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Re: Old designs, need advise

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  • Chuck Scrivner
    Joe Norris Wrote; http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/030507_norris.html EAA S JOE NORRIS APPOINTED AB-DAR The goal is to develop guidance that would
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
      Joe Norris Wrote;
      http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/030507_norris.html
      EAA'S JOE NORRIS APPOINTED AB-DAR

      The goal is to develop guidance that would show an applicant how to
      document that an aircraft meets the requirements for certification as
      a glider. What will be contained in that guidance is yet to be
      determined, but I would surmise that it will be based upon
      internationally recognized definitions of a glider.


      Chuck Wrote;
      >And Who are you working with in FAA?


      Joe wrote;
      AIR-200 and AFS-600 as of right now. Other departments within the
      agency may become involved as necessary.


      Chuck Wrote;
      >Have you consulted with Soaring Society of America, the Vintage
      >Sailplane Association or the Selflaunch Association?


      Joe Wrote;
      I have not as of yet. Do you have any specific contacts you'd care
      to pass along? I would welcome their input.


      Chuck Wrote;
      >Have you consulted manufacturers such as Europa, Blanik, Grob, ASW,
      Sonex/Xenos, Pipistrel, Marske, etc.?


      Joe Wrote
      Not as of yet.


      Chuck Wrote;
      >Remember, to set those parameters, sets precedence for other
      >limiting regulations that may someday affect Experimental
      >Airplanes and EAA.

      Joe Writes-
      I believe that developing guidance on this issue would be a great
      benefit to amateur builders throughout the US. Such guidance will
      help to protect the interests of pilots with glider ratings on their
      certificates as well as builders of amateur-built aircraft.

      Joe

      ******************************
      So, Joe,
      You are not a Certificated Glider Pilot, you have never inspected a
      Registered Glider for A/W, EAA has no position or support structure
      for Experimental gliders, you have not conferred with any Soaring
      Organizations, manufacturers, clubs or individuals related to
      gliding. And, you have been an AB-DAR for less than a year.

      Yet, you intend to change and redefine the concept of Experimental
      Aircraft at it's most basic level (related to Design criteria) by
      unilateral discussions with FAA as a representative of the EAA.
      to "clarify" A/W Certification "Requirements" for
      gliders/motorgliders?

      Very interesting...........
      Chuck


      Pilots Database Search Result
      Name : NORRIS, JOSEPH BRIAN
      Pilot's Address : 1951A COUNTY HWY D
      WISCONSIN RAPIDS, WI, 54495-9330
      FAA Region : Great Lakes
      Date of Medical : Apr, 2003
      Class of Medical : 2
      Expiration : Apr, 2004
      Pilot Certificates : Commercial Pilot
      Airplane Single Engine Land
      Airplane Single Engine Sea
      Instrument Airplane
      Rotorcraft Helicopter
      : Flight Instructor
      Airplane Single Engine
      Rotorcraft Helicopter
      : Mechanic
      Airframe
      Powerplant
      : Repairman, experimental aircraft builder


      Again, Please review -

      --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Scrivner"
      <goflyslow2@a...> wrote:
      > FAA PowerPoint presentation- Amatuer Built Airworthiness Inspection
      > Guildelines for FAA Inspectors and DARs
      >
      > http://www.eaa732.org/homebuilder/amblt.ppt
      >
      > Note particular attention to pages 3, 4, 6, 7,10, 11,12, 13, 55 and
      75
      >
      > The below copy is obtained from the speakers notes appended to the
      > presentation.
      > When accessing the above hot link, RIGHT click on the presentation
      > and select FULL SCREEN. ....then, RIGHT click again, and select
      > speakers notes.
      >
      > A box will appear with the associated verbal lecture that is to
      > accompany each slide in the presentation. clicking on the full
      > screen will advance the presentation one slide at a time.
      >
      > Below is some of the most relevant and interesting "speakers notes"
      >
      > FIRST----THE AMATEUR-BUILT CERTIFICATION PROGRAM WAS DEVELOPED FOR
      > THE PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL TO HAVE SOME FUN AND TO BRING NEW AND
      > SOMETIMES UNIQUE DESIGNS INTO REALITY.
      >
      > #1 AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT DO NOT HAVE TO MEET ANY ESTABLISHED
      > AVIATION STANDARDS
      >
      > #2 THEY ARE NOT DESIGN LIMITED TO A SPECIFIC SIZE, NUMBER OF
      > ENGINES, OR AIRSPEED.
      >
      > IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THIS CONCEPT OF NO
      > DESIGN STANDARDS.
      >
      > IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT -- ASK THEM NOW. --- IF YOU
      > DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS THEN NOTHING ELSE IN THE NEXT 2 HOURS WILL
      > MAKE SENSE.
      >
      > AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT DO NOT HAVE TO MEET ESTABLISHED AVIATION
      > STANDARDS. THIS MEANS THAT FAR PARTS 23 OR 33 OR CAR 3 DOES
      NOT
      > APPLY ------- NO CERTIFICATION STANDARDS FOR THE AIRCRAFT, THE
      > ENGINE, OR ANY OTHER COMPONENT ON THE AIRCRAFT.----
      > YES IT GOES AGAINST ALL OUR TRAINING------BUT THEN AGAIN SO DID
      THE
      > WRIGHT BROTHER'S FLYER.
      >
      > REMEMBER -- THIS AIRCRAFT WILL CARRY A PINK, SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS
      > CERTIFICATE, WITH THE CATEGORY/DESIGNATION OF EXPERIMENTAL. FOR
      THE
      > PURPOSE OF OPERATING AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT.
      >
      > ******Chuck Writes - Note the term "designation" in association
      with
      > Category/Designation. This is as it appears upon the pink
      > Airworthiness Certificate that is it be carried aboard the aircraft
      > and is granted by the FAA/DAR.
      >
      > It is NOT to be confused with Category/Class.
      > On the "Special" Airworthiness Certificate, Category =
      Experimental /
      > Designation is limited to "Manned free ballon" or "Glider"
      >
      > It is the BUILDER that makes "designation".
      >
      > The definition of "Designation", is to ascribe a name or
      identity.
      > The FAA purpose of "designation" upon the A/W certificate, is to
      > allow an FAA field inspector to determine the Pilot requirements of
      > the aircraft being inspected. This intent and definition is
      stated
      > by AFS and 2 separate MIDO's.
      > There is NO criteria or design parameters for the registration
      and
      > Airworthiness of EXPERIMENTAL Aircraft.......including gliders
      > and "motorgliders"...........that's why they call it "EXPERIMENTAL"
      > *************************
      >
      > (Slide show speaker notes continued)
      > THE SECOND CONCEPT IS THAT AN AMATEUR BUILD AIRCRAFT HAS NO LIMITS,
      > NO WEIGHT RESTRICTIONS. NO DESIGN OR SPEED RESTRICTION -----IF A
      > PERSON WANTED TO BUILD A DUPLICATE OF THE HINDENBURG ZEPPELIN, NO
      > FAR WILL STOP THEM AND YOU CAN ISSUE A CERTIFICATE-
      >
      > HERE IS THE CONCEPT BEHIND THE AMATEUR-BUILT PROGRAM----------THE
      > BUILDER, NOT THE FAA OR DAR, DETERMINES THAT THE AIRCRAFT IS
      > AIRWORTHY.
      >
      > WHY THE BUILDER AND NOT US?--- BECAUSE THE FAA REQUIRES NO
      STANDARDS--
      > -----------
      > THE BUILDER SETS THE STANDARDS NOT US----------SO THE BUILDER GETS
      TO
      > SAY THE AIRCRAFT IS AIRWORTHY BECAUSE IT MEETS HIS OR HER
      > STANDARDS. --- WE HAVE NO STANDARDS TO ENFORCE.
      > (end copy, go see for your self)
      > http://www.eaa732.org/homebuilder/amblt.ppt
      >
      > Chuck
    • Chuck Scrivner
      One additional note fron the EAA web site - Joe Norris Wrote; ... Joe Norris writes; I look forward to being involved in this program, he said. The AB- DAR
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
        One additional note fron the EAA web site -
        Joe Norris Wrote;
        > http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/030507_norris.html

        Joe Norris writes;
        "I look forward to being involved in this program," he said. "The AB-
        DAR program will be a real benefit to EAA members and all
        homebuilders."
        Before appointed AB-DARs are authorized to perform inspections, they
        are required to take two FAA courses, Transportation Safety Institute
        Amateur-Built Course and FAA Initial Standardization Seminar for
        Designated Airworthiness Representative, Amateur-Built Aircraft.
        Funding has been approved for these courses but they have yet to be
        scheduled by the FAA.

        ********************************
        Chuck Writes;
        So, I guess I shouldn't be so tough on Joe. He has yet to take the
        above required FAA courses. One of which will include the Power
        Point presentation http://www.eaa732.org/homebuilder/amblt.ppt
        "FAA Initial Standardization Seminar for Designated Airworthiness
        Representatives"
        Chuck
        *************************

        -- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Scrivner"
        <goflyslow2@a...> wrote:
        > Joe Norris Wrote;
        > http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/030507_norris.html
        > EAA'S JOE NORRIS APPOINTED AB-DAR
        >
        > The goal is to develop guidance that would show an applicant how to
        > document that an aircraft meets the requirements for certification
        as
        > a glider. What will be contained in that guidance is yet to be
        > determined, but I would surmise that it will be based upon
        > internationally recognized definitions of a glider.
        >
        >
        > Chuck Wrote;
        > >And Who are you working with in FAA?
        >
        >
        > Joe wrote;
        > AIR-200 and AFS-600 as of right now. Other departments within the
        > agency may become involved as necessary.
        >
        >
        > Chuck Wrote;
        > >Have you consulted with Soaring Society of America, the Vintage
        > >Sailplane Association or the Selflaunch Association?
        >
        >
        > Joe Wrote;
        > I have not as of yet. Do you have any specific contacts you'd care
        > to pass along? I would welcome their input.
        >
        >
        > Chuck Wrote;
        > >Have you consulted manufacturers such as Europa, Blanik, Grob,
        ASW,
        > Sonex/Xenos, Pipistrel, Marske, etc.?
        >
        >
        > Joe Wrote
        > Not as of yet.
        >
        >
        > Chuck Wrote;
        > >Remember, to set those parameters, sets precedence for other
        > >limiting regulations that may someday affect Experimental
        > >Airplanes and EAA.
        >
        > Joe Writes-
        > I believe that developing guidance on this issue would be a great
        > benefit to amateur builders throughout the US. Such guidance will
        > help to protect the interests of pilots with glider ratings on their
        > certificates as well as builders of amateur-built aircraft.
        >
        > Joe
        >
        > ******************************
        > So, Joe,
        > You are not a Certificated Glider Pilot, you have never inspected a
        > Registered Glider for A/W, EAA has no position or support structure
        > for Experimental gliders, you have not conferred with any Soaring
        > Organizations, manufacturers, clubs or individuals related to
        > gliding. And, you have been an AB-DAR for less than a year.
        >
        > Yet, you intend to change and redefine the concept of Experimental
        > Aircraft at it's most basic level (related to Design criteria) by
        > unilateral discussions with FAA as a representative of the EAA.
        > to "clarify" A/W Certification "Requirements" for
        > gliders/motorgliders?
        >
        > Very interesting...........
        > Chuck
        >
        >
        > Pilots Database Search Result
        > Name : NORRIS, JOSEPH BRIAN
        > Pilot's Address : 1951A COUNTY HWY D
        > WISCONSIN RAPIDS, WI, 54495-9330
        > FAA Region : Great Lakes
        > Date of Medical : Apr, 2003
        > Class of Medical : 2
        > Expiration : Apr, 2004
        > Pilot Certificates : Commercial Pilot
        > Airplane Single Engine Land
        > Airplane Single Engine Sea
        > Instrument Airplane
        > Rotorcraft Helicopter
        > : Flight Instructor
        > Airplane Single Engine
        > Rotorcraft Helicopter
        > : Mechanic
        > Airframe
        > Powerplant
        > : Repairman, experimental aircraft builder
        >
        >
        > Again, Please review -
        >
        > --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Scrivner"
        > <goflyslow2@a...> wrote:
        > > FAA PowerPoint presentation- Amatuer Built Airworthiness
        Inspection
        > > Guildelines for FAA Inspectors and DARs
        > >
        > > http://www.eaa732.org/homebuilder/amblt.ppt
        > >
        > > Note particular attention to pages 3, 4, 6, 7,10, 11,12, 13, 55
        and
        > 75
        > >
        > > The below copy is obtained from the speakers notes appended to
        the
        > > presentation.
        > > When accessing the above hot link, RIGHT click on the
        presentation
        > > and select FULL SCREEN. ....then, RIGHT click again, and select
        > > speakers notes.
        > >
        > > A box will appear with the associated verbal lecture that is to
        > > accompany each slide in the presentation. clicking on the full
        > > screen will advance the presentation one slide at a time.
        > >
        > > Below is some of the most relevant and interesting "speakers
        notes"
        > >
        > > FIRST----THE AMATEUR-BUILT CERTIFICATION PROGRAM WAS DEVELOPED
        FOR
        > > THE PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL TO HAVE SOME FUN AND TO BRING NEW AND
        > > SOMETIMES UNIQUE DESIGNS INTO REALITY.
        > >
        > > #1 AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT DO NOT HAVE TO MEET ANY ESTABLISHED
        > > AVIATION STANDARDS
        > >
        > > #2 THEY ARE NOT DESIGN LIMITED TO A SPECIFIC SIZE, NUMBER OF
        > > ENGINES, OR AIRSPEED.
        > >
        > > IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THIS CONCEPT OF NO
        > > DESIGN STANDARDS.
        > >
        > > IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT -- ASK THEM NOW. --- IF
        YOU
        > > DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS THEN NOTHING ELSE IN THE NEXT 2 HOURS WILL
        > > MAKE SENSE.
        > >
        > > AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT DO NOT HAVE TO MEET ESTABLISHED AVIATION
        > > STANDARDS. THIS MEANS THAT FAR PARTS 23 OR 33 OR CAR 3 DOES
        > NOT
        > > APPLY ------- NO CERTIFICATION STANDARDS FOR THE AIRCRAFT, THE
        > > ENGINE, OR ANY OTHER COMPONENT ON THE AIRCRAFT.----
        > > YES IT GOES AGAINST ALL OUR TRAINING------BUT THEN AGAIN SO DID
        > THE
        > > WRIGHT BROTHER'S FLYER.
        > >
        > > REMEMBER -- THIS AIRCRAFT WILL CARRY A PINK, SPECIAL
        AIRWORTHINESS
        > > CERTIFICATE, WITH THE CATEGORY/DESIGNATION OF EXPERIMENTAL. FOR
        > THE
        > > PURPOSE OF OPERATING AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT.
        > >
        > > ******Chuck Writes - Note the term "designation" in association
        > with
        > > Category/Designation. This is as it appears upon the pink
        > > Airworthiness Certificate that is it be carried aboard the
        aircraft
        > > and is granted by the FAA/DAR.
        > >
        > > It is NOT to be confused with Category/Class.
        > > On the "Special" Airworthiness Certificate, Category =
        > Experimental /
        > > Designation is limited to "Manned free ballon" or "Glider"
        > >
        > > It is the BUILDER that makes "designation".
        > >
        > > The definition of "Designation", is to ascribe a name or
        > identity.
        > > The FAA purpose of "designation" upon the A/W certificate, is to
        > > allow an FAA field inspector to determine the Pilot requirements
        of
        > > the aircraft being inspected. This intent and definition is
        > stated
        > > by AFS and 2 separate MIDO's.
        > > There is NO criteria or design parameters for the registration
        > and
        > > Airworthiness of EXPERIMENTAL Aircraft.......including gliders
        > > and "motorgliders"...........that's why they call
        it "EXPERIMENTAL"
        > > *************************
        > >
        > > (Slide show speaker notes continued)
        > > THE SECOND CONCEPT IS THAT AN AMATEUR BUILD AIRCRAFT HAS NO
        LIMITS,
        > > NO WEIGHT RESTRICTIONS. NO DESIGN OR SPEED RESTRICTION -----IF A
        > > PERSON WANTED TO BUILD A DUPLICATE OF THE HINDENBURG ZEPPELIN,
        NO
        > > FAR WILL STOP THEM AND YOU CAN ISSUE A CERTIFICATE-
        > >
        > > HERE IS THE CONCEPT BEHIND THE AMATEUR-BUILT PROGRAM----------
        THE
        > > BUILDER, NOT THE FAA OR DAR, DETERMINES THAT THE AIRCRAFT IS
        > > AIRWORTHY.
        > >
        > > WHY THE BUILDER AND NOT US?--- BECAUSE THE FAA REQUIRES NO
        > STANDARDS--
        > > -----------
        > > THE BUILDER SETS THE STANDARDS NOT US----------SO THE BUILDER
        GETS
        > TO
        > > SAY THE AIRCRAFT IS AIRWORTHY BECAUSE IT MEETS HIS OR HER
        > > STANDARDS. --- WE HAVE NO STANDARDS TO ENFORCE.
        > > (end copy, go see for your self)
        > > http://www.eaa732.org/homebuilder/amblt.ppt
        > >
        > > Chuck
      • Chuck Scrivner
        Joe Norris EAA Aviation Information Services EAA Aviation Center, Oshkosh, WI 888-322-4636, extension 6806 jnorris@eaa.org We are pleased to provide this info
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
          Joe Norris
          EAA Aviation Information Services
          EAA Aviation Center, Oshkosh, WI
          888-322-4636, extension 6806
          jnorris@...

          We are pleased to provide this info as an EAA membership benefit.
          To ensure that this service continues, renew your membership or join
          EAA today by calling 800-843-3612 or 920-426-5912.
          Visit EAA on the web at www.eaa.org
          ====================

          Chuck Wrote;
          Dear EAA,
          Could you please give guidance and regulatory reference (FAR or AC
          #) related to the below questions concerning Experimental Aircraft
          Airworthiness.

          Upon FAA Form 8130-7, Special Airworthiness Certificate, Item A is
          for Category/Designation and Purpose.

          ie;
          A. Category/Designation - Experimental (Manned Free Balloon) or
          (glider)
          Purpose - Operating Amateur-Built Aircraft

          Question - Why is it required for balloons and gliders to be placed
          in Parentheses ( ) after Experimental, per 8130.2E Paragraph 239
          Sect.a(1), as opposed to other aircraft (Rotocraft. Gyrocraft,
          Airships)

          and

          Is the "Designation" (Manned Free Balloon - or Glider) based upon
          Experimental design standards criteria, operating limitations,
          medical requirements? And, where might that information be referenced

          and,

          As opposed to Category/Class as it relates to aircraft,
          How and where is Category/Designation defined.
          Specifically "designation". I understand "Category"
          as "Experimental" is defined within 8130.2E Paragraph 239.
          Thank you for looking into this rather "esoteric" question.

          Charles Scrivner
          Private Pilot
          *****************************

          Hello Chuck,

          Paragraph 239a, section A, item (1) is all the guidance there is on
          the subject of what goes on the Category line of the airworthiness
          certificate. It is up to the inspector to determine if a "modifier"
          such as "manned free balloon" or "glider" is appropriate for the
          aircraft being inspected.

          It appears that this would be related to what type of pilot
          certificate would be needed in order to operate the aircraft.
          However, in the case of an amateur-built aircraft, this may be a moot
          point, depending on how that individual aircraft's operating
          limitations are worded.

          The operating limitations are issued as a part of the aircraft's
          airworthiness certificate, and call out the parameters within which
          that particular aircraft can be operated. There will be a statement
          in the operating limitations regarding what certificates and/or
          endorsements are required to be held in order to act as pilot in
          command of that aircraft.

          Depending on when the operating limitations were issued, and whether
          the issuing office decided to add any additional limitations beyond
          the basic requirements called out in the FAA guidance (Order 8130.2),
          the pilot may or may not need the appropriate category/class ratings
          for the aircraft in question. For example, the operating limitations
          may contain the following statement:

          "The pilot in command of this aircraft must hold a pilot certificate
          or an authorized instructor's logbook endorsement."

          This statement simply requires the pilot in command to hold a pilot
          certificate (no mention of category/class ratings) or an instructor's
          endorsement. If this statement is in the operating limitations, it
          would be technically legal for a pilot with a glider rating to fly a
          single engine airplane (or a balloon). However, this statement is
          usually accompanied by the following language:

          The pilot in command also must meet the requirements of § 61.31(e),
          (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j), as appropriate.

          This statement requires that the pilot meet the requirements of the
          specific endorsements as they apply to the aircraft, such as high
          performance airplane and/or complex airplane, or glider launch
          endorsements. I don't know of any instructors who would be willing
          to give these endorsements to someone who doesn't hold a
          category/class rating appropriate to the endorsement. So, as a
          practical matter, the pilot would need to hold the appropriate
          category/class rating in order to meet the endorsement requirements
          as called out in the operating limitations. However, for an aircraft
          that does not require any of the endorsements called out in 61.31,
          the pilot would simply need to hold a pilot certificate if the
          aircraft had these statements in the operating limitations.

          Another possible statement in the operating limitations is as follows:

          "The pilot in command of this aircraft must hold an appropriate
          category/class rating."

          Note that this limitation contains the requirement for an appropriate
          category/class rating. The word "appropriate" is key, because if
          this limitation is present, then the pilot would need to hold the
          category/class rating appropriate to the aircraft.

          So, it's very important for the pilot to familiarize him/herself with
          the operating limitations issued to the aircraft in question. The
          wording of these operating limitations will determine what pilot
          certificates and ratings are required for the pilot in command of
          that aircraft.

          In view of all this, you can see that the airworthiness certificate
          and the operating limitations will both have to be checked and
          compared against each other in order to determine what certificates
          and/or ratings the pilot will need in order to operate that
          particular aircraft.

          Hope this helps. Please provide your EAA number in future
          communications.

          Joe Norris
          EAA Aviation Information Services
          EAA Aviation Center, Oshkosh, WI
          888-322-4636, extension 6806
          jnorris@...
        • Joe
          ... Chuck, I didn t say for sure that anything would change. I said we are looking at the situation. Whether or not changes are made, or additional guidance
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
            > you intend to change and redefine the concept of Experimental
            > Aircraft at it's most basic level (related to Design criteria) by
            > unilateral discussions with FAA as a representative of the EAA.
            > to "clarify" A/W Certification "Requirements" for
            > gliders/motorgliders?

            Chuck,

            I didn't say for sure that anything would change. I said we are
            looking at the situation. Whether or not changes are made, or
            additional guidance is issued (which is all we are really interested
            in) will depend on what the FAA decides. It's their ballgame, not
            ours.

            The reason we are looking into this is mostly due to the flurry of
            calls and emails we have received from EAA members (and non-members)
            regarding this issue, which stemmed primarily from the discussions on
            this and other web groups.

            All we would like to see is more complete guidance on this issue, so
            that there isn't so much murk in the water. There may or may not be
            any changes in how aircraft are certificated. Again, that's not up
            to me, that's up to the FAA.

            You could have had the forethought to remove my home address from
            your posting of my pilot certificate info, but alas, you did not.
            Thanks!

            Joe Norris
          • Joe
            ... Actually, Chuck, I am indeed fully authorized to conduct amateur- built airworthiness inspections. I have completed the FAA and TSI training in OKC, and
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
              > So, I guess I shouldn't be so tough on Joe. He has yet to take the
              > above required FAA courses. One of which will include the Power
              > Point presentation http://www.eaa732.org/homebuilder/amblt.ppt
              > "FAA Initial Standardization Seminar for Designated Airworthiness
              > Representatives"

              Actually, Chuck, I am indeed fully authorized to conduct amateur-
              built airworthiness inspections. I have completed the FAA and TSI
              training in OKC, and have had my orientation from MSP MIDO. I have
              airworthiness certificates in hand, and stand ready to help amateur-
              builders certificate their aircraft.

              See the following news release:

              http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/040123_norris.html

              You're welcome to be as hard on me as you want! <grin>

              The FAA and TSI training did NOT include the poperpoint presentation
              you are so fond of. That presentation did not come from FAA HQ in
              OKC or Washington DC. It's difficult to decypher exactly what it's
              origin is, but my guess is that a FSDO put it together in accordance
              with their understanding of the certification process. Note that it
              is an EAA chapter web site that it resides on, not an official FAA
              web site. The FAA in OKC has their own presentation which is based
              on the national guidance found in FAA Order 8130.2 and other
              pertinent documents.

              Joe
            • Chuck Scrivner
              ... presentation you are so fond of. That presentation did not come from FAA HQ in OKC or Washington DC. It s difficult to decypher exactly what it s
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
                --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <tailwheel@a...> wrote:
                > The FAA and TSI training did NOT include the poperpoint
                presentation you are so fond of. That presentation did not come
                from FAA HQ in OKC or Washington DC. It's difficult to decypher
                exactly what it's origin is, but my guess is that a FSDO put it
                together in accordance with their understanding of the certification
                process. Note that it is an EAA chapter web site that it resides
                on, not an official FAA web site. The FAA in OKC has their own
                presentation which is based on the national guidance found in FAA
                Order 8130.2 and other pertinent documents.
                > Joe
                ***************
                Chuck Writes;
                Yes, it is an FAA training aid and has nothing to do with EAA

                http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/pp.cfm

                Located under AMBLT.PPT

                It was just easier to locate via the EAA web site. (people didn't
                have to search the entire listing).

                (many other good presentations there also)

                It's original origin is from Washington, AIR-220, a little higher in
                the food chain of authority.
                Chuck
              • Chuck Scrivner
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
                  <
                  "Joe" <tailwheel@a...> wrote:
                  > > The FAA and TSI training did NOT include the poperpoint
                  > presentation you are so fond of. That presentation did not come
                  > from FAA HQ in OKC or Washington DC. It's difficult to decypher
                  > exactly what it's origin is, > > Joe
                  > ***************
                  Here is the "TSI" that you are refering to.
                  http://www.tsi.dot.gov/divisions/Aviation/aviation.htm
                  TSI - Transport Safety Institute
                  a division of the U.S. Dept. of Transportation.

                  And yes, they did produce the PowerPoint slide presentation.
                  You will note the TSI production # in the lower left corner of every
                  slide

                  > http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/pp.cfm
                  >
                  > Located under AMBLT.PPT
                  >
                  > It was just easier to locate via the EAA web site. (people didn't
                  > have to search the entire listing).
                  >
                  > (many other good presentations there also)

                  And, you can download the PowerPoint viewer at that site.
                  >
                  > It's original origin is from Washington, AIR-220, a little higher
                  in the food chain of authority.
                  > Chuck
                • Joe
                  Hi Chuck, ... You ll note that the PowerPoint presentation at the site mentioned above is different than the one at the EAA chapter web site that you linked
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 2, 2004
                    Hi Chuck,

                    > http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/pp.cfm
                    >
                    > Located under AMBLT.PPT

                    You'll note that the PowerPoint presentation at the site mentioned
                    above is different than the one at the EAA chapter web site that you
                    linked before. Also note that the one mentioned above is dated
                    1997. There have been at least three full updates and several
                    changes to Order 8130.2 since then, as well as several revisions of
                    other pertienent guidance. Still, the basic info is correct for the
                    most part, although there are a few inaccuracies.

                    Joe
                  • Joe
                    Hi Chuck, Upon further review, I did note that the ORL FSDO web site that you linked regarding the amateur-built PowerPoint presentation did also include the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 2, 2004
                      Hi Chuck,

                      Upon further review, I did note that the ORL FSDO web site that you
                      linked regarding the amateur-built PowerPoint presentation did also
                      include the one that can be fould via the EAA chapter link you
                      provided earlier. Interesting that the date of the PowerPoint is
                      listed as 97, while the slides have a different date. Must be
                      someone didn't update the listing on the table.

                      That doesn't change the fact that this presentation is not used for
                      the amateur-built DAR training course. Not that it matters, as the
                      basic info regarding regulations and FAA guidance is the same. The
                      FAA guys at OKC have their own PowerPoint presentation that they use
                      to cover the regulations and guidance, which covers much of the same
                      material, but includes more detailed info on the guidance and
                      paperwork as well as info on the DAR's responsibilities, privilages,
                      and limitations.

                      > Here is the "TSI" that you are refering to.
                      > http://www.tsi.dot.gov/divisions/Aviation/aviation.htm
                      > TSI - Transport Safety Institute
                      > a division of the U.S. Dept. of Transportation.

                      Yep, that's them! I know Chris Lawrence, and have visited her office
                      in OKC. Very nice lady. In fact, all the TSI folks are great people
                      to work with.

                      Joe
                    • Chuck Scrivner
                      ... ******************** Chuck Writes Yes, I see that the original issue date is 10/97. I also note that many of the current regulations date back to the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 2, 2004
                        "Joe" <tailwheel@a...> wrote:
                        > Hi Chuck,
                        > http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/pp.cfm
                        > >Located under AMBLT.PPT
                        >
                        > You'll note that the PowerPoint presentation at the site mentioned
                        > above is different than the one at the EAA chapter web site that you
                        > linked before. Also note that the one mentioned above is dated
                        > 1997. There have been at least three full updates and several
                        > changes to Order 8130.2 since then, as well as several revisions of
                        > other pertienent guidance. Still, the basic info is correct for the
                        > most part, although there are a few inaccuracies.
                        > Joe
                        ********************
                        Chuck Writes
                        Yes, I see that the original issue date is 10/97.
                        I also note that many of the current regulations date back to the
                        1950's. I don't see the connection or rational of the argument.

                        Yes, there have been some minor updates to 8130.2. But, none of
                        those updates are related to Experimental Amateur-Built Aircraft.
                        (8130.2 covers ALL aircrft including Standard, Limited, Provisional,
                        STC's)
                        No, I don't see that there is a difference between the EAA linked
                        site and the TSI site presentations. Associated "speaker" notes are
                        even the same. (Alaska FSDO changed the "speaker notes), But the
                        Original formate is shown from TSI.

                        The Dates on the Slides automatically show todays date. (cute trick
                        by TSI).

                        I may be wrong though.

                        Could you reference just those More pertinent guidance changes as
                        related to Amateur-Built Aircraft. And, how it differes from the
                        information given by the TSI presentation?

                        Your information could save a lot of EAA builders some grief.

                        I CAN point out 2 discrepencies.
                        #1.
                        Not ALL 2 place engine driven aircraft are required to have an ELT.
                        #2.
                        A fireproof identification placard MAY be placed within the cockpit
                        of some aircraft. Hint, download the waiver. No need to be a member
                        of any ORG/or club.

                        But these are minor things.

                        The basic premise remains. There are no - criteria/design
                        standards/limitations or subjective approvals of DAR's related to the
                        Registration and Airworthiness of Experimental Aircraft (including
                        gliders and "motorized"-gliders)

                        This is a GOOD thing.
                        It is freedom for the experimental builder to design and adapt any
                        design for any purpose. It allows for the inventive spirit that the
                        US is so proud of.

                        Without it, No air-car, SpaceShipOne, jet backpacks, flying disks,
                        solar powered albatros, pedal powered gliders, weightshift airplanes,
                        etc.
                        And MY favorite ........my STOL, high lift/high drag, open air, wire-
                        braced pusher, slope soaring.......Quicksilver MX selflaunch glider
                        N-69QT

                        The DAR/Inspector is there to assure
                        registration/paperwork/workmanship and to assign operating
                        limitations among other things.
                        Not to impose design standards for the AB Certificate.
                        Chuck
                      • Chuck Scrivner
                        One last crack at it..(where s the dead horse?).....until I receive further correspondence from FAA. Copy of speaker notes pertinent to this discussion.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 2, 2004
                          One last crack at it..(where's the dead horse?).....until I receive
                          further correspondence from FAA.

                          Copy of speaker notes pertinent to this discussion.

                          http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/pp.cfm

                          MY NAME IS -------insert name------ AND I WORK IN THE PRODUCTION AND
                          AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATION DIVISION OF THE AIRCRAFT CERTIFICATION
                          SERVICE AT FAA HEADQUARTERS IN WASHINGTON, DC.

                          ONE OF MY RESPONSIBILITIES IS TO PROVIDE PROGRAM OVERSIGHT AND POLICY
                          DEVELOPMENT FOR THE AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT PROGRAM.
                          AT THIS POINT I WOULD LIKE TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND THANK MR. BILL O'BRIEN,
                          OF AFS-300 FAME, FOR WITHOUT HIS HELP, THE PROGRAM YOU ARE ABOUT
                          TO EXPERIENCE WOULD NOT EXIST.

                          THE PURPOSE OF THIS PRESENTATION IS TO REVIEW THE AMATEUR-BUILT
                          AIRCRAFT CERTIFICATION PROCESS; EXAMINE THE BUILDERS
                          RESPONSIBILITIES DURING CONSTRUCTION AND YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES AS
                          INSPECTORS AND INVESTIGATORS TO ENSURE SAFE OPERATION OF THESE
                          AIRCRAFT.

                          I WILL TRY AND PROVIDE THE BASIC INFORMATION AND GUIDELINES THAT YOU
                          WILL NEED TO CERTIFICATE AN AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT.

                          BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT WE HAVE LESS THEN 2 HOURS TO COMPLETE THIS
                          PRESENTATION I'LL ASK THAT YOU TRY AND SAVE YOUR QUESTIONS UNTILL
                          THE END, AND I WILL TRY TO ANSWER THEM AT THAT TIME. WE WILL TAKE A
                          SHORT BREAK SOMEWHERE NEAR THE MIDDLE OF THIS PROGRAM.

                          THE HOPE IS TO USE THE NEXT 2 HOURS TO TEACH AND STANDARDIZE THE
                          AMATEUR BUILT CERTIFICATION PROCESS. YOU WILL NOT ONLY KNOW MORE
                          ABOUT AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT, BUT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO CERTIFICATE
                          ONE. IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN WE ARE DONE, IF I DID WHAT I AM SUPPOSE
                          TO DO, COMMUNICATE THE PROCESS AND ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS, THEN YOU
                          SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO OUT OF HERE AND BE ABLE TO INSPECT AN AIRCRAFT
                          WITH THE CONFIDENCE KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE PERFORMED YOUR JOB
                          CORRECTLY, AND ISSUE A SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE FOR AN
                          AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT, WITH VERY LITTLE SUPERVISION.

                          FIRST----
                          THE AMATEUR-BUILT CERTIFICATION PROGRAM IS FOR PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS,
                          NOT COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISES TO MAKE A BUSINESS OUT OF CONSTRUCTING
                          AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT FOR PROFIT. IT IS NOT DESIGNED FOR
                          COMPANIES TO BUILD AND OPERATE EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT THAT WERE
                          BOUGHT FROM AIRCRAFT DESIGNERS OR FROM KIT PLANS MANUFACTURERS.

                          IT WAS DEVELOPED FOR THE PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL TO HAVE SOME FUN AND TO
                          BRING NEW AND SOMETIMES UNIQUE DESIGNS INTO REALITY.

                          AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT DO NOT HAVE TO MEET ANY ESTABLISHED AVIATION
                          ATANDARDS.

                          THEY ARE NOT DESIGN LIMITED TO A SPECIFIC SIZE, AIRSPEED, WINGSPAN,
                          NUMBER OF ENGINES OR ANYTHING.

                          IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THIS CONCEPT OF NO
                          DESIGN STANDARDS. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT -- ASK THEM
                          NOW. --- IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS THEN NOTHING ELSE IN THE NEXT
                          2 HOURS WILL MAKE SENSE.
                          AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT DO NOT HAVE TO MEET ESTABLISHED AVIATION
                          STANDARDS.

                          THIS MEANS THAT FAR PARTS 23 OR 33 OR CAR 3 DOES NOT APPLY ------
                          - NO CERTIFICATION STANDARDS FOR THE AIRCRAFT, THE ENGINE, OR ANY
                          OTHER COMPONENT ON THE AIRCRAFT.---- YES IT GOES AGAINST ALL OUR
                          TRAINING------BUT THEN AGAIN SO DID THE WRIGHT BROTHER'S FLYER.

                          REMEMBER --
                          THIS AIRCRAFT WILL CARRY A PINK, SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS
                          CERTIFICATE, WITH THE CATEGORY/DESIGNATION OF EXPERIMENTAL.

                          THE SECOND CONCEPT IS THAT AN AMATEUR BUILD AIRCRAFT HAS NO LIMITS,
                          NO WEIGHT RESTRICTIONS .NO DESIGN OR SPEED RESTRICTION -----IF A
                          PERSON WANTED TO BUILD A DUPLICATE OF THE HINDENBURG ZEPPELIN, NO
                          FAR WILL STOP THEM AND YOU CAN ISSUE A CERTIFICATE------BUT I WOULD
                          RECOMMEND HELIUM AS THE LIFTING GAS.

                          THERE ARE NO DESIGN STANDARD AS I SAID BUT---------AND THIS IS A
                          PRETTY BIG BUT------------THE BUILDER STILL HAS TO MEET PARTS 21,
                          39, 45, 47, 65, AND 91, OF THE FARS. (Note, FAR 1.1 Definitions are
                          NOT included)

                          HERE IS THE CONCEPT BEHIND THE AMATEUR-BUILT PROGRAM----------THE
                          BUILDER, NOT THE FAA OR DAR, DETERMINES THAT THE AIRCRAFT IS
                          AIRWORTHY.

                          WHY THE BUILDER AND NOT US?--- BECAUSE THE FAA REQUIRES NO STANDARDS-
                          ------------THE BUILDER SETS THE STANDARDS NOT US----------SO THE
                          BUILDER GETS TO SAY THE AIRCRAFT IS AIRWORTHY BECAUSE IT MEETS HIS
                          OR HER STANDARDS. --- WE HAVE NO STANDARDS TO ENFORCE.

                          THE TERM IS DEFINED IN CHAPTER 1 OF FAA ORDER 8130.2. IN ALL RELATED
                          DOCUMENTS THE TERM INFERS RELATION TO TYPE CERTIFICATED AIRCRAFT.--
                          -

                          NO ONE OF ANY AUTHORITY WILL SAY THAT AN AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT
                          HAS ANY CONNECTION TO A TYPE DESIGN, EVEN AS IT IS PRESENTED ON THE
                          APPLICATION FOR THE AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE.

                          End copy

                          Chuck

                          --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Scrivner"
                          <goflyslow2@a...> wrote:
                          > "Joe" <tailwheel@a...> wrote:
                          > > Hi Chuck,
                          > > http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/pp.cfm
                          > > >Located under AMBLT.PPT
                          > >
                          > > You'll note that the PowerPoint presentation at the site
                          mentioned
                          > > above is different than the one at the EAA chapter web site that
                          you
                          > > linked before. Also note that the one mentioned above is dated
                          > > 1997. There have been at least three full updates and several
                          > > changes to Order 8130.2 since then, as well as several revisions
                          of
                          > > other pertienent guidance. Still, the basic info is correct for
                          the
                          > > most part, although there are a few inaccuracies.
                          > > Joe
                          > ********************
                          > Chuck Writes
                          > Yes, I see that the original issue date is 10/97.
                          > I also note that many of the current regulations date back to the
                          > 1950's. I don't see the connection or rational of the argument.
                          >
                          > Yes, there have been some minor updates to 8130.2. But, none of
                          > those updates are related to Experimental Amateur-Built Aircraft.
                          > (8130.2 covers ALL aircrft including Standard, Limited,
                          Provisional,
                          > STC's)
                          > No, I don't see that there is a difference between the EAA linked
                          > site and the TSI site presentations. Associated "speaker" notes
                          are
                          > even the same. (Alaska FSDO changed the "speaker notes), But the
                          > Original formate is shown from TSI.
                          >
                          > The Dates on the Slides automatically show todays date. (cute trick
                          > by TSI).
                          >
                          > I may be wrong though.
                          >
                          > Could you reference just those More pertinent guidance changes as
                          > related to Amateur-Built Aircraft. And, how it differes from the
                          > information given by the TSI presentation?
                          >
                          > Your information could save a lot of EAA builders some grief.
                          >
                          > I CAN point out 2 discrepencies.
                          > #1.
                          > Not ALL 2 place engine driven aircraft are required to have an
                          ELT.
                          > #2.
                          > A fireproof identification placard MAY be placed within the
                          cockpit
                          > of some aircraft. Hint, download the waiver. No need to be a
                          member
                          > of any ORG/or club.
                          >
                          > But these are minor things.
                          >
                          > The basic premise remains. There are no - criteria/design
                          > standards/limitations or subjective approvals of DAR's related to
                          the
                          > Registration and Airworthiness of Experimental Aircraft (including
                          > gliders and "motorized"-gliders)
                          >
                          > This is a GOOD thing.
                          > It is freedom for the experimental builder to design and adapt any
                          > design for any purpose. It allows for the inventive spirit that
                          the
                          > US is so proud of.
                          >
                          > Without it, No air-car, SpaceShipOne, jet backpacks, flying disks,
                          > solar powered albatros, pedal powered gliders, weightshift
                          airplanes,
                          > etc.
                          > And MY favorite ........my STOL, high lift/high drag, open air,
                          wire-
                          > braced pusher, slope soaring.......Quicksilver MX selflaunch glider
                          > N-69QT
                          >
                          > The DAR/Inspector is there to assure
                          > registration/paperwork/workmanship and to assign operating
                          > limitations among other things.
                          > Not to impose design standards for the AB Certificate.
                          > Chuck
                        • Chuck Scrivner
                          New Photos uploaded of Lazair twin engine Ampfib. go to Photos section
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 4, 2004
                            New Photos uploaded of Lazair twin engine Ampfib.
                            go to Photos section
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