Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus

Expand Messages
  • Stefan Melber
    Hi Nick, on the upper side you MUST use a turbulator, because the type of airfoil used on the Std. Cirrus produces a long and thick laminar separation bubble
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 18, 2005
      Hi Nick,

      on the upper side you MUST use a turbulator, because the type of airfoil
      used on the Std. Cirrus produces a long and thick laminar separation
      bubble (compare figure 4 in
      http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf) . The
      addional drag of this bubble is much higher than the addinal drag of an
      turbulator tape. Especially the cross country speed of an Cirrus is not
      so high, this turbulator-drag becomes not critical flying from thermal
      to thermal. One problem is the correct location of the tape: Because the
      position of the bubble is varring around the thickest point of the
      arfoil from Vmin to Vmax of the glider you must find your optimum. If
      the tape is to much in front, getting addidional drag flying at high
      speed and good results at low speed and vice versa.

      On the lower side, the bubble is not so big and especially the movement
      of the bubble is from the leading to the trailing edge (Vmin to Vmax), i
      would not suggest to put a turbulator there, because it will work with a
      small reduced drag at one point of the polar but much more addidional
      drag at the rest ...

      Stefan


      >I have had a conversation with Christian Streifeneder (www.streifly.de)
      >about this topic. Christian & his father Hansjorg are the world Glasflugel
      >experts. With regard to the Libelle (similar era, similar wing profile) he
      >feels that there is no point turbulating the underside, but there is
      >probably a case for turbulating the top surface.
      >
      >Nick.
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: "Chris Davison" <k6pilot@...>
      >To: <StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:08 AM
      >Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >>Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator tape? I
      >>have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't work out
      >>what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a difference?
      >>
      >>BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much quieter
      >>now.
      >>
      >>Thankis
      >>Chris
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>www.standardcirrus.org
      >>
      >>Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >www.standardcirrus.org
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Chris Davison
      So does anyone fly with top surface turbulator tape and if so what is the best position?....I am guessing that because I have never seen a glider with top
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 18, 2005
        So does anyone fly with top surface turbulator tape and if so what is the
        best position?....I am guessing that because I have never seen a glider with
        top surface tape, that in practice the benefits are negligible or the issue
        of change of position of bubble vs speed of glider is just too difficult to
        overcome?

        Cheers
        Chris
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
        Sent: 19 March 2005 05:52
        To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


        Hi Nick,

        on the upper side you MUST use a turbulator, because the type of airfoil
        used on the Std. Cirrus produces a long and thick laminar separation
        bubble (compare figure 4 in
        http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf) . The
        addional drag of this bubble is much higher than the addinal drag of an
        turbulator tape. Especially the cross country speed of an Cirrus is not
        so high, this turbulator-drag becomes not critical flying from thermal
        to thermal. One problem is the correct location of the tape: Because the
        position of the bubble is varring around the thickest point of the
        arfoil from Vmin to Vmax of the glider you must find your optimum. If
        the tape is to much in front, getting addidional drag flying at high
        speed and good results at low speed and vice versa.

        On the lower side, the bubble is not so big and especially the movement
        of the bubble is from the leading to the trailing edge (Vmin to Vmax), i
        would not suggest to put a turbulator there, because it will work with a
        small reduced drag at one point of the polar but much more addidional
        drag at the rest ...

        Stefan


        >I have had a conversation with Christian Streifeneder (www.streifly.de)
        >about this topic. Christian & his father Hansjorg are the world
        Glasflugel
        >experts. With regard to the Libelle (similar era, similar wing profile)
        he
        >feels that there is no point turbulating the underside, but there is
        >probably a case for turbulating the top surface.
        >
        >Nick.
        >----- Original Message -----
        >From: "Chris Davison" <k6pilot@...>
        >To: <StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com>
        >Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:08 AM
        >Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >>Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator tape?
        I
        >>have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't work
        out
        >>what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a difference?
        >>
        >>BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much quieter
        >>now.
        >>
        >>Thankis
        >>Chris
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>www.standardcirrus.org
        >>
        >>Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >www.standardcirrus.org
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >



        www.standardcirrus.org



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        ADVERTISEMENT





        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        --
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Stefan Melber
        Hi Chris, numerical simulations can give a good estimation for a turbulator position. Use the location of the laminar bubble on the upper side at cross coutry
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 19, 2005
          Hi Chris,

          numerical simulations can give a good estimation for a turbulator
          position. Use the location of the laminar bubble on the upper side at
          cross coutry speed (V=100 - 130 km/h), go a bit in direction of leading
          edge (1-3 cm) and put the tape there. In
          http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf, figure 3
          you can find this position for a Std. Cirrus with 0.75 degree
          geometrical shaped wing. I cannot give you at the moment a verification
          of the numerical results with oil-flow pictures nor a measurement of the
          differences, because my Cirrus is still under construction, but
          hopefully at the end of this summer if will have this data and put it on
          Jim page. The benefits for an Cirrus with turbulator should be in the
          area of about 0.5 - 2 glide ratio points (big bubble - big effect ;-) )

          Jim has also made measurements an oil-flow pictures to get the position
          of the bubble - just check his page ...

          Best regards,

          Stefan

          >So does anyone fly with top surface turbulator tape and if so what is the
          >best position?....I am guessing that because I have never seen a glider with
          >top surface tape, that in practice the benefits are negligible or the issue
          >of change of position of bubble vs speed of glider is just too difficult to
          >overcome?
          >
          >Cheers
          >Chris
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
          > Sent: 19 March 2005 05:52
          > To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
          >
          >
          > Hi Nick,
          >
          > on the upper side you MUST use a turbulator, because the type of airfoil
          > used on the Std. Cirrus produces a long and thick laminar separation
          > bubble (compare figure 4 in
          > http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf) . The
          > addional drag of this bubble is much higher than the addinal drag of an
          > turbulator tape. Especially the cross country speed of an Cirrus is not
          > so high, this turbulator-drag becomes not critical flying from thermal
          > to thermal. One problem is the correct location of the tape: Because the
          > position of the bubble is varring around the thickest point of the
          > arfoil from Vmin to Vmax of the glider you must find your optimum. If
          > the tape is to much in front, getting addidional drag flying at high
          > speed and good results at low speed and vice versa.
          >
          > On the lower side, the bubble is not so big and especially the movement
          > of the bubble is from the leading to the trailing edge (Vmin to Vmax), i
          > would not suggest to put a turbulator there, because it will work with a
          > small reduced drag at one point of the polar but much more addidional
          > drag at the rest ...
          >
          > Stefan
          >
          >
          > >I have had a conversation with Christian Streifeneder (www.streifly.de)
          > >about this topic. Christian & his father Hansjorg are the world
          >Glasflugel
          > >experts. With regard to the Libelle (similar era, similar wing profile)
          >he
          > >feels that there is no point turbulating the underside, but there is
          > >probably a case for turbulating the top surface.
          > >
          > >Nick.
          > >----- Original Message -----
          > >From: "Chris Davison" <k6pilot@...>
          > >To: <StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com>
          > >Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:08 AM
          > >Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >>Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator tape?
          >I
          > >>have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't work
          >out
          > >>what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a difference?
          > >>
          > >>BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much quieter
          > >>now.
          > >>
          > >>Thankis
          > >>Chris
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>www.standardcirrus.org
          > >>
          > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >www.standardcirrus.org
          > >
          > >Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > www.standardcirrus.org
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > ADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >--
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >www.standardcirrus.org
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Chris Davison
          Stefan, thanks. How would the change in wing twist of a Cirrus 75 affect the theoretical poition of the top turbulator? Could it be that the change in
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 19, 2005
            Stefan, thanks. How would the change in wing twist of a Cirrus 75 affect
            the theoretical poition of the top turbulator? Could it be that the
            change in wing twist and (supposed) better peformance of the 75 model is
            down to a reduced bubble, and hence the need for top surface tape is
            lessened?

            Chris
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
            Sent: 19 March 2005 08:01
            To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


            Hi Chris,

            numerical simulations can give a good estimation for a turbulator
            position. Use the location of the laminar bubble on the upper side at
            cross coutry speed (V=100 - 130 km/h), go a bit in direction of leading
            edge (1-3 cm) and put the tape there. In
            http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf, figure 3
            you can find this position for a Std. Cirrus with 0.75 degree
            geometrical shaped wing. I cannot give you at the moment a verification
            of the numerical results with oil-flow pictures nor a measurement of the
            differences, because my Cirrus is still under construction, but
            hopefully at the end of this summer if will have this data and put it on
            Jim page. The benefits for an Cirrus with turbulator should be in the
            area of about 0.5 - 2 glide ratio points (big bubble - big effect ;-) )

            Jim has also made measurements an oil-flow pictures to get the position
            of the bubble - just check his page ...

            Best regards,

            Stefan

            >So does anyone fly with top surface turbulator tape and if so what is the
            >best position?....I am guessing that because I have never seen a glider
            with
            >top surface tape, that in practice the benefits are negligible or the
            issue
            >of change of position of bubble vs speed of glider is just too difficult
            to
            >overcome?
            >
            >Cheers
            >Chris
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
            > Sent: 19 March 2005 05:52
            > To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
            >
            >
            > Hi Nick,
            >
            > on the upper side you MUST use a turbulator, because the type of
            airfoil
            > used on the Std. Cirrus produces a long and thick laminar separation
            > bubble (compare figure 4 in
            > http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf) . The
            > addional drag of this bubble is much higher than the addinal drag of an
            > turbulator tape. Especially the cross country speed of an Cirrus is not
            > so high, this turbulator-drag becomes not critical flying from thermal
            > to thermal. One problem is the correct location of the tape: Because
            the
            > position of the bubble is varring around the thickest point of the
            > arfoil from Vmin to Vmax of the glider you must find your optimum. If
            > the tape is to much in front, getting addidional drag flying at high
            > speed and good results at low speed and vice versa.
            >
            > On the lower side, the bubble is not so big and especially the movement
            > of the bubble is from the leading to the trailing edge (Vmin to Vmax),
            i
            > would not suggest to put a turbulator there, because it will work with
            a
            > small reduced drag at one point of the polar but much more addidional
            > drag at the rest ...
            >
            > Stefan
            >
            >
            > >I have had a conversation with Christian Streifeneder
            (www.streifly.de)
            > >about this topic. Christian & his father Hansjorg are the world
            >Glasflugel
            > >experts. With regard to the Libelle (similar era, similar wing
            profile)
            >he
            > >feels that there is no point turbulating the underside, but there is
            > >probably a case for turbulating the top surface.
            > >
            > >Nick.
            > >----- Original Message -----
            > >From: "Chris Davison" <k6pilot@...>
            > >To: <StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com>
            > >Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:08 AM
            > >Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >>Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator
            tape?
            >I
            > >>have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't work
            >out
            > >>what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a difference?
            > >>
            > >>BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much
            quieter
            > >>now.
            > >>
            > >>Thankis
            > >>Chris
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>www.standardcirrus.org
            > >>
            > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >www.standardcirrus.org
            > >
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > www.standardcirrus.org
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
            ---
            >--
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/
            >
            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >www.standardcirrus.org
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >



            www.standardcirrus.org



            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            ADVERTISEMENT





            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            --
            Yahoo! Groups Links

            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stefan Melber
            Hi Chris, no, the twist of an 75er Cirrus if 1.5 degree instead of 0.75 in the simulations. This affects mainly the lift distribution an gives a Cirrus with
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 19, 2005
              Hi Chris,

              no, the twist of an 75er Cirrus if 1.5 degree instead of 0.75 in the
              simulations. This affects mainly the lift distribution an gives a Cirrus
              with 1.5 degree twist better handling but a bit more induced drag and
              with it, a bit decreased performace (But be aware all the time: This
              effect is quite small, and it is better to have 1 point lower gliding
              ratio then to be dead after spinning down with a ship in the landing
              curve!!!)

              The laminar size and position bubble is mainly driven by airfoil - and
              this is the same on all ships. Only the span-wise distribution of lift
              give a small change in postion, but this is only sigificant near V_min
              (thermaling), so forget it. The position given in our paper is ok for
              all Cirrus and the effect of a turbulator should be the same for all
              ships ... The same for the 15/16 m Version of the Cirrus, nearly the
              same lift distribution, the same airfoil, so no differences ...


              Stefan

              >Stefan, thanks. How would the change in wing twist of a Cirrus 75 affect
              >the theoretical poition of the top turbulator? Could it be that the
              >change in wing twist and (supposed) better peformance of the 75 model is
              >down to a reduced bubble, and hence the need for top surface tape is
              >lessened?
              >
              >Chris
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
              > Sent: 19 March 2005 08:01
              > To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
              >
              >
              > Hi Chris,
              >
              > numerical simulations can give a good estimation for a turbulator
              > position. Use the location of the laminar bubble on the upper side at
              > cross coutry speed (V=100 - 130 km/h), go a bit in direction of leading
              > edge (1-3 cm) and put the tape there. In
              > http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf, figure 3
              > you can find this position for a Std. Cirrus with 0.75 degree
              > geometrical shaped wing. I cannot give you at the moment a verification
              > of the numerical results with oil-flow pictures nor a measurement of the
              > differences, because my Cirrus is still under construction, but
              > hopefully at the end of this summer if will have this data and put it on
              > Jim page. The benefits for an Cirrus with turbulator should be in the
              > area of about 0.5 - 2 glide ratio points (big bubble - big effect ;-) )
              >
              > Jim has also made measurements an oil-flow pictures to get the position
              > of the bubble - just check his page ...
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > Stefan
              >
              > >So does anyone fly with top surface turbulator tape and if so what is the
              > >best position?....I am guessing that because I have never seen a glider
              >with
              > >top surface tape, that in practice the benefits are negligible or the
              >issue
              > >of change of position of bubble vs speed of glider is just too difficult
              >to
              > >overcome?
              > >
              > >Cheers
              > >Chris
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
              > > Sent: 19 March 2005 05:52
              > > To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Nick,
              > >
              > > on the upper side you MUST use a turbulator, because the type of
              >airfoil
              > > used on the Std. Cirrus produces a long and thick laminar separation
              > > bubble (compare figure 4 in
              > > http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf) . The
              > > addional drag of this bubble is much higher than the addinal drag of an
              > > turbulator tape. Especially the cross country speed of an Cirrus is not
              > > so high, this turbulator-drag becomes not critical flying from thermal
              > > to thermal. One problem is the correct location of the tape: Because
              >the
              > > position of the bubble is varring around the thickest point of the
              > > arfoil from Vmin to Vmax of the glider you must find your optimum. If
              > > the tape is to much in front, getting addidional drag flying at high
              > > speed and good results at low speed and vice versa.
              > >
              > > On the lower side, the bubble is not so big and especially the movement
              > > of the bubble is from the leading to the trailing edge (Vmin to Vmax),
              >i
              > > would not suggest to put a turbulator there, because it will work with
              >a
              > > small reduced drag at one point of the polar but much more addidional
              > > drag at the rest ...
              > >
              > > Stefan
              > >
              > >
              > > >I have had a conversation with Christian Streifeneder
              >(www.streifly.de)
              > > >about this topic. Christian & his father Hansjorg are the world
              > >Glasflugel
              > > >experts. With regard to the Libelle (similar era, similar wing
              >profile)
              > >he
              > > >feels that there is no point turbulating the underside, but there is
              > > >probably a case for turbulating the top surface.
              > > >
              > > >Nick.
              > > >----- Original Message -----
              > > >From: "Chris Davison" <k6pilot@...>
              > > >To: <StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com>
              > > >Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:08 AM
              > > >Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >>Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator
              >tape?
              > >I
              > > >>have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't work
              > >out
              > > >>what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a difference?
              > > >>
              > > >>BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much
              >quieter
              > > >>now.
              > > >>
              > > >>Thankis
              > > >>Chris
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>www.standardcirrus.org
              > > >>
              > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >>
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >www.standardcirrus.org
              > > >
              > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > www.standardcirrus.org
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > > ADVERTISEMENT
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >---
              > >--
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/
              > >
              > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              >Service.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >www.standardcirrus.org
              > >
              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > www.standardcirrus.org
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > ADVERTISEMENT
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >--
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >www.standardcirrus.org
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Chris Davison
              Stefan...thanks...you will gather that this is all new to me! So, I think what you are saying is that: 1) The oil flow experiment shown on
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 19, 2005
                Stefan...thanks...you will gather that this is all new to me! So, I think
                what you are saying is that:

                1) The oil flow experiment shown on www.standardcirrus.org is valid for
                all Cirrus types

                2) The issue of a seperation bubble only really exists on the top surface

                3) That the top surface bubble is a 'significant' problem (circa 0.5 - 2
                points L/D)

                4) That the actual position of the bubble will vary by speed, but given
                the limited speed range of an older glider, this is not a huge issue.

                So, given the data below, which shows distance from the T/E to the bubble,
                how far in front of the bubble should you put the turbulator tape? Thanks -
                Chris



                Position of Separation Bubble
                The following tables give the bubble position as the distance from the
                trailing edge of the wing to the front of the bubble. As noted above, this
                position is about half way along the front part of the bubble where the
                separation is gradually increasing. The span position in bold font marks the
                end of the inner (transition) panel and beginning of the outer (aileron)
                panel.


                Inches
                span from TE
                0 20.3 = 20 3/8
                12 20.2 = 20 2/8
                36 19.9 = 19 7/8
                72 19.5 = 19 4/8
                99 19.2 = 19 2/8
                108 19.1 = 19 1/8
                144 18.7 = 18 5/8
                164 18.4 = 18 3/8
                180 17.3 = 17 2/8
                216 14.8 = 14 6/8
                252 12.2 = 12 2/8
                276 10.5 = 10 4/8


                Centimeters
                span from TE
                0 51.6
                50 51.1
                100 50.5
                150 50.0
                200 49.4
                250 48.8
                300 48.2
                350 47.6
                400 48.0
                416.6 46.8
                450 44.4
                500 40.9
                550 37.4
                600 33.9
                650 30.3
                700 26.8



                -----Original Message-----
                From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
                Sent: 19 March 2005 10:25
                To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


                Hi Chris,

                no, the twist of an 75er Cirrus if 1.5 degree instead of 0.75 in the
                simulations. This affects mainly the lift distribution an gives a Cirrus
                with 1.5 degree twist better handling but a bit more induced drag and
                with it, a bit decreased performace (But be aware all the time: This
                effect is quite small, and it is better to have 1 point lower gliding
                ratio then to be dead after spinning down with a ship in the landing
                curve!!!)

                The laminar size and position bubble is mainly driven by airfoil - and
                this is the same on all ships. Only the span-wise distribution of lift
                give a small change in postion, but this is only sigificant near V_min
                (thermaling), so forget it. The position given in our paper is ok for
                all Cirrus and the effect of a turbulator should be the same for all
                ships ... The same for the 15/16 m Version of the Cirrus, nearly the
                same lift distribution, the same airfoil, so no differences ...


                Stefan

                >Stefan, thanks. How would the change in wing twist of a Cirrus 75
                affect
                >the theoretical poition of the top turbulator? Could it be that the
                >change in wing twist and (supposed) better peformance of the 75 model is
                >down to a reduced bubble, and hence the need for top surface tape is
                >lessened?
                >
                >Chris
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
                > Sent: 19 March 2005 08:01
                > To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
                >
                >
                > Hi Chris,
                >
                > numerical simulations can give a good estimation for a turbulator
                > position. Use the location of the laminar bubble on the upper side at
                > cross coutry speed (V=100 - 130 km/h), go a bit in direction of leading
                > edge (1-3 cm) and put the tape there. In
                > http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf, figure 3
                > you can find this position for a Std. Cirrus with 0.75 degree
                > geometrical shaped wing. I cannot give you at the moment a verification
                > of the numerical results with oil-flow pictures nor a measurement of
                the
                > differences, because my Cirrus is still under construction, but
                > hopefully at the end of this summer if will have this data and put it
                on
                > Jim page. The benefits for an Cirrus with turbulator should be in the
                > area of about 0.5 - 2 glide ratio points (big bubble - big effect ;-) )
                >
                > Jim has also made measurements an oil-flow pictures to get the position
                > of the bubble - just check his page ...
                >
                > Best regards,
                >
                > Stefan
                >
                > >So does anyone fly with top surface turbulator tape and if so what is
                the
                > >best position?....I am guessing that because I have never seen a
                glider
                >with
                > >top surface tape, that in practice the benefits are negligible or the
                >issue
                > >of change of position of bubble vs speed of glider is just too
                difficult
                >to
                > >overcome?
                > >
                > >Cheers
                > >Chris
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
                > > Sent: 19 March 2005 05:52
                > > To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard
                Cirrus
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi Nick,
                > >
                > > on the upper side you MUST use a turbulator, because the type of
                >airfoil
                > > used on the Std. Cirrus produces a long and thick laminar separation
                > > bubble (compare figure 4 in
                > > http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf) . The
                > > addional drag of this bubble is much higher than the addinal drag of
                an
                > > turbulator tape. Especially the cross country speed of an Cirrus is
                not
                > > so high, this turbulator-drag becomes not critical flying from
                thermal
                > > to thermal. One problem is the correct location of the tape: Because
                >the
                > > position of the bubble is varring around the thickest point of the
                > > arfoil from Vmin to Vmax of the glider you must find your optimum.
                If
                > > the tape is to much in front, getting addidional drag flying at high
                > > speed and good results at low speed and vice versa.
                > >
                > > On the lower side, the bubble is not so big and especially the
                movement
                > > of the bubble is from the leading to the trailing edge (Vmin to
                Vmax),
                >i
                > > would not suggest to put a turbulator there, because it will work
                with
                >a
                > > small reduced drag at one point of the polar but much more
                addidional
                > > drag at the rest ...
                > >
                > > Stefan
                > >
                > >
                > > >I have had a conversation with Christian Streifeneder
                >(www.streifly.de)
                > > >about this topic. Christian & his father Hansjorg are the world
                > >Glasflugel
                > > >experts. With regard to the Libelle (similar era, similar wing
                >profile)
                > >he
                > > >feels that there is no point turbulating the underside, but there
                is
                > > >probably a case for turbulating the top surface.
                > > >
                > > >Nick.
                > > >----- Original Message -----
                > > >From: "Chris Davison" <k6pilot@...>
                > > >To: <StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com>
                > > >Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:08 AM
                > > >Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >>Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator
                >tape?
                > >I
                > > >>have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't
                work
                > >out
                > > >>what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a
                difference?
                > > >>
                > > >>BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much
                >quieter
                > > >>now.
                > > >>
                > > >>Thankis
                > > >>Chris
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>www.standardcirrus.org
                > > >>
                > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >www.standardcirrus.org
                > > >
                > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > www.standardcirrus.org
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >---
                > >--
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/
                > >
                > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                >Service.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >www.standardcirrus.org
                > >
                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > www.standardcirrus.org
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                ---
                >--
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/
                >
                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >www.standardcirrus.org
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >



                www.standardcirrus.org



                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                ADVERTISEMENT





                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                --
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stefan Melber
                Chris, ... Yes ... ... The bubble is although existent on the lower side and has an influence - but the position there is varing so much it makes no sense to
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 19, 2005
                  Chris,


                  >Stefan...thanks...you will gather that this is all new to me! So, I think
                  >what you are saying is that:
                  >
                  >1) The oil flow experiment shown on www.standardcirrus.org is valid for
                  >all Cirrus types
                  >
                  >
                  Yes ...

                  >2) The issue of a seperation bubble only really exists on the top surface
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  The bubble is although existent on the lower side and has an influence -
                  but the position there is varing so much it makes no sense to put
                  turbulator there ...

                  >3) That the top surface bubble is a 'significant' problem (circa 0.5 - 2
                  >points L/D)
                  >
                  >
                  Yes ... this is for all older gliders with thick airfoils of the first
                  laminar-generation (Std. Cirrus, LS1, Astir ...)

                  >4) That the actual position of the bubble will vary by speed, but given
                  >the limited speed range of an older glider, this is not a huge issue.
                  >
                  >
                  Yes, improving the L/D at cross country speed is the best way, the loss
                  at thermaling can be neglegted (there is energy in air - forget this
                  small drag ;-) )

                  >So, given the data below, which shows distance from the T/E to the bubble,
                  >how far in front of the bubble should you put the turbulator tape? Thanks -
                  >Chris
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  I have not checked this positions of Jim in detail, but they look good
                  compared to my results (see again in my paper). After flying my ship and
                  do some measurements, i can improve my calculations (and doing an
                  numerical optimization of the position) to get the optimal turbulator
                  position and size (height of the tape). But Jims results should be 95%
                  near the optimum ;-) So use this positions and build bug wipers - on an
                  "buggy-day", they will add you the same improvement than the turbulators ...

                  Stefan

                  >
                  > Position of Separation Bubble
                  >The following tables give the bubble position as the distance from the
                  >trailing edge of the wing to the front of the bubble. As noted above, this
                  >position is about half way along the front part of the bubble where the
                  >separation is gradually increasing. The span position in bold font marks the
                  >end of the inner (transition) panel and beginning of the outer (aileron)
                  >panel.
                  >
                  >
                  > Inches
                  >span from TE
                  > 0 20.3 = 20 3/8
                  > 12 20.2 = 20 2/8
                  > 36 19.9 = 19 7/8
                  > 72 19.5 = 19 4/8
                  > 99 19.2 = 19 2/8
                  >108 19.1 = 19 1/8
                  >144 18.7 = 18 5/8
                  >164 18.4 = 18 3/8
                  >180 17.3 = 17 2/8
                  >216 14.8 = 14 6/8
                  >252 12.2 = 12 2/8
                  >276 10.5 = 10 4/8
                  >
                  >
                  > Centimeters
                  > span from TE
                  > 0 51.6
                  > 50 51.1
                  >100 50.5
                  >150 50.0
                  >200 49.4
                  >250 48.8
                  >300 48.2
                  >350 47.6
                  >400 48.0
                  >416.6 46.8
                  >450 44.4
                  >500 40.9
                  >550 37.4
                  >600 33.9
                  >650 30.3
                  >700 26.8
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
                  > Sent: 19 March 2005 10:25
                  > To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Chris,
                  >
                  > no, the twist of an 75er Cirrus if 1.5 degree instead of 0.75 in the
                  > simulations. This affects mainly the lift distribution an gives a Cirrus
                  > with 1.5 degree twist better handling but a bit more induced drag and
                  > with it, a bit decreased performace (But be aware all the time: This
                  > effect is quite small, and it is better to have 1 point lower gliding
                  > ratio then to be dead after spinning down with a ship in the landing
                  > curve!!!)
                  >
                  > The laminar size and position bubble is mainly driven by airfoil - and
                  > this is the same on all ships. Only the span-wise distribution of lift
                  > give a small change in postion, but this is only sigificant near V_min
                  > (thermaling), so forget it. The position given in our paper is ok for
                  > all Cirrus and the effect of a turbulator should be the same for all
                  > ships ... The same for the 15/16 m Version of the Cirrus, nearly the
                  > same lift distribution, the same airfoil, so no differences ...
                  >
                  >
                  > Stefan
                  >
                  > >Stefan, thanks. How would the change in wing twist of a Cirrus 75
                  >affect
                  > >the theoretical poition of the top turbulator? Could it be that the
                  > >change in wing twist and (supposed) better peformance of the 75 model is
                  > >down to a reduced bubble, and hence the need for top surface tape is
                  > >lessened?
                  > >
                  > >Chris
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
                  > > Sent: 19 March 2005 08:01
                  > > To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi Chris,
                  > >
                  > > numerical simulations can give a good estimation for a turbulator
                  > > position. Use the location of the laminar bubble on the upper side at
                  > > cross coutry speed (V=100 - 130 km/h), go a bit in direction of leading
                  > > edge (1-3 cm) and put the tape there. In
                  > > http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf, figure 3
                  > > you can find this position for a Std. Cirrus with 0.75 degree
                  > > geometrical shaped wing. I cannot give you at the moment a verification
                  > > of the numerical results with oil-flow pictures nor a measurement of
                  >the
                  > > differences, because my Cirrus is still under construction, but
                  > > hopefully at the end of this summer if will have this data and put it
                  >on
                  > > Jim page. The benefits for an Cirrus with turbulator should be in the
                  > > area of about 0.5 - 2 glide ratio points (big bubble - big effect ;-) )
                  > >
                  > > Jim has also made measurements an oil-flow pictures to get the position
                  > > of the bubble - just check his page ...
                  > >
                  > > Best regards,
                  > >
                  > > Stefan
                  > >
                  > > >So does anyone fly with top surface turbulator tape and if so what is
                  >the
                  > > >best position?....I am guessing that because I have never seen a
                  >glider
                  > >with
                  > > >top surface tape, that in practice the benefits are negligible or the
                  > >issue
                  > > >of change of position of bubble vs speed of glider is just too
                  >difficult
                  > >to
                  > > >overcome?
                  > > >
                  > > >Cheers
                  > > >Chris
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: Stefan Melber [mailto:Stefan.Melber@...]
                  > > > Sent: 19 March 2005 05:52
                  > > > To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard
                  >Cirrus
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Nick,
                  > > >
                  > > > on the upper side you MUST use a turbulator, because the type of
                  > >airfoil
                  > > > used on the Std. Cirrus produces a long and thick laminar separation
                  > > > bubble (compare figure 4 in
                  > > > http://www.oxaero.com/_StandardCirrus/Melber-Simulation.pdf) . The
                  > > > addional drag of this bubble is much higher than the addinal drag of
                  >an
                  > > > turbulator tape. Especially the cross country speed of an Cirrus is
                  >not
                  > > > so high, this turbulator-drag becomes not critical flying from
                  >thermal
                  > > > to thermal. One problem is the correct location of the tape: Because
                  > >the
                  > > > position of the bubble is varring around the thickest point of the
                  > > > arfoil from Vmin to Vmax of the glider you must find your optimum.
                  >If
                  > > > the tape is to much in front, getting addidional drag flying at high
                  > > > speed and good results at low speed and vice versa.
                  > > >
                  > > > On the lower side, the bubble is not so big and especially the
                  >movement
                  > > > of the bubble is from the leading to the trailing edge (Vmin to
                  >Vmax),
                  > >i
                  > > > would not suggest to put a turbulator there, because it will work
                  >with
                  > >a
                  > > > small reduced drag at one point of the polar but much more
                  >addidional
                  > > > drag at the rest ...
                  > > >
                  > > > Stefan
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >I have had a conversation with Christian Streifeneder
                  > >(www.streifly.de)
                  > > > >about this topic. Christian & his father Hansjorg are the world
                  > > >Glasflugel
                  > > > >experts. With regard to the Libelle (similar era, similar wing
                  > >profile)
                  > > >he
                  > > > >feels that there is no point turbulating the underside, but there
                  >is
                  > > > >probably a case for turbulating the top surface.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Nick.
                  > > > >----- Original Message -----
                  > > > >From: "Chris Davison" <k6pilot@...>
                  > > > >To: <StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > >Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:08 AM
                  > > > >Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >>Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator
                  > >tape?
                  > > >I
                  > > > >>have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't
                  >work
                  > > >out
                  > > > >>what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a
                  >difference?
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much
                  > >quieter
                  > > > >>now.
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>Thankis
                  > > > >>Chris
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>www.standardcirrus.org
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >www.standardcirrus.org
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > www.standardcirrus.org
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >>
                  > >---
                  > > >--
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/
                  > > >
                  > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > >Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >www.standardcirrus.org
                  > > >
                  > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > www.standardcirrus.org
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >---
                  > >--
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/
                  > >
                  > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  >Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >www.standardcirrus.org
                  > >
                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > www.standardcirrus.org
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > ADVERTISEMENT
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >--
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/
                  >
                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >www.standardcirrus.org
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Jeff Melin
                  Sorry for the delay in responding, I ve seen some of the other responses, all of which are very interesting. At the end of the 02 season a few friends and I
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 20, 2005
                    Sorry for the delay in responding, I've seen some of the other responses, all of which are very interesting.

                    At the end of the '02 season a few friends and I towed to Ridge Soaring in Pennsylvania, (USA) for Fall ridge soaring.
                    We had one good ridge day. Other days were marginal thermal days. Lift was very strong, small, and choppy. I had noticed previously that I had great difficulty in similar conditions. At times, I seemed to have lost roll control but never stalled. Somewhere, I had received information that turbulators might help in situations like that by smoothing out the airflow. I decided then and there to apply lower side turbulators using the data which was on this site at the time. Both Jim Hendricks and a member from Michigan, whose name I regrettably cannot find now had supplied similar data, but as I recall the Michigan mans data had more measurment points. He had claimed to pick up almost 1 full point of L/D. I applied zig-zag tape to the underside prior to the start of the '03 season.

                    The design is interesting, with an almost straight line from the root to the transition to the outer foil where it angles to a point a few feet in from the tip where it straightens out again in the area of the tip washout.

                    I had not done any measured tests before or after the tape application, so cannot testify to any improvement in L/D. However, I have no doubt that this has made a tremendous improvement in the stability of the ship in rough air.

                    I'm looking forward to learning more about the Sinha surfacing for the upper side. Remember when Dennis Connor won the America's Cup with a rough surface application of a similar product applied to the hull of "Stars and Stripes"?

                    Jeff

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Chris Davison
                    To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:08 AM
                    Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


                    Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator tape? I
                    have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't work out
                    what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a difference?

                    BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much quieter now.

                    Thanks
                    Chris




                    www.standardcirrus.org



                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    ADVERTISEMENT





                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tom Shipp
                    I am the Michigan member that applied turbulators to the lower side wing of S/N 177, this glider has the additional .75 wing washout. My before and after test
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 21, 2005
                      I am the Michigan member that applied turbulators to the lower side wing of S/N 177, this glider has the additional .75 wing washout. My before and after test showed .9 L/D better between 60 to 70 kts. The handling also improved but I noticed a higher sink rate than before near the 50 knot speed. Removing the outer portion of the turbulator back to about the outer aileron improved the higher sink rate. Jim's oil test also showed little indication of a bubble at this portion of the wing.

                      I found little difference between my sink rate and the LS4 that I flew some 15 mile final glides with as long as the speed was within 60-70 kts.

                      Other things you can do to improve the Cirrus is to install sliding seals top/bottom ailerons, seal both sides of the rudder and control rod seals. Besides better handling they reduce the noise level in the cockpit. I also thought that a good wax job helped, I used the sealer and UV blocker from Wings and Wheels.

                      I have since sold my glider because glider towing takes so much of my time that little time was left to fly it. So this year, soaring for me will mostly be the club Pilatas B4 and Grob 103.The Cirrus is a great inexpensive glider and with a little work can fly close to those gliders costing twice as much. The Sinha top wing surface or perhaps addition of convential turbulators is looking very good. Just keep in mind that for turbulator placement, the bubble moves about 1 inch between 50 and 70 kts.

                      Thanks Jim for all the work you have already done to improve the Cirrus performance. Great information site!
                      Tom Shipp


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Jeff Melin
                      To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 12:21 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


                      Sorry for the delay in responding, I've seen some of the other responses, all of which are very interesting.

                      At the end of the '02 season a few friends and I towed to Ridge Soaring in Pennsylvania, (USA) for Fall ridge soaring.
                      We had one good ridge day. Other days were marginal thermal days. Lift was very strong, small, and choppy. I had noticed previously that I had great difficulty in similar conditions. At times, I seemed to have lost roll control but never stalled. Somewhere, I had received information that turbulators might help in situations like that by smoothing out the airflow. I decided then and there to apply lower side turbulators using the data which was on this site at the time. Both Jim Hendricks and a member from Michigan, whose name I regrettably cannot find now had supplied similar data, but as I recall the Michigan mans data had more measurment points. He had claimed to pick up almost 1 full point of L/D. I applied zig-zag tape to the underside prior to the start of the '03 season.

                      The design is interesting, with an almost straight line from the root to the transition to the outer foil where it angles to a point a few feet in from the tip where it straightens out again in the area of the tip washout.

                      I had not done any measured tests before or after the tape application, so cannot testify to any improvement in L/D. However, I have no doubt that this has made a tremendous improvement in the stability of the ship in rough air.

                      I'm looking forward to learning more about the Sinha surfacing for the upper side. Remember when Dennis Connor won the America's Cup with a rough surface application of a similar product applied to the hull of "Stars and Stripes"?

                      Jeff

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Chris Davison
                      To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:08 AM
                      Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


                      Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator tape? I
                      have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't work out
                      what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a difference?

                      BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much quieter now.

                      Thanks
                      Chris




                      www.standardcirrus.org



                      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      ADVERTISEMENT





                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                      b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      www.standardcirrus.org



                      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      ADVERTISEMENT





                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                      b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • jari
                      Hello everyone, I have installed turbulator tabe on upper and lower surface (lower surface tubulators on the outer portion is positioned close to the ailerons)
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 9, 2005
                        Hello everyone,

                        I have installed turbulator tabe on upper and lower surface (lower
                        surface tubulators on the outer portion is positioned close to the
                        ailerons) on my Std Cirrus B #574, Z4 and have been flying it in
                        competition. Z4 flies better against other then before both in thermals
                        and on cruise. Also low speed handling has improved significantly.

                        The only drawback I have found is that you should not fly through rain
                        with it. Stall speed was over 100 km/h with mildly wet wings and
                        performance dropped dramatically. I know that the cirrus wing profile is
                        bad with water on it in general, but with the turbulators it felt like
                        flying a PIK20 with water on the wings, which is like falling out of the
                        sky.

                        BR

                        Jari

                        -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                        Från: Tom Shipp [mailto:tshipp225168MI@...]
                        Skickat: den 21 mars 2005 17:29
                        Till: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                        Ämne: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus

                        I am the Michigan member that applied turbulators to the lower side wing
                        of S/N 177, this glider has the additional .75 wing washout. My before
                        and after test showed .9 L/D better between 60 to 70 kts. The handling
                        also improved but I noticed a higher sink rate than before near the 50
                        knot speed. Removing the outer portion of the turbulator back to about
                        the outer aileron improved the higher sink rate. Jim's oil test also
                        showed little indication of a bubble at this portion of the wing.

                        I found little difference between my sink rate and the LS4 that I flew
                        some 15 mile final glides with as long as the speed was within 60-70
                        kts.

                        Other things you can do to improve the Cirrus is to install sliding
                        seals top/bottom ailerons, seal both sides of the rudder and control rod
                        seals. Besides better handling they reduce the noise level in the
                        cockpit. I also thought that a good wax job helped, I used the sealer
                        and UV blocker from Wings and Wheels.

                        I have since sold my glider because glider towing takes so much of my
                        time that little time was left to fly it. So this year, soaring for me
                        will mostly be the club Pilatas B4 and Grob 103.The Cirrus is a great
                        inexpensive glider and with a little work can fly close to those gliders
                        costing twice as much. The Sinha top wing surface or perhaps addition of
                        convential turbulators is looking very good. Just keep in mind that for
                        turbulator placement, the bubble moves about 1 inch between 50 and 70
                        kts.

                        Thanks Jim for all the work you have already done to improve the Cirrus
                        performance. Great information site!
                        Tom Shipp


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Jeff Melin
                        To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 12:21 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard
                        Cirrus


                        Sorry for the delay in responding, I've seen some of the other
                        responses, all of which are very interesting.

                        At the end of the '02 season a few friends and I towed to Ridge
                        Soaring in Pennsylvania, (USA) for Fall ridge soaring.
                        We had one good ridge day. Other days were marginal thermal days.
                        Lift was very strong, small, and choppy. I had noticed previously that
                        I had great difficulty in similar conditions. At times, I seemed to
                        have lost roll control but never stalled. Somewhere, I had received
                        information that turbulators might help in situations like that by
                        smoothing out the airflow. I decided then and there to apply lower side
                        turbulators using the data which was on this site at the time. Both Jim
                        Hendricks and a member from Michigan, whose name I regrettably cannot
                        find now had supplied similar data, but as I recall the Michigan mans
                        data had more measurment points. He had claimed to pick up almost 1
                        full point of L/D. I applied zig-zag tape to the underside prior to the
                        start of the '03 season.

                        The design is interesting, with an almost straight line from the root
                        to the transition to the outer foil where it angles to a point a few
                        feet in from the tip where it straightens out again in the area of the
                        tip washout.

                        I had not done any measured tests before or after the tape
                        application, so cannot testify to any improvement in L/D. However, I
                        have no doubt that this has made a tremendous improvement in the
                        stability of the ship in rough air.

                        I'm looking forward to learning more about the Sinha surfacing for the
                        upper side. Remember when Dennis Connor won the America's Cup with a
                        rough surface application of a similar product applied to the hull of
                        "Stars and Stripes"?

                        Jeff

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Chris Davison
                        To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:08 AM
                        Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


                        Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator
                        tape? I
                        have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't
                        work out
                        what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a
                        difference?

                        BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much
                        quieter now.

                        Thanks
                        Chris




                        www.standardcirrus.org



                        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT






                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        ------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/>
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/


                        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        Service.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        www.standardcirrus.org



                        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT





                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        ------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/>
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/


                        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        Service.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        www.standardcirrus.org






                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/> ADVERTISEMENT
                        click here

                        <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1295kiv80/M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/
                        D=groups/S=1705784092:HM/EXP=1111508960/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*htt
                        p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>


                        <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1295kiv80/M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/
                        D=groups/S=1705784092:HM/EXP=1111508960/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*htt
                        p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>

                        <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                        s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991>

                        <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                        s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991>
                        _____


                        <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                        s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991> Yahoo! Groups Links

                        <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                        s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991> * To visit your group on the
                        web, go to:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/> * To unsubscribe
                        from this group, send an email to:
                        StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        <mailto:StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                        * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        Service.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Shaun McLaughlin
                        Were these turbulators on the full span of the upper and lower surfaces? Thanks, Shaun ... From: jari To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 09,
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 10, 2005
                          Were these turbulators on the full span of the upper and lower surfaces?

                          Thanks,

                          Shaun
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: jari
                          To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:57 PM
                          Subject: SV: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


                          Hello everyone,

                          I have installed turbulator tabe on upper and lower surface (lower
                          surface tubulators on the outer portion is positioned close to the
                          ailerons) on my Std Cirrus B #574, Z4 and have been flying it in
                          competition. Z4 flies better against other then before both in thermals
                          and on cruise. Also low speed handling has improved significantly.

                          The only drawback I have found is that you should not fly through rain
                          with it. Stall speed was over 100 km/h with mildly wet wings and
                          performance dropped dramatically. I know that the cirrus wing profile is
                          bad with water on it in general, but with the turbulators it felt like
                          flying a PIK20 with water on the wings, which is like falling out of the
                          sky.

                          BR

                          Jari

                          -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                          Från: Tom Shipp [mailto:tshipp225168MI@...]
                          Skickat: den 21 mars 2005 17:29
                          Till: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                          Ämne: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus

                          I am the Michigan member that applied turbulators to the lower side wing
                          of S/N 177, this glider has the additional .75 wing washout. My before
                          and after test showed .9 L/D better between 60 to 70 kts. The handling
                          also improved but I noticed a higher sink rate than before near the 50
                          knot speed. Removing the outer portion of the turbulator back to about
                          the outer aileron improved the higher sink rate. Jim's oil test also
                          showed little indication of a bubble at this portion of the wing.

                          I found little difference between my sink rate and the LS4 that I flew
                          some 15 mile final glides with as long as the speed was within 60-70
                          kts.

                          Other things you can do to improve the Cirrus is to install sliding
                          seals top/bottom ailerons, seal both sides of the rudder and control rod
                          seals. Besides better handling they reduce the noise level in the
                          cockpit. I also thought that a good wax job helped, I used the sealer
                          and UV blocker from Wings and Wheels.

                          I have since sold my glider because glider towing takes so much of my
                          time that little time was left to fly it. So this year, soaring for me
                          will mostly be the club Pilatas B4 and Grob 103.The Cirrus is a great
                          inexpensive glider and with a little work can fly close to those gliders
                          costing twice as much. The Sinha top wing surface or perhaps addition of
                          convential turbulators is looking very good. Just keep in mind that for
                          turbulator placement, the bubble moves about 1 inch between 50 and 70
                          kts.

                          Thanks Jim for all the work you have already done to improve the Cirrus
                          performance. Great information site!
                          Tom Shipp


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Jeff Melin
                          To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 12:21 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard
                          Cirrus


                          Sorry for the delay in responding, I've seen some of the other
                          responses, all of which are very interesting.

                          At the end of the '02 season a few friends and I towed to Ridge
                          Soaring in Pennsylvania, (USA) for Fall ridge soaring.
                          We had one good ridge day. Other days were marginal thermal days.
                          Lift was very strong, small, and choppy. I had noticed previously that
                          I had great difficulty in similar conditions. At times, I seemed to
                          have lost roll control but never stalled. Somewhere, I had received
                          information that turbulators might help in situations like that by
                          smoothing out the airflow. I decided then and there to apply lower side
                          turbulators using the data which was on this site at the time. Both Jim
                          Hendricks and a member from Michigan, whose name I regrettably cannot
                          find now had supplied similar data, but as I recall the Michigan mans
                          data had more measurment points. He had claimed to pick up almost 1
                          full point of L/D. I applied zig-zag tape to the underside prior to the
                          start of the '03 season.

                          The design is interesting, with an almost straight line from the root
                          to the transition to the outer foil where it angles to a point a few
                          feet in from the tip where it straightens out again in the area of the
                          tip washout.

                          I had not done any measured tests before or after the tape
                          application, so cannot testify to any improvement in L/D. However, I
                          have no doubt that this has made a tremendous improvement in the
                          stability of the ship in rough air.

                          I'm looking forward to learning more about the Sinha surfacing for the
                          upper side. Remember when Dennis Connor won the America's Cup with a
                          rough surface application of a similar product applied to the hull of
                          "Stars and Stripes"?

                          Jeff

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Chris Davison
                          To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:08 AM
                          Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


                          Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator
                          tape? I
                          have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't
                          work out
                          what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a
                          difference?

                          BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much
                          quieter now.

                          Thanks
                          Chris




                          www.standardcirrus.org



                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          ADVERTISEMENT






                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          ------
                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/>
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/


                          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          Service.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          www.standardcirrus.org



                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          ADVERTISEMENT





                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          ------
                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/>
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/


                          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          Service.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          www.standardcirrus.org






                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/> ADVERTISEMENT
                          click here

                          <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1295kiv80/M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/
                          D=groups/S=1705784092:HM/EXP=1111508960/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*htt
                          p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>


                          <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1295kiv80/M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/
                          D=groups/S=1705784092:HM/EXP=1111508960/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*htt
                          p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>

                          <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                          s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991>

                          <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                          s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991>
                          _____


                          <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                          s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991> Yahoo! Groups Links

                          <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                          s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991> * To visit your group on the
                          web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/> * To unsubscribe
                          from this group, send an email to:
                          StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          <mailto:StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                          * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          Service.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          www.standardcirrus.org




                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • jari
                          Yes, the tapes are installed on full span, and the tape thickness is 0.15 mm on the upper surface and 0.3 mm on the lower surface Jari ... Från:
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 24, 2005
                            Yes, the tapes are installed on full span, and the
                            tape thickness is 0.15 mm on the upper surface and 0.3 mm on the lower
                            surface

                            Jari

                            -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                            Från: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com] För Shaun McLaughlin
                            Skickat: den 10 maj 2005 13:22
                            Till: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                            Ämne: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus

                            Were these turbulators on the full span of the upper and lower surfaces?

                            Thanks,

                            Shaun
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: jari
                            To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:57 PM
                            Subject: SV: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard
                            Cirrus


                            Hello everyone,

                            I have installed turbulator tabe on upper and lower surface (lower
                            surface tubulators on the outer portion is positioned close to the
                            ailerons) on my Std Cirrus B #574, Z4 and have been flying it in
                            competition. Z4 flies better against other then before both in
                            thermals
                            and on cruise. Also low speed handling has improved significantly.

                            The only drawback I have found is that you should not fly through rain
                            with it. Stall speed was over 100 km/h with mildly wet wings and
                            performance dropped dramatically. I know that the cirrus wing profile
                            is
                            bad with water on it in general, but with the turbulators it felt like
                            flying a PIK20 with water on the wings, which is like falling out of
                            the
                            sky.

                            BR

                            Jari

                            -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                            Från: Tom Shipp [mailto:tshipp225168MI@...]
                            Skickat: den 21 mars 2005 17:29
                            Till: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                            Ämne: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus

                            I am the Michigan member that applied turbulators to the lower side
                            wing
                            of S/N 177, this glider has the additional .75 wing washout. My before
                            and after test showed .9 L/D better between 60 to 70 kts. The handling
                            also improved but I noticed a higher sink rate than before near the 50
                            knot speed. Removing the outer portion of the turbulator back to about
                            the outer aileron improved the higher sink rate. Jim's oil test also
                            showed little indication of a bubble at this portion of the wing.

                            I found little difference between my sink rate and the LS4 that I flew
                            some 15 mile final glides with as long as the speed was within 60-70
                            kts.

                            Other things you can do to improve the Cirrus is to install sliding
                            seals top/bottom ailerons, seal both sides of the rudder and control
                            rod
                            seals. Besides better handling they reduce the noise level in the
                            cockpit. I also thought that a good wax job helped, I used the sealer
                            and UV blocker from Wings and Wheels.

                            I have since sold my glider because glider towing takes so much of my
                            time that little time was left to fly it. So this year, soaring for me
                            will mostly be the club Pilatas B4 and Grob 103.The Cirrus is a great
                            inexpensive glider and with a little work can fly close to those
                            gliders
                            costing twice as much. The Sinha top wing surface or perhaps addition
                            of
                            convential turbulators is looking very good. Just keep in mind that
                            for
                            turbulator placement, the bubble moves about 1 inch between 50 and 70
                            kts.

                            Thanks Jim for all the work you have already done to improve the
                            Cirrus
                            performance. Great information site!
                            Tom Shipp


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Jeff Melin
                            To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 12:21 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard
                            Cirrus


                            Sorry for the delay in responding, I've seen some of the other
                            responses, all of which are very interesting.

                            At the end of the '02 season a few friends and I towed to Ridge
                            Soaring in Pennsylvania, (USA) for Fall ridge soaring.
                            We had one good ridge day. Other days were marginal thermal days.
                            Lift was very strong, small, and choppy. I had noticed previously
                            that
                            I had great difficulty in similar conditions. At times, I seemed to
                            have lost roll control but never stalled. Somewhere, I had received
                            information that turbulators might help in situations like that by
                            smoothing out the airflow. I decided then and there to apply lower
                            side
                            turbulators using the data which was on this site at the time. Both
                            Jim
                            Hendricks and a member from Michigan, whose name I regrettably cannot
                            find now had supplied similar data, but as I recall the Michigan mans
                            data had more measurment points. He had claimed to pick up almost 1
                            full point of L/D. I applied zig-zag tape to the underside prior to
                            the
                            start of the '03 season.

                            The design is interesting, with an almost straight line from the
                            root
                            to the transition to the outer foil where it angles to a point a few
                            feet in from the tip where it straightens out again in the area of the
                            tip washout.

                            I had not done any measured tests before or after the tape
                            application, so cannot testify to any improvement in L/D. However, I
                            have no doubt that this has made a tremendous improvement in the
                            stability of the ship in rough air.

                            I'm looking forward to learning more about the Sinha surfacing for
                            the
                            upper side. Remember when Dennis Connor won the America's Cup with a
                            rough surface application of a similar product applied to the hull of
                            "Stars and Stripes"?

                            Jeff

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Chris Davison
                            To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:08 AM
                            Subject: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard
                            Cirrus


                            Any of you have any thoughts on the use of lower wing turbulator
                            tape? I
                            have read the detailed stuff on www.standardcirrus.org but can't
                            work out
                            what the conclusion is?? Who uses it and does it make a
                            difference?

                            BTW, have just installed new seals on the rudder...just SO much
                            quieter now.

                            Thanks
                            Chris




                            www.standardcirrus.org



                            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            ADVERTISEMENT







                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            ------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/>
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/


                            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            www.standardcirrus.org



                            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            ADVERTISEMENT






                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            ------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/>
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/


                            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            www.standardcirrus.org






                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/> ADVERTISEMENT
                            click here


                            <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1295kiv80/M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/

                            D=groups/S=1705784092:HM/EXP=1111508960/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*htt
                            p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>



                            <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1295kiv80/M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/

                            D=groups/S=1705784092:HM/EXP=1111508960/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*htt
                            p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>


                            <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                            s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991>


                            <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                            s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991>
                            _____



                            <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                            s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991> Yahoo! Groups Links


                            <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=group
                            s/S=:HM/A=2593423/rand=258972991> * To visit your group on the
                            web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/> * To
                            unsubscribe
                            from this group, send an email to:
                            StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


                            <mailto:StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            www.standardcirrus.org




                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            ------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            www.standardcirrus.org




                            _____

                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                            * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            <mailto:StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jari
                            Dear Shaun, Yes, the tapes were installed on full span. Thickness of the upper surface tape is 0.15 mm and the lower surface tape is 0.3 mm thick. Jari
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 24, 2005
                              Dear Shaun,

                              Yes, the tapes were installed on full span. Thickness of the upper
                              surface tape is 0.15 mm and the lower surface tape is 0.3 mm thick.

                              Jari


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Thom
                              Is there a diagram showing where to put the tape? Measurements? etc.? #175 EY ... From: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 24, 2005
                                Is there a diagram showing where to put the tape? Measurements? etc.?

                                #175 EY
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of jari
                                Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:10 PM
                                To: StandardCirrus@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Standard Cirrus] Turbulator benefits on a Standard Cirrus


                                Dear Shaun,

                                Yes, the tapes were installed on full span. Thickness of the upper
                                surface tape is 0.15 mm and the lower surface tape is 0.3 mm thick.

                                Jari


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                www.standardcirrus.org




                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                --
                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StandardCirrus/

                                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                StandardCirrus-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • jari
                                Thom, Check Stefan Melbers mail to this group dated 2005-03-19 it contain information on the upper surface laminar bubble. I applied the tape just upstream of
                                Message 15 of 16 , May 25, 2005
                                  Thom,

                                  Check Stefan Melbers mail to this group dated 2005-03-19 it contain
                                  information on the upper surface laminar bubble. I applied the tape just
                                  upstream of this location.

                                  For lower surface tape location I think there is info. On the web page
                                  <http://www.standardcirrus.org/> www.standardcirrus.org . At least I
                                  found it there.

                                  Jari


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.