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Grand/Tactical maps to table top

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  • timurilank
    Query to all, What system do you use for grand tactical maneuver and how do you determine what units are placed on the table? Are these brought on a brigade at
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 1, 2007
      Query to all,

      What system do you use for grand tactical maneuver and how do you
      determine what units are placed on the table? Are these brought on a
      brigade at a time? Or, do you use a template? How many table top turns
      are passed before you determine new map movements?

      Cheers,
      Robert

      system: squares, hexs, nodal
    • Rafael Pardo Almudí
      Robert I use a digital old map or a satellite image. I impor it on Powerpoint. See more details at mi web site http://www.geocities.com/rafa_pardo_almudi and
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 1, 2007
        Robert
        I use a digital old map or a satellite image. I impor it on Powerpoint.
        See more details at mi web site
        http://www.geocities.com/rafa_pardo_almudi
        and follow the links for Terrain > From map to table top
        Cheers
        Rafa
        (from Spain)

        --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "timurilank" <Timurilank@...> wrote:
        >
        > Query to all,
        >
        > What system do you use for grand tactical maneuver and how do you
        > determine what units are placed on the table? Are these brought on a
        > brigade at a time? Or, do you use a template? How many table top
        turns
        > are passed before you determine new map movements?
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Robert
        >
        > system: squares, hexs, nodal
        >
      • Dave Woollcombe-Gosson
        Robert, Kind of depends what scale of action I m playing. For my army level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile hexes with only the
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 1, 2007
          Robert,

          Kind of depends what scale of action I'm playing. For my army level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile hexes with only the broadest outline of terrain - open, hilly, wooded etc. At that scale 2 armies in the same hex merely means they are in close proximity - battle is probable, but not inevitable. The steps I use are:

          1. See if the 2 armies realise their opponents are there at all. This is done by a 2D6 roll against a target number determined by the number of patrols the army has out. This gives a role for light cavalry in the campaign and, as cavalry in the screen may not turn up for battle, a decision for each general.
          2. Determine the apparent size of the non-player army. This will be a percentage (15% - 200%) of the notional size and is probably not entirely accurate.
          3. Determine battlefield terrain randomly. Most tactical rules have a system for generating random terrain. These are generally pretty straightforward to modify for the hex terrain type the battle will occur in. Note, this terrain is notional for the moment.
          4. Based on apparent odds, general's ability and strategic orders, both generals decide from: Attack, manoeuvre, observe, hold or withdraw.
          5. A matrix determines what happens for each pair of orders. If a battle does not occur both sides may gain more reports of the enemy strength - the more reports one has the more accurate the assessment is likely to be. Manoeuvre is abstractly handled by rolls to add/remove/move terrain features on the notional battlefield terrain. If a battle does not result there may still be smaller actions between elements of the 2 armies - raids, scouts clashing, foraging parties meeting etc.
          6. If a battle occurs roll to determine the actual size of the non-player army. If the army is smaller than expected there is a chance that an outflanking force has been despatched. Depending on the circumstances of the battle units may be delayed or not appear at all e.g. armies blunder into each other unexpectedly, force suprised by manoeuvre or itself caught on the march whilst manoeuvring or caught trying to withdraw.

          It's quite a drawn out process, but in my campaigns battles tend to occur once or twice a season and a major battle might determine the outcome of a whole war, so I feel the time and effort is worthwhile.

          Dave


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: timurilank
          To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 8:28 AM
          Subject: [SoloWarGame] Grand/Tactical maps to table top


          Query to all,

          What system do you use for grand tactical maneuver and how do you
          determine what units are placed on the table? Are these brought on a
          brigade at a time? Or, do you use a template? How many table top turns
          are passed before you determine new map movements?

          Cheers,
          Robert

          system: squares, hexs, nodal





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • timurilank
          Rafa, Great site and looking at Map to table top, this is a labour of a Benedictine Monk. :) I liked your other pages showing terrain building, that is quite
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 2, 2007
            Rafa,

            Great site and looking at Map to table top, this is a labour of a
            Benedictine Monk. :) I liked your other pages showing terrain
            building, that is quite useful. Good photos.
            cheers,
            Robert




            --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, Rafael Pardo Almudí <rpardo@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Robert
            > I use a digital old map or a satellite image. I impor it on
            Powerpoint.
            > See more details at mi web site
            > http://www.geocities.com/rafa_pardo_almudi
            > and follow the links for Terrain > From map to table top
            > Cheers
            > Rafa
            > (from Spain)
            >
            > --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "timurilank" <Timurilank@>
            wrote:
            > >
            > > Query to all,
            > >
            > > What system do you use for grand tactical maneuver and how do you
            > > determine what units are placed on the table? Are these brought
            on a
            > > brigade at a time? Or, do you use a template? How many table top
            > turns
            > > are passed before you determine new map movements?
            > >
            > > Cheers,
            > > Robert
            > >
            > > system: squares, hexs, nodal
            > >
            >
          • timurilank
            Dave, It seems we have some similar ideas. I am designing a grand/tactical map for SYW; Rafael, showed what could be done with Powepoint, but my skills with pc
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 2, 2007
              Dave,

              It seems we have some similar ideas. I am designing a grand/tactical
              map for SYW; Rafael, showed what could be done with Powepoint, but my
              skills with pc programs is not at that level yet. I will get there.

              Our SYW armies have quickly outgrown the table, so consequently, I
              thought about devising a map system where all brigade locations are
              known, but not their composition. Secondly, reflecting the period,
              battle was done after some period of maneuvering. At Kolin, Frederich
              tried to turn the Austrian right flank and at Zorndorf, the Prussians
              marched in the earlier morning to place themselves in the Russian
              rear. This period of maneuver is what I am trying to simulate.

              I have done some playtesting and found that one had the idea of a
              large battle taking place despite the focus on the point of contact
              played out on the table top. Secondly, retreating or falling back did
              not necessarily mean the end of the game and this was a gradualy
              process off all options having played themselves out.

              We will have a game this weekend and see what areas need
              modification.

              Cheers,
              Robert

              --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Woollcombe-Gosson" <d.w-
              gosson@...> wrote:
              >
              > Robert,
              >
              > Kind of depends what scale of action I'm playing. For my army
              level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile hexes
              with only the broadest outline of terrain - open, hilly, wooded etc.
              At that scale 2 armies in the same hex merely means they are in close
              proximity - battle is probable, but not inevitable. The steps I use
              are:
              >
              > 1. See if the 2 armies realise their opponents are there at
              all. This is done by a 2D6 roll against a target number determined
              by the number of patrols the army has out. This gives a role for
              light cavalry in the campaign and, as cavalry in the screen may not
              turn up for battle, a decision for each general.
              > 2. Determine the apparent size of the non-player army. This
              will be a percentage (15% - 200%) of the notional size and is
              probably not entirely accurate.
              > 3. Determine battlefield terrain randomly. Most tactical rules
              have a system for generating random terrain. These are generally
              pretty straightforward to modify for the hex terrain type the battle
              will occur in. Note, this terrain is notional for the moment.
              > 4. Based on apparent odds, general's ability and strategic
              orders, both generals decide from: Attack, manoeuvre, observe, hold
              or withdraw.
              > 5. A matrix determines what happens for each pair of orders. If
              a battle does not occur both sides may gain more reports of the enemy
              strength - the more reports one has the more accurate the assessment
              is likely to be. Manoeuvre is abstractly handled by rolls to
              add/remove/move terrain features on the notional battlefield
              terrain. If a battle does not result there may still be smaller
              actions between elements of the 2 armies - raids, scouts clashing,
              foraging parties meeting etc.
              > 6. If a battle occurs roll to determine the actual size of the
              non-player army. If the army is smaller than expected there is a
              chance that an outflanking force has been despatched. Depending on
              the circumstances of the battle units may be delayed or not appear at
              all e.g. armies blunder into each other unexpectedly, force suprised
              by manoeuvre or itself caught on the march whilst manoeuvring or
              caught trying to withdraw.
              >
              > It's quite a drawn out process, but in my campaigns battles tend to
              occur once or twice a season and a major battle might determine the
              outcome of a whole war, so I feel the time and effort is worthwhile.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: timurilank
              > To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 8:28 AM
              > Subject: [SoloWarGame] Grand/Tactical maps to table top
              >
              >
              > Query to all,
              >
              > What system do you use for grand tactical maneuver and how do you
              > determine what units are placed on the table? Are these brought
              on a
              > brigade at a time? Or, do you use a template? How many table top
              turns
              > are passed before you determine new map movements?
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Robert
              >
              > system: squares, hexs, nodal
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Steve Hicks
              Robert - the advice from Rafael is good... no skills needed - it s the computing equivalent of tracing paper .. :o)) All you do is load the map into
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 3, 2007
                Robert - the advice from Rafael is good... no skills needed - it's
                the computing equivalent of "tracing paper".. :o))

                All you do is load the map into Powerpoint and then draw the main
                features on top of it before deleting the map (leaving just
                the "tracing")...

                The alternate is a campign moderating program that I use
                called "Berthier" - this is free, and among (many) other things
                allows you to create campaign maps (gridded to the scale of your
                choice) by doing something similar to the technique Rafael
                describes.. you load the graphic of the map you're interested in and
                then define the Berthier campaign map by drawing your terrian types
                on top of the map.

                Berthier is then quite useful for doing the grand tactical moves you
                mention - it acts like the matchbox chest that Don Featherstone
                described in Solo Wargaming, but on a massive scale... I think it
                might pay you to check it out, there's a link from my web page...

                --------
                Regards,
                Steve

                IBM UK Wargame Club page:
                http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cave/5647/index.html

                My web page: http://steve-the-wargamer.blogspot.com/




                --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "timurilank" <Timurilank@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dave,
                >
                > It seems we have some similar ideas. I am designing a
                grand/tactical
                > map for SYW; Rafael, showed what could be done with Powepoint, but
                my
                > skills with pc programs is not at that level yet. I will get
                there.
                >
                > Our SYW armies have quickly outgrown the table, so consequently, I
                > thought about devising a map system where all brigade locations
                are
                > known, but not their composition. Secondly, reflecting the period,
                > battle was done after some period of maneuvering. At Kolin,
                Frederich
                > tried to turn the Austrian right flank and at Zorndorf, the
                Prussians
                > marched in the earlier morning to place themselves in the Russian
                > rear. This period of maneuver is what I am trying to simulate.
                >
                > I have done some playtesting and found that one had the idea of a
                > large battle taking place despite the focus on the point of
                contact
                > played out on the table top. Secondly, retreating or falling back
                did
                > not necessarily mean the end of the game and this was a gradualy
                > process off all options having played themselves out.
                >
                > We will have a game this weekend and see what areas need
                > modification.
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Robert
                >
                > --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Woollcombe-Gosson" <d.w-
                > gosson@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Robert,
                > >
                > > Kind of depends what scale of action I'm playing. For my army
                > level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile
                hexes
                > with only the broadest outline of terrain - open, hilly, wooded
                etc.
                > At that scale 2 armies in the same hex merely means they are in
                close
                > proximity - battle is probable, but not inevitable. The steps I
                use
                > are:
                > >
                > > 1. See if the 2 armies realise their opponents are there at
                > all. This is done by a 2D6 roll against a target number
                determined
                > by the number of patrols the army has out. This gives a role for
                > light cavalry in the campaign and, as cavalry in the screen may
                not
                > turn up for battle, a decision for each general.
                > > 2. Determine the apparent size of the non-player army. This
                > will be a percentage (15% - 200%) of the notional size and is
                > probably not entirely accurate.
                > > 3. Determine battlefield terrain randomly. Most tactical
                rules
                > have a system for generating random terrain. These are generally
                > pretty straightforward to modify for the hex terrain type the
                battle
                > will occur in. Note, this terrain is notional for the moment.
                > > 4. Based on apparent odds, general's ability and strategic
                > orders, both generals decide from: Attack, manoeuvre, observe,
                hold
                > or withdraw.
                > > 5. A matrix determines what happens for each pair of orders.
                If
                > a battle does not occur both sides may gain more reports of the
                enemy
                > strength - the more reports one has the more accurate the
                assessment
                > is likely to be. Manoeuvre is abstractly handled by rolls to
                > add/remove/move terrain features on the notional battlefield
                > terrain. If a battle does not result there may still be smaller
                > actions between elements of the 2 armies - raids, scouts clashing,
                > foraging parties meeting etc.
                > > 6. If a battle occurs roll to determine the actual size of
                the
                > non-player army. If the army is smaller than expected there is a
                > chance that an outflanking force has been despatched. Depending
                on
                > the circumstances of the battle units may be delayed or not appear
                at
                > all e.g. armies blunder into each other unexpectedly, force
                suprised
                > by manoeuvre or itself caught on the march whilst manoeuvring or
                > caught trying to withdraw.
                > >
                > > It's quite a drawn out process, but in my campaigns battles tend
                to
                > occur once or twice a season and a major battle might determine
                the
                > outcome of a whole war, so I feel the time and effort is
                worthwhile.
                > >
                > > Dave
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: timurilank
                > > To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 8:28 AM
                > > Subject: [SoloWarGame] Grand/Tactical maps to table top
                > >
                > >
                > > Query to all,
                > >
                > > What system do you use for grand tactical maneuver and how do
                you
                > > determine what units are placed on the table? Are these
                brought
                > on a
                > > brigade at a time? Or, do you use a template? How many table
                top
                > turns
                > > are passed before you determine new map movements?
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > > Robert
                > >
                > > system: squares, hexs, nodal
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • raylev3
                An alternative I ve adopted is to use the 120 available maps in the Age of Reason rules book. A year ago when I was running an AoR campaign game at our
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 3, 2007
                  An alternative I've adopted is to use the 120 available "maps" in the
                  Age of Reason rules book. A year ago when I was running an AoR
                  campaign game at our local club I began using the "maps" in the book
                  to set up the battlefields for the players.

                  Basically the rules set comes with a campaign map of Europe, North
                  and South American, and India. Although the movement areas are very
                  large they differenticate between three types of key terrain (normal,
                  mountainous, and forested). When two armies meet in a given zone the
                  players role two 10-sided dice and add a variable (I believe 20) for
                  the terrain -- the terrain maps are set up in such a way that the
                  more mountainous terrain is at the higher end. Therefore you role a
                  75 and cross index that number to the pre-drawn maps -- voila,
                  instand battlefield with towns, woods, rivers, streams, fields, etc.

                  I've taken to using the ruleset's maps when I want to set up a quick
                  solo game or even when a friend comes over. I find it better than
                  tossing bits of terrain on the table when I'm not playing a scenario
                  of some type.

                  Ray

                  --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Woollcombe-Gosson" <d.w-
                  gosson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Robert,
                  >
                  > Kind of depends what scale of action I'm playing. For my army
                  level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile hexes
                  with only the broadest outline of terrain - open, hilly, wooded etc.
                  At that scale 2 armies in the same hex merely means they are in close
                  proximity - battle is probable, but not inevitable. The steps I use
                  are:
                  >
                • timurilank
                  Steve, Thanks for the explanation and I shall look at both options later this week. cheers, Robert ... and ... you ... but ... I ... period, ... orders. ...
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 3, 2007
                    Steve,

                    Thanks for the explanation and I shall look at both options later
                    this week.

                    cheers,
                    Robert


                    --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hicks"
                    <micheleandsteve@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Robert - the advice from Rafael is good... no skills needed - it's
                    > the computing equivalent of "tracing paper".. :o))
                    >
                    > All you do is load the map into Powerpoint and then draw the main
                    > features on top of it before deleting the map (leaving just
                    > the "tracing")...
                    >
                    > The alternate is a campign moderating program that I use
                    > called "Berthier" - this is free, and among (many) other things
                    > allows you to create campaign maps (gridded to the scale of your
                    > choice) by doing something similar to the technique Rafael
                    > describes.. you load the graphic of the map you're interested in
                    and
                    > then define the Berthier campaign map by drawing your terrian types
                    > on top of the map.
                    >
                    > Berthier is then quite useful for doing the grand tactical moves
                    you
                    > mention - it acts like the matchbox chest that Don Featherstone
                    > described in Solo Wargaming, but on a massive scale... I think it
                    > might pay you to check it out, there's a link from my web page...
                    >
                    > --------
                    > Regards,
                    > Steve
                    >
                    > IBM UK Wargame Club page:
                    > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cave/5647/index.html
                    >
                    > My web page: http://steve-the-wargamer.blogspot.com/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "timurilank" <Timurilank@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dave,
                    > >
                    > > It seems we have some similar ideas. I am designing a
                    > grand/tactical
                    > > map for SYW; Rafael, showed what could be done with Powepoint,
                    but
                    > my
                    > > skills with pc programs is not at that level yet. I will get
                    > there.
                    > >
                    > > Our SYW armies have quickly outgrown the table, so consequently,
                    I
                    > > thought about devising a map system where all brigade locations
                    > are
                    > > known, but not their composition. Secondly, reflecting the
                    period,
                    > > battle was done after some period of maneuvering. At Kolin,
                    > Frederich
                    > > tried to turn the Austrian right flank and at Zorndorf, the
                    > Prussians
                    > > marched in the earlier morning to place themselves in the Russian
                    > > rear. This period of maneuver is what I am trying to simulate.
                    > >
                    > > I have done some playtesting and found that one had the idea of a
                    > > large battle taking place despite the focus on the point of
                    > contact
                    > > played out on the table top. Secondly, retreating or falling back
                    > did
                    > > not necessarily mean the end of the game and this was a gradualy
                    > > process off all options having played themselves out.
                    > >
                    > > We will have a game this weekend and see what areas need
                    > > modification.
                    > >
                    > > Cheers,
                    > > Robert
                    > >
                    > > --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Woollcombe-Gosson" <d.w-
                    > > gosson@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Robert,
                    > > >
                    > > > Kind of depends what scale of action I'm playing. For my army
                    > > level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile
                    > hexes
                    > > with only the broadest outline of terrain - open, hilly, wooded
                    > etc.
                    > > At that scale 2 armies in the same hex merely means they are in
                    > close
                    > > proximity - battle is probable, but not inevitable. The steps I
                    > use
                    > > are:
                    > > >
                    > > > 1. See if the 2 armies realise their opponents are there at
                    > > all. This is done by a 2D6 roll against a target number
                    > determined
                    > > by the number of patrols the army has out. This gives a role for
                    > > light cavalry in the campaign and, as cavalry in the screen may
                    > not
                    > > turn up for battle, a decision for each general.
                    > > > 2. Determine the apparent size of the non-player army. This
                    > > will be a percentage (15% - 200%) of the notional size and is
                    > > probably not entirely accurate.
                    > > > 3. Determine battlefield terrain randomly. Most tactical
                    > rules
                    > > have a system for generating random terrain. These are generally
                    > > pretty straightforward to modify for the hex terrain type the
                    > battle
                    > > will occur in. Note, this terrain is notional for the moment.
                    > > > 4. Based on apparent odds, general's ability and strategic
                    > > orders, both generals decide from: Attack, manoeuvre, observe,
                    > hold
                    > > or withdraw.
                    > > > 5. A matrix determines what happens for each pair of
                    orders.
                    > If
                    > > a battle does not occur both sides may gain more reports of the
                    > enemy
                    > > strength - the more reports one has the more accurate the
                    > assessment
                    > > is likely to be. Manoeuvre is abstractly handled by rolls to
                    > > add/remove/move terrain features on the notional battlefield
                    > > terrain. If a battle does not result there may still be smaller
                    > > actions between elements of the 2 armies - raids, scouts
                    clashing,
                    > > foraging parties meeting etc.
                    > > > 6. If a battle occurs roll to determine the actual size of
                    > the
                    > > non-player army. If the army is smaller than expected there is a
                    > > chance that an outflanking force has been despatched. Depending
                    > on
                    > > the circumstances of the battle units may be delayed or not
                    appear
                    > at
                    > > all e.g. armies blunder into each other unexpectedly, force
                    > suprised
                    > > by manoeuvre or itself caught on the march whilst manoeuvring or
                    > > caught trying to withdraw.
                    > > >
                    > > > It's quite a drawn out process, but in my campaigns battles
                    tend
                    > to
                    > > occur once or twice a season and a major battle might determine
                    > the
                    > > outcome of a whole war, so I feel the time and effort is
                    > worthwhile.
                    > > >
                    > > > Dave
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: timurilank
                    > > > To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 8:28 AM
                    > > > Subject: [SoloWarGame] Grand/Tactical maps to table top
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Query to all,
                    > > >
                    > > > What system do you use for grand tactical maneuver and how do
                    > you
                    > > > determine what units are placed on the table? Are these
                    > brought
                    > > on a
                    > > > brigade at a time? Or, do you use a template? How many table
                    > top
                    > > turns
                    > > > are passed before you determine new map movements?
                    > > >
                    > > > Cheers,
                    > > > Robert
                    > > >
                    > > > system: squares, hexs, nodal
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Rick Devonshire
                    Yes Berthier is good. I ve seen it used to track movement in a modern and WWII naval game, as well as land movement in various periods. As soon as two opposing
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 4, 2007
                      Yes Berthier is good. I've seen it used to track movement in a modern and
                      WWII naval game, as well as land movement in various periods. As soon as two
                      opposing forces occupy the same square, its time to put the minis on the
                      table.



                      Rick



                      _____

                      From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of Steve Hicks
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 12:28 AM
                      To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Grand/Tactical maps to table top



                      Robert - the advice from Rafael is good... no skills needed - it's
                      the computing equivalent of "tracing paper".. :o))

                      All you do is load the map into Powerpoint and then draw the main
                      features on top of it before deleting the map (leaving just
                      the "tracing")...

                      The alternate is a campign moderating program that I use
                      called "Berthier" - this is free, and among (many) other things
                      allows you to create campaign maps (gridded to the scale of your
                      choice) by doing something similar to the technique Rafael
                      describes.. you load the graphic of the map you're interested in and
                      then define the Berthier campaign map by drawing your terrian types
                      on top of the map.

                      Berthier is then quite useful for doing the grand tactical moves you
                      mention - it acts like the matchbox chest that Don Featherstone
                      described in Solo Wargaming, but on a massive scale... I think it
                      might pay you to check it out, there's a link from my web page...

                      --------
                      Regards,
                      Steve

                      IBM UK Wargame Club page:
                      http://www.geocitie
                      <http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cave/5647/index.html>
                      s.com/TimesSquare/Cave/5647/index.html

                      My web page: http://steve- <http://steve-the-wargamer.blogspot.com/>
                      the-wargamer.blogspot.com/

                      --- In SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                      "timurilank" <Timurilank@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Dave,
                      >
                      > It seems we have some similar ideas. I am designing a
                      grand/tactical
                      > map for SYW; Rafael, showed what could be done with Powepoint, but
                      my
                      > skills with pc programs is not at that level yet. I will get
                      there.
                      >
                      > Our SYW armies have quickly outgrown the table, so consequently, I
                      > thought about devising a map system where all brigade locations
                      are
                      > known, but not their composition. Secondly, reflecting the period,
                      > battle was done after some period of maneuvering. At Kolin,
                      Frederich
                      > tried to turn the Austrian right flank and at Zorndorf, the
                      Prussians
                      > marched in the earlier morning to place themselves in the Russian
                      > rear. This period of maneuver is what I am trying to simulate.
                      >
                      > I have done some playtesting and found that one had the idea of a
                      > large battle taking place despite the focus on the point of
                      contact
                      > played out on the table top. Secondly, retreating or falling back
                      did
                      > not necessarily mean the end of the game and this was a gradualy
                      > process off all options having played themselves out.
                      >
                      > We will have a game this weekend and see what areas need
                      > modification.
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Robert
                      >
                      > --- In SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com>
                      yahoogroups.com, "Dave Woollcombe-Gosson" <d.w-
                      > gosson@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Robert,
                      > >
                      > > Kind of depends what scale of action I'm playing. For my army
                      > level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile
                      hexes
                      > with only the broadest outline of terrain - open, hilly, wooded
                      etc.
                      > At that scale 2 armies in the same hex merely means they are in
                      close
                      > proximity - battle is probable, but not inevitable. The steps I
                      use
                      > are:
                      > >
                      > > 1. See if the 2 armies realise their opponents are there at
                      > all. This is done by a 2D6 roll against a target number
                      determined
                      > by the number of patrols the army has out. This gives a role for
                      > light cavalry in the campaign and, as cavalry in the screen may
                      not
                      > turn up for battle, a decision for each general.
                      > > 2. Determine the apparent size of the non-player army. This
                      > will be a percentage (15% - 200%) of the notional size and is
                      > probably not entirely accurate.
                      > > 3. Determine battlefield terrain randomly. Most tactical
                      rules
                      > have a system for generating random terrain. These are generally
                      > pretty straightforward to modify for the hex terrain type the
                      battle
                      > will occur in. Note, this terrain is notional for the moment.
                      > > 4. Based on apparent odds, general's ability and strategic
                      > orders, both generals decide from: Attack, manoeuvre, observe,
                      hold
                      > or withdraw.
                      > > 5. A matrix determines what happens for each pair of orders.
                      If
                      > a battle does not occur both sides may gain more reports of the
                      enemy
                      > strength - the more reports one has the more accurate the
                      assessment
                      > is likely to be. Manoeuvre is abstractly handled by rolls to
                      > add/remove/move terrain features on the notional battlefield
                      > terrain. If a battle does not result there may still be smaller
                      > actions between elements of the 2 armies - raids, scouts clashing,
                      > foraging parties meeting etc.
                      > > 6. If a battle occurs roll to determine the actual size of
                      the
                      > non-player army. If the army is smaller than expected there is a
                      > chance that an outflanking force has been despatched. Depending
                      on
                      > the circumstances of the battle units may be delayed or not appear
                      at
                      > all e.g. armies blunder into each other unexpectedly, force
                      suprised
                      > by manoeuvre or itself caught on the march whilst manoeuvring or
                      > caught trying to withdraw.
                      > >
                      > > It's quite a drawn out process, but in my campaigns battles tend
                      to
                      > occur once or twice a season and a major battle might determine
                      the
                      > outcome of a whole war, so I feel the time and effort is
                      worthwhile.
                      > >
                      > > Dave
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: timurilank
                      > > To: SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 8:28 AM
                      > > Subject: [SoloWarGame] Grand/Tactical maps to table top
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Query to all,
                      > >
                      > > What system do you use for grand tactical maneuver and how do
                      you
                      > > determine what units are placed on the table? Are these
                      brought
                      > on a
                      > > brigade at a time? Or, do you use a template? How many table
                      top
                      > turns
                      > > are passed before you determine new map movements?
                      > >
                      > > Cheers,
                      > > Robert
                      > >
                      > > system: squares, hexs, nodal
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Rick Devonshire
                      That sounds interesting. Do you have a site where you can get this from? Rick _____ From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 4, 2007
                        That sounds interesting. Do you have a site where you can get this from?



                        Rick



                        _____

                        From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of raylev3
                        Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:26 AM
                        To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Grand/Tactical maps to table top



                        An alternative I've adopted is to use the 120 available "maps" in the
                        Age of Reason rules book. A year ago when I was running an AoR
                        campaign game at our local club I began using the "maps" in the book
                        to set up the battlefields for the players.

                        Basically the rules set comes with a campaign map of Europe, North
                        and South American, and India. Although the movement areas are very
                        large they differenticate between three types of key terrain (normal,
                        mountainous, and forested). When two armies meet in a given zone the
                        players role two 10-sided dice and add a variable (I believe 20) for
                        the terrain -- the terrain maps are set up in such a way that the
                        more mountainous terrain is at the higher end. Therefore you role a
                        75 and cross index that number to the pre-drawn maps -- voila,
                        instand battlefield with towns, woods, rivers, streams, fields, etc.

                        I've taken to using the ruleset's maps when I want to set up a quick
                        solo game or even when a friend comes over. I find it better than
                        tossing bits of terrain on the table when I'm not playing a scenario
                        of some type.

                        Ray

                        --- In SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                        "Dave Woollcombe-Gosson" <d.w-
                        gosson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Robert,
                        >
                        > Kind of depends what scale of action I'm playing. For my army
                        level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile hexes
                        with only the broadest outline of terrain - open, hilly, wooded etc.
                        At that scale 2 armies in the same hex merely means they are in close
                        proximity - battle is probable, but not inevitable. The steps I use
                        are:
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Rafael Pardo Almudí
                        This is THE web site for Berthier software http://delyall.tripod.com/berthier/berthier.html It is free and the author is continuosly upgradding it. Best
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 5, 2007
                          This is THE web site for Berthier software

                          http://delyall.tripod.com/berthier/berthier.html

                          It is free and the author is continuosly upgradding it.


                          Best regards

                          Rafa
                          http://www.geocities.com/rafa_pardo_almudi
                        • thedrake70458
                          I have downloaded it and it looks good for a land campaign;just need to figure out how to do it for a naaval campaign and to use it for hidden movement in a
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 5, 2007
                            I have downloaded it and it looks good for a land campaign;just need
                            to figure out how to do it for a naaval campaign and to use it for
                            hidden movement in a solo campaign/game.Any ideas on that would be
                            great!

                            Thanks,
                            MD

                            > Yes Berthier is good. I've seen it used to track movement in a
                            modern and
                            > WWII naval game, as well as land movement in various periods. As
                            soon as two
                            > opposing forces occupy the same square, its time to put the minis on
                            the
                            > table.
                          • raylev3
                            In the US you can get it from warweb.com...the name of the game is: Warfare in the Age of Reason:Second Edition by Tod Kershner and Dale Wood. In the UK you
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 5, 2007
                              In the US you can get it from warweb.com...the name of the game is:

                              Warfare in the Age of Reason:Second Edition by Tod Kershner and Dale
                              Wood.

                              In the UK you can get it from Caliverbooks.com; just type in "Warfare
                              in the Age of Reason for your search.

                              Ray

                              --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Devonshire" <RickDev57@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > That sounds interesting. Do you have a site where you can get this
                              from?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Rick
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of raylev3
                              > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:26 AM
                              > To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Grand/Tactical maps to table top
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > An alternative I've adopted is to use the 120 available "maps" in
                              the
                              > Age of Reason rules book. A year ago when I was running an AoR
                              > campaign game at our local club I began using the "maps" in the
                              book
                              > to set up the battlefields for the players.
                              >
                              > Basically the rules set comes with a campaign map of Europe, North
                              > and South American, and India. Although the movement areas are very
                              > large they differenticate between three types of key terrain
                              (normal,
                              > mountainous, and forested). When two armies meet in a given zone
                              the
                              > players role two 10-sided dice and add a variable (I believe 20)
                              for
                              > the terrain -- the terrain maps are set up in such a way that the
                              > more mountainous terrain is at the higher end. Therefore you role a
                              > 75 and cross index that number to the pre-drawn maps -- voila,
                              > instand battlefield with towns, woods, rivers, streams, fields, etc.
                              >
                              > I've taken to using the ruleset's maps when I want to set up a
                              quick
                              > solo game or even when a friend comes over. I find it better than
                              > tossing bits of terrain on the table when I'm not playing a
                              scenario
                              > of some type.
                              >
                              > Ray
                              >
                              > --- In SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com,
                              > "Dave Woollcombe-Gosson" <d.w-
                              > gosson@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Robert,
                              > >
                              > > Kind of depends what scale of action I'm playing. For my army
                              > level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile
                              hexes
                              > with only the broadest outline of terrain - open, hilly, wooded
                              etc.
                              > At that scale 2 armies in the same hex merely means they are in
                              close
                              > proximity - battle is probable, but not inevitable. The steps I use
                              > are:
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Steve Hicks
                              Hi MD - check out the link from the Berthier page to how people use it in their games as there are a lot of idea s there..
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 6, 2007
                                Hi MD - check out the link from the Berthier page to how people use
                                it in their games as there are a lot of idea's there..

                                http://members.tripod.com/delyall/berthier/use.html

                                I use it for AWI campaigns (and I feature a couple of times on the
                                page) but in many ways I would have thought air and naval are the
                                easiest with Berthier as you don't have to worry about multiple
                                terrain types etc. You can also make the best use of the Berthier
                                feature to set the end point for the move, and allow Berthier to
                                decide how it gets there while you as the solo player hunt them
                                down...

                                Regards,
                                Steve

                                My page: http://steve-the-wargamer.blogspot.com/
                                IBM Wargame Club page:
                                http://www.geocities.com/stevej_hicks/index.html




                                --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "thedrake70458"
                                <thedrake70458@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I have downloaded it and it looks good for a land campaign;just
                                need
                                > to figure out how to do it for a naaval campaign and to use it for
                                > hidden movement in a solo campaign/game.Any ideas on that would be
                                > great!
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                > MD
                                >
                                > > Yes Berthier is good. I've seen it used to track movement in a
                                > modern and
                                > > WWII naval game, as well as land movement in various periods. As
                                > soon as two
                                > > opposing forces occupy the same square, its time to put the
                                minis on
                                > the
                                > > table.
                                >
                              • Rick Devonshire
                                Oh Gawd! I haven t really used it for a couple of years. From memory (scratches head) it s easier to set up for naval games as you don t need to fill in the
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 9, 2007
                                  Oh Gawd! I haven't really used it for a couple of years. From memory
                                  (scratches head) it's easier to set up for naval games as you don't need to
                                  fill in the ocean areas with any detail. I know that there's hidden movement
                                  options for submarines, so you could possibly use this for hidden movement
                                  for land games. However, when you set the two sides up they are shown
                                  separately and I find, I could never remember completely all the movements I
                                  made for one side, when moving the other side.(old fart me.) I'd have to
                                  start from scratch to remember all the tricks of using Berthier again. ;-)
                                  The irony is, I had three or four maps already drawn up in berthier, with
                                  the forces and lost the lot when my old computer died. GRRRRRR!



                                  Rick



                                  _____

                                  From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of thedrake70458
                                  Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 2:29 AM
                                  To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Grand/Tactical maps to table top



                                  I have downloaded it and it looks good for a land campaign;just need
                                  to figure out how to do it for a naaval campaign and to use it for
                                  hidden movement in a solo campaign/game.Any ideas on that would be
                                  great!

                                  Thanks,
                                  MD

                                  > Yes Berthier is good. I've seen it used to track movement in a
                                  modern and
                                  > WWII naval game, as well as land movement in various periods. As
                                  soon as two
                                  > opposing forces occupy the same square, its time to put the minis on
                                  the
                                  > table.





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Rick Devonshire
                                  Thanks, I ll check it out. Rick _____ From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of raylev3 Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 9, 2007
                                    Thanks, I'll check it out.



                                    Rick



                                    _____

                                    From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of raylev3
                                    Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 5:38 AM
                                    To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Grand/Tactical maps to table top




                                    In the US you can get it from warweb.com...the name of the game is:

                                    Warfare in the Age of Reason:Second Edition by Tod Kershner and Dale
                                    Wood.

                                    In the UK you can get it from Caliverbooks.com; just type in "Warfare
                                    in the Age of Reason for your search.

                                    Ray

                                    --- In SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                                    "Rick Devonshire" <RickDev57@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > That sounds interesting. Do you have a site where you can get this
                                    from?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Rick
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > From: SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                                    On
                                    > Behalf Of raylev3
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 5:26 AM
                                    > To: SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Grand/Tactical maps to table top
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > An alternative I've adopted is to use the 120 available "maps" in
                                    the
                                    > Age of Reason rules book. A year ago when I was running an AoR
                                    > campaign game at our local club I began using the "maps" in the
                                    book
                                    > to set up the battlefields for the players.
                                    >
                                    > Basically the rules set comes with a campaign map of Europe, North
                                    > and South American, and India. Although the movement areas are very
                                    > large they differenticate between three types of key terrain
                                    (normal,
                                    > mountainous, and forested). When two armies meet in a given zone
                                    the
                                    > players role two 10-sided dice and add a variable (I believe 20)
                                    for
                                    > the terrain -- the terrain maps are set up in such a way that the
                                    > more mountainous terrain is at the higher end. Therefore you role a
                                    > 75 and cross index that number to the pre-drawn maps -- voila,
                                    > instand battlefield with towns, woods, rivers, streams, fields, etc.
                                    >
                                    > I've taken to using the ruleset's maps when I want to set up a
                                    quick
                                    > solo game or even when a friend comes over. I find it better than
                                    > tossing bits of terrain on the table when I'm not playing a
                                    scenario
                                    > of some type.
                                    >
                                    > Ray
                                    >
                                    > --- In SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    yahoogroups.com,
                                    > "Dave Woollcombe-Gosson" <d.w-
                                    > gosson@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Robert,
                                    > >
                                    > > Kind of depends what scale of action I'm playing. For my army
                                    > level games I tend to use a fairly abstract map of 20(ish) mile
                                    hexes
                                    > with only the broadest outline of terrain - open, hilly, wooded
                                    etc.
                                    > At that scale 2 armies in the same hex merely means they are in
                                    close
                                    > proximity - battle is probable, but not inevitable. The steps I use
                                    > are:
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • jim davis
                                    Well to late to rescue the old maps, but for future ones , and other things you want to save, get an external harddrive. they run about $80 for 80 gigs of
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Apr 9, 2007
                                      Well to late to rescue the old maps, but for future
                                      ones , and other things you want to save, get an
                                      external harddrive. they run about $80 for 80 gigs of
                                      memory. takes a few seconds to install--the one i
                                      have simply plugs in and sets itself up.
                                      then you drag and drop whatever you want in it.
                                      Jim D
                                      --- Rick Devonshire <RickDev57@...> wrote:

                                      > Oh Gawd! I haven't really used it for a couple of
                                      > years. From memory
                                      > (scratches head) it's easier to set up for naval
                                      > games as you don't need to
                                      > fill in the ocean areas with any detail. I know that
                                      > there's hidden movement
                                      > options for submarines, so you could possibly use
                                      > this for hidden movement
                                      > for land games. However, when you set the two sides
                                      > up they are shown
                                      > separately and I find, I could never remember
                                      > completely all the movements I
                                      > made for one side, when moving the other side.(old
                                      > fart me.) I'd have to
                                      > start from scratch to remember all the tricks of
                                      > using Berthier again. ;-)
                                      > The irony is, I had three or four maps already drawn
                                      > up in berthier, with
                                      > the forces and lost the lot when my old computer
                                      > died. GRRRRRR!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Rick
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > Behalf Of thedrake70458
                                      > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 2:29 AM
                                      > To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Grand/Tactical maps to
                                      > table top
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I have downloaded it and it looks good for a land
                                      > campaign;just need
                                      > to figure out how to do it for a naaval campaign and
                                      > to use it for
                                      > hidden movement in a solo campaign/game.Any ideas on
                                      > that would be
                                      > great!
                                      >
                                      > Thanks,
                                      > MD
                                      >
                                      > > Yes Berthier is good. I've seen it used to track
                                      > movement in a
                                      > modern and
                                      > > WWII naval game, as well as land movement in
                                      > various periods. As
                                      > soon as two
                                      > > opposing forces occupy the same square, its time
                                      > to put the minis on
                                      > the
                                      > > table.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                      > removed]
                                      >
                                      >




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                                    • Rick Devonshire
                                      Hey now, that s a thought. I ll have to check this out. Rick _____ From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Apr 10, 2007
                                        Hey now, that's a thought. I'll have to check this out.



                                        Rick



                                        _____

                                        From: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf Of jim davis
                                        Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 11:45 PM
                                        To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [SoloWarGame] Re: Grand/Tactical maps to table top



                                        Well to late to rescue the old maps, but for future
                                        ones , and other things you want to save, get an
                                        external harddrive. they run about $80 for 80 gigs of
                                        memory. takes a few seconds to install--the one i
                                        have simply plugs in and sets itself up.
                                        then you drag and drop whatever you want in it.
                                        Jim D
                                        --- Rick Devonshire <RickDev57@bigpond. <mailto:RickDev57%40bigpond.com>
                                        com> wrote:

                                        > Oh Gawd! I haven't really used it for a couple of
                                        > years. From memory
                                        > (scratches head) it's easier to set up for naval
                                        > games as you don't need to
                                        > fill in the ocean areas with any detail. I know that
                                        > there's hidden movement
                                        > options for submarines, so you could possibly use
                                        > this for hidden movement
                                        > for land games. However, when you set the two sides
                                        > up they are shown
                                        > separately and I find, I could never remember
                                        > completely all the movements I
                                        > made for one side, when moving the other side.(old
                                        > fart me.) I'd have to
                                        > start from scratch to remember all the tricks of
                                        > using Berthier again. ;-)
                                        > The irony is, I had three or four maps already drawn
                                        > up in berthier, with
                                        > the forces and lost the lot when my old computer
                                        > died. GRRRRRR!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Rick
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > From: SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                        > [mailto:SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > Behalf Of thedrake70458
                                        > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 2:29 AM
                                        > To: SoloWarGame@ <mailto:SoloWarGame%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Grand/Tactical maps to
                                        > table top
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I have downloaded it and it looks good for a land
                                        > campaign;just need
                                        > to figure out how to do it for a naaval campaign and
                                        > to use it for
                                        > hidden movement in a solo campaign/game.Any ideas on
                                        > that would be
                                        > great!
                                        >
                                        > Thanks,
                                        > MD
                                        >
                                        > > Yes Berthier is good. I've seen it used to track
                                        > movement in a
                                        > modern and
                                        > > WWII naval game, as well as land movement in
                                        > various periods. As
                                        > soon as two
                                        > > opposing forces occupy the same square, its time
                                        > to put the minis on
                                        > the
                                        > > table.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        > removed]
                                        >
                                        >

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