistic, mathematical-logical, spatial, musical,
        kinesthetic, intrapersonal, interpersonal, and natural).

        On the other hand, some psychologists such as Sternberg, suggest a different
        concept of genius (Sternberg's being a kind of triarchic level of... stuff.
        I couldn't explain it here without having his material right in front of me.
        It's hard for me to understand). And then there are others who suggest that
        'genius' doesn't really exist (I couldn't name any. Mike, do you have any
        idea?), but I'm assuming these are just a bunch of egalitarian/bleeding
        heart wussies crying out against inequality.

        So, my question is, could these rare emotionally stable individuals that you
        refer to be geniuses themselves? I mean, the textbook definition or general
        belief of what a genius is is based on their IQ, and the level of genius
        falls in the less than 3% of the population (or is it less than 3? Maybe
        it's 0.3%... I can't remember). I mean, people with schizophrenia are not a
        great percentage of the population either, so rarity would not define
        genius, however, the emotionally stable individual seems to be "gifted", and
        as you say, rare at the same time. Could they not be considered geniuses for
        this reason?

        And then again, your answer would depend on your concept of 'genius'.

        But in some of your examples in helping me understand the importance of
        emotional stability, you're only showing the intelligence of the person. For
        example, the one who gets stranded in the desert: it takes intelligence to
        know of the contents of a cactus and to make use of it, but it takes
        emotional stability to not freak-right-the-hell out of it and deal with the
        situation with a panic attack. What's your ideas on this?

        Stuff.

        Alex


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      • Mike Rael
        Hi Alex:) Conventionally, genius refers to the highest level of abstraction of which an individual is capable. By that standard, the emotionally stable are
        Message 3 of 17 , May 2, 2002
          Hi Alex:)
          Conventionally, "genius" refers to the highest
          level of abstraction of which an individual is
          capable.
          By that standard, the emotionally stable are
          not geniuses, though they behave with
          extraordinary resource in the face of all kinds
          of stressors, the same kinds that often send
          geniuses into fits of depression and passivity.
          I guess you'd say that "emotional stability"
          is a form of emotional intelligence that allows
          folks to use their highest levels of conceptual
          intelligence in all kinds of stressful
          situations.
          On a personal note, I only wish that emotional
          stability were a dominant part of my personality.
          I was born extraoridinarily gifted in a number of
          areas, but my emotional intelligence was way down
          for most of my life, rendering me highly
          vulnerable to parental or job stressors.
          What is your take on this in the personal
          arena, Alex (without getting superpersonal in
          this forum, of course)?

          best wishes,
          Mike
          --- Alex Matthew <alex_fish11@...> wrote:
          ...
          however, the emotionally stable
          > individual seems to be "gifted", and
          > as you say, rare at the same time. Could they
          > not be considered geniuses for
          > this reason?
          >
          > And then again, your answer would depend on
          > your concept of 'genius'.
          >
          > But in some of your examples in helping me
          > understand the importance of
          > emotional stability, you're only showing the
          > intelligence of the person. For
          > example, the one who gets stranded in the
          > desert: it takes intelligence to
          > know of the contents of a cactus and to make
          > use of it, but it takes
          > emotional stability to not freak-right-the-hell
          > out of it and deal with the
          > situation with a panic attack. What's your
          > ideas on this?


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        • Alex Matthew
          Mike, What exactly is abstract thinking? I ve always considered it to be the capacity for one to consider as many possible solutions and outcomes in the face
          Message 4 of 17 , May 2, 2002
            Mike,

            What exactly is "abstract" thinking? I've always considered it to be the
            capacity for one to consider as many possible solutions and outcomes in the
            face of problems of all sorts. But maybe this is wrong because my definition
            would sound more to fall under the emotionally stable individual than that
            of the genius.

            Your statement about how geniuses tend to be emotionally unstable would seem
            to support a common belief that genius is just the next step before insanity
            :). Of course it wouldn't be really accurate to describe genius as some kind
            of step.

            On a not-so-personal-but-personal (yuck) note, I wasn't born with any great
            gifts or anything except for maybe an ability to draw cartoons, but I don't
            really do that anymore. I tend to have mood swings back and forth within a
            day, but I don't see it as a problem really. Last summer I think I was
            depressed when I was doing training in some hell-hole known as Wainwright. I
            thought I didn't care about anything, but I know that wasn't the case
            because if it were, there's absolutley no way I would have made it the way I
            did. I like to think that there is always too much to do and that getting
            depressed would just get in the way of getting things done (so I guess
            depression is kind of like sleep or I at least think of the two in the same
            way).

            If you don't mind me asking, in what areas are you gifted in?

            Alex




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          • Mike Rael
            Hi Alex:) ... It s about the level of abstraction possible, Alex. Imagine a person who thinks about nothing much except making a living selling shoes. He
            Message 5 of 17 , May 2, 2002
              Hi Alex:)
              --- Alex Matthew <alex_fish11@...> wrote:
              > Mike,
              >
              > What exactly is "abstract" thinking? I've
              > always considered it to be the
              > capacity for one to consider as many possible
              > solutions and outcomes in the
              > face of problems of all sorts. But maybe this
              > is wrong because my definition
              > would sound more to fall under the emotionally
              > stable individual than that
              > of the genius.
              >
              It's about the level of abstraction possible,
              Alex. Imagine a person who thinks about nothing
              much except making a living selling shoes. He
              doesn't inquire into the nature of shoes nor of
              his customers. He just knows that by being at a
              certain place at a certain time and making the
              right noises, he will get enough money to pay for
              food, rent, and clothing.

              Every now and then, though, he comes out with
              insightful comments about the human condition. We
              would rate his intelligence, not on the basis of
              what he does regularly, but rather on the basis
              of the *most* or the *deepest* he has gone.


              > Your statement about how geniuses tend to be
              > emotionally unstable would seem
              > to support a common belief that genius is just
              > the next step before insanity
              > :). Of course it wouldn't be really accurate to
              > describe genius as some kind
              > of step.
              >
              Geniuse be emotionally unstable? I don't recall
              making that point, Alex. Geniuses are not merely
              very bright. Rather they have sufficient courage
              to test their thinking even when they are the
              lonely pioneers in a field. Reality is what
              proves their genius abilities, not tests at
              school or occasional super-insightful comments.
              Geniuses tend to have sufficient emotional
              stability so that their abilities in the
              particular areas of their own natural gifts get
              expressed to a great extent in the face of the
              stress of competition and of aloneness.

              Many geniuses, however (not all) have emotional
              problems relating to family or to love,
              suggesting that they could have used the greater
              emotional stability of the "invulnerable" to lead
              happier or more productive lives.
              > On a not-so-personal-but-personal (yuck) note,
              > I wasn't born with any great
              > gifts or anything except for maybe an ability
              > to draw cartoons, but I don't
              > really do that anymore. I tend to have mood
              > swings back and forth within a
              > day, but I don't see it as a problem really.
              > Last summer I think I was
              > depressed when I was doing training in some
              > hell-hole known as Wainwright. I
              > thought I didn't care about anything, but I
              > know that wasn't the case
              > because if it were, there's absolutley no way I
              > would have made it the way I
              > did. I like to think that there is always too
              > much to do and that getting
              > depressed would just get in the way of getting
              > things done (so I guess
              > depression is kind of like sleep or I at least
              > think of the two in the same
              > way).
              What do you train for, Alex?


              >
              > If you don't mind me asking, in what areas are
              > you gifted in?
              >
              Acting, public speaking, musical improvisation
              (piano, accordion), poetry, writing, math,
              psychology, philosophy.

              best wishes,
              Mike

              > Alex
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              _________________________________________________________________
              > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
              > http://messenger.msn.com
              >
              >


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            • spike
              ... I realize I ve already stuck my nose in here WAY further than I ve to date earned any right to...but after this one more observation I ll stay outta your
              Message 6 of 17 , May 2, 2002
                --- Mike Rael <moochy_hope@...> wrote:
                > Geniuse be emotionally unstable? I don't recall
                > making that point, Alex. Geniuses are not
                > merely
                > very bright. Rather they have sufficient
                > courage
                > to test their thinking even when they are the
                > lonely pioneers in a field.

                I realize I've already stuck my nose in here WAY
                further than I've to date earned any right
                to...but after this one more observation I'll
                stay outta your hair for at least a week (I
                promise :)).

                Over at ORION,
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ORION_Initiative
                we've found that Success -- as the world, and
                evidently this poster, defines it -- is NOT AT
                ALL NECESSARILY correlated with g.

                High-g persons are notorious for defining
                "success" in their own terms. Are you
                "successful" if you can afford to breed and
                educate half-a-dozen Intentional Superkids BUT
                CHOOSE NOT TO, instead devoting your
                psychological and material resources to
                temporal goals (like "making Partner" at your law
                firm)? Or are you "successful" if you rabbit away
                at an intellectually unchallenging, socially
                low-status job 40/50/60 hours a week so you can
                devote your true energies to breeding and
                educating high-g offspring -- even if you have to
                do it "on the wrong side of the tracks"?

                Cool questions, IMO.
                Anybody here got any cool answers?

                -- spike
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ORION_initaitve
                ~ launching an off-Earth future since 1996 ~


                =====
                "If you want to build a ship, don't
                drum up men to gather wood, divide
                the work and give orders. Instead,
                teach them to yearn for the vast
                and endless sea."
                -- Antoine de St. Exupery

                __________________________________________________
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              • spike
                At ORION, where the admission threshold is IQ=130 and most members are 150+, we ve found -- much to the surprise of everyone there who knew it applied to
                Message 7 of 17 , May 2, 2002
                  At ORION, where the admission threshold is IQ=130
                  and most members are 150+, we've found -- much to
                  the surprise of everyone there who knew it
                  applied to themselves, but also thought that made
                  them "weird" -- that among those folks who
                  qualify on g[/"IQ"] alone, the most
                  creative/productive recruits FOR THIS PROJECT AS
                  A WHOLE are those individuals formally identified
                  as "gifties," who ALSO exhibit one or more of the
                  following "psychiatric" "handicaps" :

                  * What the shinks call an "affective disorder"
                  (depression, anxiety/panic, bipolar)

                  * What the shrinks call "ADD/ADHD"

                  * A predisposition to biochemical addiction --
                  most markedly, in those individuals who actively
                  succumbed to a "habit" for some significant
                  period of time, then "kicked it" with or without
                  formal support.

                  Dunno what, if anything, this means to y'all.
                  Chicken, egg, lizard...? ;) I could go on about
                  it for WEEKS...but thank
                  {insert-your-Higher-Power-HERE] I won't :P

                  Toward ORION! -- spike
                  htp://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/ORION_Initiative
                  ~ launching an off-Earth fuutre since 1996 ~

                  =====
                  "If you want to build a ship, don't
                  drum up men to gather wood, divide
                  the work and give orders. Instead,
                  teach them to yearn for the vast
                  and endless sea."
                  -- Antoine de St. Exupery

                  __________________________________________________
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                  Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
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                • Jeffrey Geiger
                  Spike - I really dislike the fact that each of your posts is laced with advertisements for your own group. It makes me feel that you have joined our group
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 2, 2002
                    Spike -

                    I really dislike the fact that each of your posts is
                    laced with advertisements for your own group. It makes
                    me feel that you have joined our group merely for the
                    sake of advertising yours. Is that your intention?

                    In any case, I would appreciate it if you cut down on
                    stating that "over at Orion we find..." and instead
                    stated what you think and feel as one lone member of
                    this forum.

                    best,
                    Jeffrey


                    --- spike <original_spikegrrl@...> wrote:
                    <snip>

                    > Over at ORION,
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ORION_Initiative
                    > we've found that Success -- as the world, and
                    > evidently this poster, defines it -- is NOT AT
                    > ALL NECESSARILY correlated with g.
                    >
                    > High-g persons are notorious for defining
                    > "success" in their own terms. Are you
                    > "successful" if you can afford to breed and
                    > educate half-a-dozen Intentional Superkids BUT
                    > CHOOSE NOT TO, instead devoting your
                    > psychological and material resources to
                    > temporal goals (like "making Partner" at your law
                    > firm)? Or are you "successful" if you rabbit away
                    > at an intellectually unchallenging, socially
                    > low-status job 40/50/60 hours a week so you can
                    > devote your true energies to breeding and
                    > educating high-g offspring -- even if you have to
                    > do it "on the wrong side of the tracks"?
                    >
                    > Cool questions, IMO.


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                  • Mike Rael
                    Hi Spike:) How can an ordinary person boost their IQ? At Orion do you those the conventional Stanford/Binet test for IQ? Are their ways someone aging can boost
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 2, 2002
                      Hi Spike:)
                      How can an ordinary person boost their IQ? At
                      Orion do you those the conventional
                      Stanford/Binet test for IQ? Are their ways
                      someone aging can boost their IQ that you or
                      Orion could teach us?
                      Give us specifics to help us, guy.
                      Cut out the general ads. Stop the spam!

                      best wishes,
                      Mike

                      Mike Rael, MA
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/writeyourselfthin/
                      --- spike <original_spikegrrl@...> wrote:
                      > At ORION, where the admission threshold is
                      > IQ=130
                      > and most members are 150+, we've found -- much
                      > to
                      > the surprise of everyone there who knew it
                      > applied to themselves, but also thought that
                      > made
                      > them "weird" -- that among those folks who
                      > qualify on g[/"IQ"] alone, the most
                      > creative/productive recruits FOR THIS PROJECT
                      > AS
                      > A WHOLE are those individuals formally
                      > identified
                      > as "gifties," who ALSO exhibit one or more of
                      > the
                      > following "psychiatric" "handicaps" :
                      >
                      > * What the shinks call an "affective disorder"
                      > (depression, anxiety/panic, bipolar)
                      >
                      > * What the shrinks call "ADD/ADHD"
                      >
                      > * A predisposition to biochemical addiction --
                      > most markedly, in those individuals who
                      > actively
                      > succumbed to a "habit" for some significant
                      > period of time, then "kicked it" with or
                      > without
                      > formal support.
                      >
                      > Dunno what, if anything, this means to y'all.
                      > Chicken, egg, lizard...? ;) I could go on about
                      > it for WEEKS...but thank
                      > {insert-your-Higher-Power-HERE] I won't :P
                      >
                      > Toward ORION! -- spike
                      >
                      htp://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/ORION_Initiative
                      > ~ launching an off-Earth fuutre since 1996 ~
                      >
                      > =====
                      > "If you want to build a ship, don't
                      > drum up men to gather wood, divide
                      > the work and give orders. Instead,
                      > teach them to yearn for the vast
                      > and endless sea."
                      > -- Antoine de St. Exupery
                      >
                      >
                      __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and
                      > wellness
                      > http://health.yahoo.com
                      >


                      __________________________________________________
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                      Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
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                    • Mike Rael
                      Spike, The problem isn t that you like to post here. The problem is that in your posts, you don t address anything specific so far, and always end your posts
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 2, 2002
                        Spike,
                        The problem isn't that you like to post here.
                        The problem is that in your posts, you don't
                        address anything specific so far, and always end
                        your posts with that detestable ad for Orion.
                        I suggest:forget about making that ad at all!
                        Have the Orion web page as part of your
                        signature. Let people be attracted to Orion by
                        what you have to say to them, not by an ad.

                        best wishes,
                        Mike

                        Mike Rael, MA
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/writeyourselfthin/
                        --- spike <original_spikegrrl@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- Mike Rael <moochy_hope@...> wrote:
                        > > Geniuse be emotionally unstable? I don't
                        > recall
                        > > making that point, Alex. Geniuses are not
                        > > merely
                        > > very bright. Rather they have sufficient
                        > > courage
                        > > to test their thinking even when they are the
                        > > lonely pioneers in a field.
                        >
                        > I realize I've already stuck my nose in here
                        > WAY
                        > further than I've to date earned any right
                        > to...but after this one more observation I'll
                        > stay outta your hair for at least a week (I
                        > promise :)).
                        >
                        > Over at ORION,
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ORION_Initiative
                        > we've found that Success -- as the world, and
                        > evidently this poster, defines it -- is NOT AT
                        > ALL NECESSARILY correlated with g.
                        >
                        > High-g persons are notorious for defining
                        > "success" in their own terms. Are you
                        > "successful" if you can afford to breed and
                        > educate half-a-dozen Intentional Superkids BUT
                        > CHOOSE NOT TO, instead devoting your
                        > psychological and material resources to
                        > temporal goals (like "making Partner" at your
                        > law
                        > firm)? Or are you "successful" if you rabbit
                        > away
                        > at an intellectually unchallenging, socially
                        > low-status job 40/50/60 hours a week so you can
                        > devote your true energies to breeding and
                        > educating high-g offspring -- even if you have
                        > to
                        > do it "on the wrong side of the tracks"?
                        >
                        > Cool questions, IMO.
                        > Anybody here got any cool answers?
                        >
                        > -- spike
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ORION_initaitve
                        > ~ launching an off-Earth future since 1996 ~
                        >
                        >
                        > =====
                        > "If you want to build a ship, don't
                        > drum up men to gather wood, divide
                        > the work and give orders. Instead,
                        > teach them to yearn for the vast
                        > and endless sea."
                        > -- Antoine de St. Exupery
                        >
                        >
                        __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and
                        > wellness
                        > http://health.yahoo.com
                        >


                        __________________________________________________
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                        Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
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                      • spike
                        ... Good morning, Mike :) ... To my knowledge, it can t be done. ... If I m reading your question right(?): Our members have had their IQs tested where anyone
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 3, 2002
                          --- Mike Rael <moochy_hope@...> wrote:
                          > Hi Spike:)

                          Good morning, Mike :)

                          > How can an ordinary person boost their IQ?

                          To my knowledge, it can't be done.

                          > At Orion do you those the conventional
                          > Stanford/Binet test for IQ?

                          If I'm reading your question right(?): Our
                          members have had their IQs tested where anyone
                          else does: via employers, armed
                          services/college/grad school admissions tests,
                          private-pay professional testing services,
                          research studies, etc.

                          > Are their ways
                          > someone aging can boost their IQ that you or
                          > Orion could teach us?

                          Longevity ain't our particular bag.
                          You might want to check out the Yahoo Group
                          "Fountain Society" on this subject -- if they're
                          still around. Moderator William O'Rights is not
                          only a memorable "character", but also a
                          real-life tax-refusal hero, and I for one am
                          proud to know him :)
                          http://grouops.yahoo.com.group/fountain_society

                          > Give us specifics to help us, guy.

                          I'm no guy :)
                          And I have no desire to "help you."

                          > Cut out the general ads. Stop the spam!

                          Are you the owner/moderator of this list? If so,
                          I will surely accede to your wishes.

                          But if you DON'T carry the big stick here,
                          .....errrr, "guy," that may just be the strangest
                          take on both "general" and "ad" I've think I've
                          ever heard.

                          I'm simply informing the membership here that if
                          anyone's interested in supporting/promoting a
                          high-IQ eugenics colony in space within our
                          grandchildren's lifetimes, there's a group where
                          they can come do that, and by the way here's the
                          address for it.

                          Representatives of other "space groups" come to
                          ORION allatime to let us know they're out there,
                          and what they're all about; we're grateful for
                          the info, and invariably at least a few of our
                          members find the announcing group interesting
                          enuf to sign up on the spot.

                          If you, PERSONALLY, are not interersted in
                          reading in THIS group about other related groups,
                          "guy," just hit Delete and move on!
                          Unless, of course, you're the owner/moderator --
                          in which case you have every right to throw me
                          out -- with NO HARD FEELINGS! -- for having had
                          the temerity to suggest that some of your members
                          might, just MIGHT, wish to belong to more than
                          one mailing list. Okay? :)

                          Toward ORION! -- spike
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ORION_Initiative
                          ~ launching an off-Earth future since 1996 ~


                          =====
                          "If you want to build a ship, don't
                          drum up men to gather wood, divide
                          the work and give orders. Instead,
                          teach them to yearn for the vast
                          and endless sea."
                          -- Antoine de St. Exupery

                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
                          http://health.yahoo.com
                        • spike
                          ... Okay :) One vote s a crank, two are a consensus. I must be the only person here who LIKES to learn about new opportunities to associate with likeminded
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 3, 2002
                            --- Jeffrey Geiger <god_complex_2000@...>
                            wrote:
                            > Spike -
                            >
                            > I really dislike the fact that each of your
                            > posts is
                            > laced with advertisements for your own group.

                            Okay :)

                            One vote's a crank, two are a consensus.

                            I must be the only person here who LIKES to learn
                            about new opportunities to associate with
                            likeminded others. Hell's bells, I joined up here
                            in the first place precisely BECAUSE you were so
                            highly recommended ON ANOTHER LIST!

                            (in fact, it was that list I'm not supposed to
                            mention....errr, nevermind)

                            In any case, I AM TRULY SORRY for having offended
                            ANYONE here. I have never encountered such an
                            attitude before, so of course I wasn't looking to
                            position my posts to it. Live and learn, neh?

                            Unsubscribing now, with yet another sincere
                            apology to ALL --
                            -- the nameless one, from the nameless place ;)


                            =====
                            "If you want to build a ship, don't
                            drum up men to gather wood, divide
                            the work and give orders. Instead,
                            teach them to yearn for the vast
                            and endless sea."
                            -- Antoine de St. Exupery

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
                            http://health.yahoo.com
                          • Mike Rael
                            Hi again Spike:) ... Win Wenger claims to have done just that, along with Paul Scheele. ... What *kinds* of tests are used? There are different kinds, I
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 3, 2002
                              Hi again Spike:)
                              --- spike <original_spikegrrl@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- Mike Rael <moochy_hope@...> wrote:
                              > > Hi Spike:)
                              >
                              > Good morning, Mike :)
                              >
                              > > How can an ordinary person boost their IQ?
                              >
                              > To my knowledge, it can't be done.
                              >
                              Win Wenger claims to have done just that, along
                              with Paul Scheele.


                              > > At Orion do you those the conventional
                              > > Stanford/Binet test for IQ?
                              >
                              > If I'm reading your question right(?): Our
                              > members have had their IQs tested where anyone
                              > else does: via employers, armed
                              > services/college/grad school admissions tests,
                              > private-pay professional testing services,
                              > research studies, etc.
                              >
                              What *kinds* of tests are used? There are
                              different kinds, I understand. If you just accept
                              what others do, OK.


                              > > Are their ways
                              > > someone aging can boost their IQ that you or
                              > > Orion could teach us?
                              >
                              > Longevity ain't our particular bag.
                              > You might want to check out the Yahoo Group
                              > "Fountain Society" on this subject -- if
                              > they're
                              > still around. Moderator William O'Rights is not
                              > only a memorable "character", but also a
                              > real-life tax-refusal hero, and I for one am
                              > proud to know him :)
                              > http://grouops.yahoo.com.group/fountain_society
                              >
                              OK, but my point is: to talk about something
                              specific other than the Glory of Orion.



                              > > Give us specifics to help us, guy.
                              >
                              > I'm no guy :)
                              > And I have no desire to "help you."
                              >
                              Got that.


                              > > Cut out the general ads. Stop the spam!
                              >
                              > Are you the owner/moderator of this list? If
                              > so,
                              > I will surely accede to your wishes.
                              >
                              Nope. This group is regulated by the individual
                              members, generally, and I am one of them, as are
                              you.

                              Spam is generally unacceptable, no matter which
                              group you join. If you haven't found that to be
                              the case, I am amazed. I have been warned off
                              groups just because I have my 2-line tag to my
                              signature!


                              > But if you DON'T carry the big stick here,
                              > .....errrr, "guy," that may just be the
                              > strangest
                              > take on both "general" and "ad" I've think I've
                              > ever heard.
                              >
                              Again, our experiences must be very different.
                              Does anyone else here have any relevant
                              experience?

                              ...
                              > I'm simply informing the membership here that
                              > if
                              > anyone's interested in supporting/promoting a
                              > high-IQ eugenics colony in space within our
                              > grandchildren's lifetimes, there's a group
                              > where
                              > they can come do that, and by the way here's
                              > the
                              > address for it.
                              ...

                              Mike

                              Mike Rael, MA
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/writeyourselfthin/



                              __________________________________________________
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                              Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
                              http://health.yahoo.com
                            • spider_boris
                              ... I would suggest that you gain brainpower the same way you gain musclepower: exercise. Do crossword puzzles. check out the mathematical games section of
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 4, 2002
                                --- In Starship_Forum@y..., Mike Rael <moochy_hope@y...> wrote:
                                > Hi Spike:)
                                > How can an ordinary person boost their IQ?

                                I would suggest that you gain brainpower the same way you gain
                                musclepower: exercise. Do crossword puzzles. check out
                                the "mathematical games" section of Scientific American. Talk to
                                smart people. Play chess, Go, bridge, or Trivial Pursuit. Change
                                the TV channel from Springer to Koppel. Or better yet, throw the
                                damn TV out altogether!

                                > Cut out the general ads. Stop the spam!

                                <rant>

                                I gotta jump in here; my inbox is filling up. I read some of the
                                posts that spike wrote here, and sure, she is excited about her pet
                                project. Nothing wrong with that. I can also see how a few people
                                viewed what she wrote as spam. Hey, if you think it's spam, go ahead
                                and say so, nothing wrong with that either.

                                Upon viewing what she wrote in a half-dozen or so posts, however, and
                                having known her for almost a year, I think I can shed some light on
                                where it is that she is coming from. Her group (of which I am also a
                                member) intends to build more than just an orbital habitat; they seek
                                to build a multigenerational, true space _colony_. Recognizing that
                                any space colony worth the name will be a de facto eugenics
                                experiment, it makes sense to start with the gene pool which will
                                have the greatest chance of long-term survival. It further makes
                                sense to establish as the main criterion the one trait which makes
                                humanity so successful on earth; to wit, intelligence.

                                Having said that, one must realize that as the founder of that group,
                                spike spends quite a bit of time spreading the word. When I told her
                                of the Starship_Forum group, and specifically of Monart's idea that
                                the obstacles to space exploitation/colonization are not
                                technological or political, but rather philosophical, I think it took
                                her all of two minutes to sign up here - you guys are like catnip to
                                her. All those brainy people...and objectivists to boot.

                                I bring all this up not because I agree or disagree with the
                                categorization of what she wrote as "spam"; only to bring my
                                perspective to the issue. If you want to check out her group, fine;
                                if not, also fine. But please, please, let my poor inbox rest a
                                little; I am a member of over a dozen yahoogroups, and prefer to go
                                web-only on them, to keep my inbox from filling up daily :)

                                </rant>

                                :) ed
                              • spider_boris
                                ... I should clarify this a little bit. I do *not* mind receiving emails from people I meet on these lists; I just don t want half a dozen people each sending
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 5, 2002
                                  --- In Starship_Forum@y..., "spider_boris" <spider_boris@y...> wrote:
                                  > if not, also fine. But please, please, let my poor inbox rest a
                                  > little; I am a member of over a dozen yahoogroups, and prefer to go
                                  > web-only on them, to keep my inbox from filling up daily :)
                                  >
                                  > </rant>
                                  >

                                  I should clarify this a little bit. I do *not* mind receiving emails
                                  from people I meet on these lists; I just don't want half a dozen
                                  people each sending me copies of the same things I can read in the
                                  groups. I may not write into the groups very much, but I do try to
                                  read everything I can.

                                  Trying to be a little less of a GrumpButt,

                                  :) ed
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