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Re: Transponders in NORDO aircraft

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  • Dan
    ... Peter you may have the wrong idea as to why I even asked the FAA. I don’t proclaim to be a writer. It would be interesting to see the version you sent
    Message 1 of 120 , Oct 1, 2009
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      Posted by: "Peter Walker" peterwalker58@...

      Hello
       just a little bit too much information. The only thing that you left out is "When is the working party going to be formed to make law mandating  a transponder on radio controlled model aircraft and anything bigger". 
      The question should have been phased as a technical specification of a minimum system for an aircraft that requires a transponder and the limits that would apply to an aircraft that is deemed NOT to so equipped
      I hope you didnt ask the cops a similar sort of question like" Where I can go drink this 6 pack" when you were 16....
      Peter


      Peter you may have the wrong idea as to why I even asked the FAA.  I don’t proclaim to be a writer.  It would be interesting to see the version you sent to the FAA, perhaps your wording is much better.  Was just trying to hush the seemingly 3000 emails regarding the subject.
      During the beginning of Sport Pilot many were saying they didn’t have to put the altitude encoding and transponder equipment on their machines because they didn’t have an alternator, just the lighting coil on their Rotax 2 and 4 stroke engines.  I said no, the way I understood the rule was if your using the engine to keep the electrical system charged/sustained then you have an “engine driven” electrical system.
      Hence the reason for trying to resolve the question via the FAA.

      In addition, to find out if the SP/LSA rules would help prevent yet another near miss like we had here at MSP.  The answer is ‘not likely’ because the two pilots involved in the near miss, along with many others around the nation still haven’t put the transponder and altitude encoding equipment on their machines.

      Near as I can tell they thought the class B tier altitudes were AGL.  Field elevation at their airport is about 900ft., add another 3,500 and your at 4,400 msl, a jet liner cleared to 4,000 msl is then about 400-500 ft. below you.  Just like the trike pilot’s description.
      Waaay back in 83 as a meager UL student pilot I knew the difference between AGL and MSL in a TCA.  But somehow these two, one a UFI, the other a UFIE at that time didn’t know the difference. If one knew he certainly didn’t contact the other by radio.

      In the Files section I’ve posted the trike pilots version of the Near miss:
      You’ll also find the version by the first officer of the Airbus A320

      And of course my letter to the FAA regarding equipment requirements is posted there as well.

      I can’t help but put part of the blame on GPS as well, if they didn’t have GPS receivers I don’t think they would’ve made the flight.  Low ceiling, visibility not the greatest, neither pilot adept at x-country flight by just using an aero chart and compass, made even more difficult since they couldn’t see the ground that well “with no ground visible to speak of. Just an occational glimps of green.”.

      Although the airline pilots and ALPA wanted this to be made well known, it never made the 10 o’clock news because they didn’t want to scare passengers into thinking it’s not safe to fly, having passengers think the near misses couldn’t be avoided.  At least that’s the way Brit Etzold from ALPA relayed it to me.

      This topic apparently wasn’t discussed in detail enough back in March 2006 with the thread:  Class B/C/D and Mode C Veil issues
      Here’s the message I posted regarding it back then:

      On 9/25/2009 Jim Bair wrote:  
      Mike's description of the rules is perfect.  I would only add that the way for more restrictive rules to occur is for some wayward UL pilot (who doesn't need a transponder) to screw up and actually violate the Class B (unaware of exactly where they are or knowing but unaware that they shouldn't be there) and have a near miss with an airliner.  That is exactly how we keep getting saddled with more and more rules that we would prefer we didn't have. 

      Jim must mean have yet ANOTHER near miss, again and again, we already had the near miss, just before Sport Pilot became rule.


      Dan Mattsen

    • apollonorthamerica
      Ahhh ... ok I see what you guys are saying now. Yes of course. Sorry I was focused on getting your thrown out trike more than anything. Was worth a try :) Abid
      Message 120 of 120 , Oct 5, 2009
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        Ahhh ... ok I see what you guys are saying now. Yes of course.
        Sorry I was focused on getting your thrown out trike more than anything. Was worth a try :)
        Abid

        --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bair" <JimBair@...> wrote:
        >
        > OK, I get your joke now. Unfortunately for you, that trike is already sold
        > and won't be thrown out. Yes, I am aware that it was a kit. My son and I
        > built it. It was the trike he learned to fly in.
        >
        > I think you are missing something in our conversation here. The trike CG
        > will vary depending upon loading. If you are in the front seat, it will
        > have a different CG than if I am in the front seat. And in either case, the
        > CG will be in the vicinity of the rear seat and the mains will hang lower
        > than the nose and everything will be fine.
        >
        > Jim
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: apollonorthamerica
        > To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:51 AM
        > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group WSC Weight and Balance
        >
        >
        > Aerotrike Safari in the US came as a kit (not an approved kit) so its
        > quite possible their manual said that. But in a manufactured trike, that
        > location is selected for you and done. You don't to guess where it will be
        > exactly. It is only in one spot figured out by the manufacturer. Do you know
        > if your Aerotrike Safari carriage was constructed from a kit?
        > I know the DTA manual for the Voyager. It doesn't say anything like that.
        > That was a just a joke. But I would suggest you throw it out anyway, only
        > after letting me know the time and place two days in advance :).
        > Abid
        >
        > --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bair" <JimBair@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Abid,
        > > I believe that was pretty close to the wording in my Aerotrike, which
        > was a
        > > fine trike. I have no idea why you would make a comment like "Throw that
        > > trike out the window" over wordage such as "CG should be in the vicinity
        > of
        > > the rear seat." Frankly, that seems like quite a common sense approach
        > to
        > > me. The rear seat is pretty much the recommended CG position, is it not?
        > > So what's the problem?
        > >
        > > And maybe it was my DTA manual as far as that goes. I'm not really sure.
        > > And so what if it was? That's a fine trike, too, and if the CG is pretty
        > > much in the location of my back seat, I know I won't land on my nose
        > wheel.
        > > So what's the big deal? I'm not even sure I have a translated POH for
        > the
        > > DTA. What does it say the CG range should be? In English, please, not
        > > Urdu. :) (Or French. I already have that version.)
        > >
        > > Jim
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: apollonorthamerica
        > > To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 11:23 PM
        > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group WSC Weight and Balance
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Jim,
        > > I have never read this in any trike POH:
        > > "CG should be in the vicinity of the rear seat."
        > >
        > > Throw that trike out the window :).
        > > And if its your DTA POH that says that. May be its a bad translation
        > from
        > > French but throw it out anyway, and let me know when and where, I'll
        > clean
        > > it all up for you :).
        > > Abid
        > >
        > > --- In Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bair" <JimBair@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Gary,
        > > > Trikes often have some fairly vague things in the POH like, "CG should
        > > be in
        > > > the vicinity of the rear seat." And if it is, quite honestly that is
        > > fine.
        > > > As you know, in fixed wing as well there is some leeway even though
        > the
        > > W&B
        > > > chart is very black and white. If you find yourself in the upper right
        > > > corner of the chart (like the typical FAA test example. haha) and then
        > > you
        > > > add just 2 more pounds and you're outside the line, it doesn't mean
        > the
        > > > plane will automatically crash. The really critical thing in trike CG
        > is
        > > > that it result in the mains being lower than the nose wheel so you
        > don't
        > > > land on the nose.
        > > >
        > > > As far as the wing position, sometimes I find it more clear to think
        > in
        > > > extremes. If you hang the trike from the nose of the wing, it would
        > fly
        > > > very fast and very straight down. If you hang it from the trailing
        > edge,
        > > > the wing would go nose up and stall. But somewhere in the middle is
        > the
        > > > magic spot where everything is in balance and it flies perfectly. That
        > > > occurs at probably in the vicinity of 20-35% MAC just like an
        > airplane.
        > > > (Somewhere forward of center of the wing.) Don't get hung up on the
        > > precise
        > > > numbers, just the concept. (I'm not trying to set up some quibble
        > > thing.)
        > > > The manufacturer sets the wing up so you have a range in which to hang
        > > the
        > > > trike from it. And that range usually isn't very large. Like 1 1/2" or
        > > so.
        > > > Can you go outside that? Usually, but you're now experimenting. My
        > > > Aerotrike flew much better when I drilled a new hole about an inch
        > > forward
        > > > of the former most forward hole. You just can't get too carried away.
        > > >
        > > > All of this stuff is why you do W&B on an experimental before you even
        > > fly
        > > > it. If you design and build an airplane in your garage (perfectly
        > legal)
        > > > the FAA will come inspect it for you and look at your W&B calcs as
        > part
        > > of
        > > > your required paperwork. If the CG is way outside the normal range of
        > > where
        > > > it normally lies in relation to the MAC of the wing, they will do you
        > > the
        > > > favor of letting you know your craft will most likely crash. This is
        > > > something you'd like to know before flying the thing. Keep in mind,
        > this
        > > > whole thread started because an individual brought up the fact he had
        > > hit on
        > > > the nose wheel a couple of times and that causes real control
        > problems.
        > > > This is why CG is important.
        > > >
        > > > Jim
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: Gary Orpe
        > > > To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:55 AM
        > > > Subject: RE: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group WSC Weight and Balance
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Does it make any difference what position the wing is in? I know that
        > > you
        > > > have to have a known position on fixed wing and then measure. Also CG
        > > > doesn't mean anything unless you have the manufacturers data on what
        > the
        > > CG
        > > > should be and the way to measure it.
        > > >
        > > > Are trikes different than this?
        > > >
        > > > Gary O.
        > > > N181RL
        > > > 661 746-4780
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
        > > > [mailto:Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bair
        > > > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 6:58 AM
        > > > To: Sport_Aircraft@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: Re: Light-Sport Aircraft Yahoo group WSC Weight and Balance
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > >More likely W&L Weight and Loading.
        > > >
        > > > > Not really. The Weight and loading is easy.
        > > > > We add your weight, my weight, the fuel, and the trike,
        > > > > and see if it adds up to less than 992. It does.
        > > > > I can do that in my head.
        > > > > No, our concern is what you mentioned about the
        > > > > nose wheel hanging lower.
        > > >
        > > > You must have done this plenty of times Jim,
        > > > ... it must be quick and easy for you.
        > > >
        > > > How about doing just one more for the considered
        > > > loading (Richard doing his checkride with you),
        > > > and put it in the group files?
        > > > front seat 300
        > > > rear seat ~178
        > > > fuel 30
        > > >
        > > > I've never seen a sample of a WSC weight and balance
        > > > in any text book.
        > > > (showing as you promise "nosewheel height")
        > > >
        > > > Thanks,
        > > > Mike
        > > >
        > > > WSC W&B is like any other W&B, so there doesn't have to be a sample of
        > > > WSC
        > > > specific W&B in the textbook. In almost every textbook I have seen
        > there
        > > > is
        > > > the generic teeter totter examples so that the pilot understands the
        > > > concept
        > > > of weight x arm = moment and that when all the weights are added up
        > and
        > > > all
        > > > the moments are added up, you simply divide the total moments by the
        > > > total
        > > > weight and you have the CG. In trikes, the CG is typically "in the
        > > > vicinity of" the rear seat, and simply has to be behind the hang point
        > > > for
        > > > the rear wheels to hang lower than the nose wheel. Once the CG of the
        > > > trike is determined (this involves weighing the trike with scales at
        > > > each
        > > > wheel) it is simple to measure out the locations of the front seat,
        > rear
        > > > seat, fuel tank, baggage area, etc., and plug in the numbers. I made a
        > > > spreadsheet for my W&B worksheet (or W&L worksheet, I don't care what
        > > > you
        > > > call it. Same math.) for each trike so I could plug in the numbers for
        > > > each
        > > > one with some various loading scenarios. I don't have the DTA one here
        > > > at
        > > > the house, but I do have a copy of my old aerotrike paperwork and for
        > a
        > > > 300#
        > > > guy, which I happened to choose for the worst case scenario, the math
        > > > showed
        > > > that the CG was still aft of the hang point location, meaning the
        > trike
        > > > would hang lower in the rear than the front.
        > > >
        > > > I did look in the SP written test study guide and you are correct, the
        > > > chapter on W & B is really lame. Even for fixed wing people there is
        > > > almost
        > > > nothing on W & B. Probably because at the LS level, our loading
        > options
        > > > are
        > > > so limited that there is more concern with weight than with the
        > balance
        > > > part. However, when we have a triker say he'd had a problem with
        > landing
        > > > on
        > > > the nose wheel a couple of times and it wasn't very pleasant, that
        > > > should
        > > > tell him that he should figure out what's going on. Any textbook at
        > the
        > > > Private Pilot level and above will have some info on how to do basic
        > > > weight
        > > > and balance and certainly an instructor textbook should have it so
        > when
        > > > you
        > > > say you haven't seen WSC specifically addressed, I believe you.
        > However,
        > > > you will be able to figure it out for a trike because the concept is
        > no
        > > > different.
        > > >
        > > > Personally, I didn't use the EAA supplied W&B paperwork. I made my own
        > > > because it was more complete and had examples of a variety of loading
        > > > scenarios to cover about any contingency. A story that was related to
        > me
        > > > once underscored the importance of understanding this and knowing how
        > to
        > > > calculate it. Triker is approached by a cameraman wanting ot attach a
        > > > movie
        > > > camera to nose. Triker says OK. Next day, cameraman shows up with a
        > > > camera
        > > > twice as big and attached to about a 3' boom to attach to the nose.
        > > > Warning
        > > > bells go off in triker's head. He understands W&B and does a
        > calculation
        > > > and determines nose will be hanging low. That's why every triker
        > should
        > > > understand the concept. So when someone comes out with something out
        > of
        > > > the
        > > > ordinary, be it a camera on a boom or a 320# student in front, he
        > knows
        > > > to
        > > > do the WxA=M thing and figure his CG. Only tools needed are a tape
        > > > measure,
        > > > scales, and some sort of plumb bob for extra accuracy.
        > > >
        > > > Jim
        > > >
        > >
        >
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