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Re: Berthier solo (was introduction)

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  • Tony
    G day Andrew How s it going these days. ... wrote: [SNIP] ... ended ... I think the movement algorithm in the early versions of Berthier wasn t perfect. I
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 1 2:26 AM
      G'day Andrew

      How's it going these days.

      --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Godden" <andrew_g@b...>
      wrote:
      [SNIP]

      > There were a couple of things to watch for. Even if a character
      ended
      > up on the wrong side of the grass in an early encounter Berthier
      > would still plot movement unless you edited that character.
      >

      I think the movement algorithm in the early versions of Berthier
      wasn't perfect. I haven't used Berthier for Skirmish myself but I
      think characters should move around a town now without any problems.

      > Impassable terrain would affect movement but not always line of
      sight
      > and this occasionally created some weird situations but nothing
      that
      > could'nt be resolved.

      Still a limitation of Berthier. I can't think of an easy way of doing
      LOS that isn't computationally too heavy.

      > I'm not using Berthier at the moment but only because It won't run
      on
      > a Mac. Berthier takes a while to get used to but if you persevere
      the
      > results are worth it.
      >

      Pity :-)


      For those of you interested in using Berthier I'm happy to field
      questions either on this group or off-line by email if it is more
      appropriate.

      Stewart in another post wrote "That Beretier system,how does it work?
      It totally confused me". May I suggest you run Berthier, load one of
      the examples and just play around. There is also a good web article
      showing how an earlier version of Berthier was set up to run a
      fantasy campaign.

      http://www.frothersunite.com/files/gothbunny/berthier/berthiertv1.html

      Cheers

      Tony De Lyall
      Author of Berthier.
    • Rick Devonshire
      There you go Stewart. You ve got the author himself. Should be able to sort your problems out no worries now. Hi Tony Rick Devonshire ... From: Tony To:
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 1 4:01 AM
        There you go Stewart. You've got the author himself. Should be able to sort your problems out no worries now.

        Hi Tony

        Rick Devonshire
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Tony
        To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 7:56 PM
        Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Berthier solo (was introduction)


        G'day Andrew

        How's it going these days.

        --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Godden" <andrew_g@b...>
        wrote:
        [SNIP]

        > There were a couple of things to watch for. Even if a character
        ended
        > up on the wrong side of the grass in an early encounter Berthier
        > would still plot movement unless you edited that character.
        >

        I think the movement algorithm in the early versions of Berthier
        wasn't perfect. I haven't used Berthier for Skirmish myself but I
        think characters should move around a town now without any problems.

        > Impassable terrain would affect movement but not always line of
        sight
        > and this occasionally created some weird situations but nothing
        that
        > could'nt be resolved.

        Still a limitation of Berthier. I can't think of an easy way of doing
        LOS that isn't computationally too heavy.

        > I'm not using Berthier at the moment but only because It won't run
        on
        > a Mac. Berthier takes a while to get used to but if you persevere
        the
        > results are worth it.
        >

        Pity :-)


        For those of you interested in using Berthier I'm happy to field
        questions either on this group or off-line by email if it is more
        appropriate.

        Stewart in another post wrote "That Beretier system,how does it work?
        It totally confused me". May I suggest you run Berthier, load one of
        the examples and just play around. There is also a good web article
        showing how an earlier version of Berthier was set up to run a
        fantasy campaign.

        http://www.frothersunite.com/files/gothbunny/berthier/berthiertv1.html

        Cheers

        Tony De Lyall
        Author of Berthier.






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      • Andrew Godden
        G day Tony! Well, a bike accident nearly wrote me off back in August. I had 4 months of sitting around to catch up with the unpainted masses(one handed)and
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 2 7:00 AM
          G'day Tony!

          Well, a bike accident nearly wrote me off back in August. I had 4
          months of sitting around to catch up with the unpainted masses(one
          handed)and reading the lists to keep sane. I also got better at
          applying movement and other penalties to units that are hit based on
          personal experience!

          Needless to say I did not get out to play a lot of games so there was
          a few solo games (once I got the hang of standing up again).

          For those guys who have'nt had a go with Berthier, just fire it up
          and muck around with it. I used it for something that Tony never
          designed it to do and I have'nt come across another way to do hidden
          movement that works as well.

          Have you ever considered porting Berthier to Java Tony?

          I could even run it in a shell or terminal in OS X on the Mac

          Go on..... You know you want to!

          Andrew

          --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <delyall@y...> wrote:
          > G'day Andrew
          >
          > How's it going these days.
          >
          > --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Godden" <andrew_g@b...>
          > wrote:
          > [SNIP]
          >
          > > There were a couple of things to watch for. Even if a character
          > ended
          > > up on the wrong side of the grass in an early encounter Berthier
          > > would still plot movement unless you edited that character.
          > >
          >
          > I think the movement algorithm in the early versions of Berthier
          > wasn't perfect. I haven't used Berthier for Skirmish myself but I
          > think characters should move around a town now without any problems.
          >
          > > Impassable terrain would affect movement but not always line of
          > sight
          > > and this occasionally created some weird situations but nothing
          > that
          > > could'nt be resolved.
          >
          > Still a limitation of Berthier. I can't think of an easy way of
          doing
          > LOS that isn't computationally too heavy.
          >
          > > I'm not using Berthier at the moment but only because It won't
          run
          > on
          > > a Mac. Berthier takes a while to get used to but if you persevere
          > the
          > > results are worth it.
          > >
          >
          > Pity :-)
          >
          >
          > For those of you interested in using Berthier I'm happy to field
          > questions either on this group or off-line by email if it is more
          > appropriate.
          >
          > Stewart in another post wrote "That Beretier system,how does it
          work?
          > It totally confused me". May I suggest you run Berthier, load one
          of
          > the examples and just play around. There is also a good web article
          > showing how an earlier version of Berthier was set up to run a
          > fantasy campaign.
          >
          >
          http://www.frothersunite.com/files/gothbunny/berthier/berthiertv1.html
          >
          > Cheers
          >
          > Tony De Lyall
          > Author of Berthier.
        • Tony
          G day Andrew, ... Was that motor or pushie? ... hidden ... I m always interested in hearing how people have used and adapted Berthier. I ve never done skirmish
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 3 4:24 PM
            G'day Andrew,

            --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Godden" <andrew_g@b...>
            wrote:
            > G'day Tony!
            >
            > Well, a bike accident nearly wrote me off back in August.

            Was that motor or pushie?

            > For those guys who have'nt had a go with Berthier, just fire it up
            > and muck around with it. I used it for something that Tony never
            > designed it to do and I have'nt come across another way to do
            hidden
            > movement that works as well.


            I'm always interested in hearing how people have used and adapted
            Berthier. I've never done skirmish but several people seem to have
            used Berthier in that role sucessfully which is great.

            >
            > Have you ever considered porting Berthier to Java Tony?

            Any "port" of Berthier would in fact be a re-write. Unfortunately I
            don't have the time to do that :-).

            All I can manage is the little tweaks I put out every couple of
            months.


            >
            > I could even run it in a shell or terminal in OS X on the Mac

            I believe there are DOS emulators for the Mac (Google got a few
            hits). I understand there is at least one free one called DOSBOX.
            http://dosbox.sourceforge.net
            If you were keen to try to get Berthier to run on a Mac under one I'd
            be happy to help however I could.

            Cheers

            Tony
          • Andrew Godden
            G day Tony! Naturally, a motorcycle was involved. They often tend to land on you and break your bones when you part company at high speed! ... I had a go at
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 5 4:37 AM
              G'day Tony!

              Naturally, a motorcycle was involved. They often tend to land on you
              and break your bones when you part company at high speed!


              > I believe there are DOS emulators for the Mac (Google got a few
              > hits). I understand there is at least one free one called DOSBOX.
              > http://dosbox.sourceforge.net
              > If you were keen to try to get Berthier to run on a Mac under one
              >I'd be happy to help however I could.

              I had a go at running it on virtual PC without success. I will have a
              look at DOSBOX though... Eventually I would like to put together a
              hidden movement application written in Javascript. I have some vague
              ideas that will need a lot of work but you never know....

              Andrew
            • Stewart Clements
              Thanks for the info everybody.I ll give it a try Stewart ... From: Rick Devonshire To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 1:01 PM
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 5 5:26 PM
                Thanks for the info everybody.I'll give it a try
                Stewart
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Rick Devonshire
                To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 1:01 PM
                Subject: Re: [SoloWarGame] Re: Berthier solo (was introduction)


                There you go Stewart. You've got the author himself. Should be able to sort your problems out no worries now.

                Hi Tony

                Rick Devonshire
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Tony
                To: SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 7:56 PM
                Subject: [SoloWarGame] Re: Berthier solo (was introduction)


                G'day Andrew

                How's it going these days.

                --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Godden" <andrew_g@b...>
                wrote:
                [SNIP]

                > There were a couple of things to watch for. Even if a character
                ended
                > up on the wrong side of the grass in an early encounter Berthier
                > would still plot movement unless you edited that character.
                >

                I think the movement algorithm in the early versions of Berthier
                wasn't perfect. I haven't used Berthier for Skirmish myself but I
                think characters should move around a town now without any problems.

                > Impassable terrain would affect movement but not always line of
                sight
                > and this occasionally created some weird situations but nothing
                that
                > could'nt be resolved.

                Still a limitation of Berthier. I can't think of an easy way of doing
                LOS that isn't computationally too heavy.

                > I'm not using Berthier at the moment but only because It won't run
                on
                > a Mac. Berthier takes a while to get used to but if you persevere
                the
                > results are worth it.
                >

                Pity :-)


                For those of you interested in using Berthier I'm happy to field
                questions either on this group or off-line by email if it is more
                appropriate.

                Stewart in another post wrote "That Beretier system,how does it work?
                It totally confused me". May I suggest you run Berthier, load one of
                the examples and just play around. There is also a good web article
                showing how an earlier version of Berthier was set up to run a
                fantasy campaign.

                http://www.frothersunite.com/files/gothbunny/berthier/berthiertv1.html

                Cheers

                Tony De Lyall
                Author of Berthier.






                Community email addresses:
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                Subscribe: SoloWarGame-subscribe@onelist.com
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                Community email addresses:
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                Subscribe: SoloWarGame-subscribe@onelist.com
                Unsubscribe: SoloWarGame-unsubscribe@onelist.com
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                ADVERTISEMENT





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                a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tony
                G day Andrew ... you ... Ouch! I ve managed to damage myself on a pushie which is why I asked. ... vague ... If you d like to bounce ideas off me I d be happy
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 6 4:00 AM
                  G'day Andrew

                  --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Godden" <andrew_g@b...>
                  wrote:

                  > Naturally, a motorcycle was involved. They often tend to land on
                  you
                  > and break your bones when you part company at high speed!

                  Ouch! I've managed to damage myself on a pushie which is why I asked.

                  > Eventually I would like to put together a
                  > hidden movement application written in Javascript. I have some
                  vague
                  > ideas that will need a lot of work but you never know....


                  If you'd like to bounce ideas off me I'd be happy to help.

                  Cheers

                  Tony
                • Andrew Godden
                  ... Thanks for the offer! Here goes... The most obvious idea was to break the table into a grid and adapt Battleship as the basic mechanism with a javascript
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 7 6:15 PM
                    --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <delyall@y...> wrote:

                    > > Eventually I would like to put together a
                    > > hidden movement application written in Javascript. I have some
                    > vague
                    > > ideas that will need a lot of work but you never know....
                    >
                    >
                    > If you'd like to bounce ideas off me I'd be happy to help.
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    >
                    > Tony

                    Thanks for the offer! Here goes...

                    The most obvious idea was to break the table into a grid and
                    adapt "Battleship" as the basic mechanism with a javascript case
                    statement to calculate wether or not a contact has occured.
                    That does not take line of sight into account though, so there would
                    have to be provision made for "looking" into adjacent areas. Varying
                    the size of the grid to represent visual or audio range would be
                    another (much easier)approach.

                    The layout for such a file would consist of at least 2 drop down lists
                    (one for each player), with each list containing all the xy
                    coordinates for the table. Each turn, the players select their
                    location until a match occurs, at which time an alert box would come
                    up with the positions at the time of contact. The players can then
                    place units on the table and conduct the combat.

                    My other idea was to take a map of the table and create a client side
                    image map with an alert box coming up if both players selected the
                    same map section. The trouble is I can't find a way to allow the
                    script to activate after 2 clicks instead of one. I will have a look
                    around at some javascript guessing games and see if I can get some
                    ideas....

                    There are limitations for solo play beacause unlike Berthier you
                    cannot set a start and finish point and have the unit move
                    automatically each turn. I doubt that Javascript could handle that
                    sort of programming and even if it could it is well beyond my present
                    skills!

                    So, what do you think?

                    Andrew
                  • Tony
                    G day Andrew ... I know some people like hexes rather than squares. Hexes were introduced to get around the trouble people had with Pythagorean distances when
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 8 11:34 PM
                      G'day Andrew

                      --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Godden" <andrew_g@b...> >
                      > The most obvious idea was to break the table into a grid and
                      > adapt "Battleship" as the basic mechanism with a javascript case
                      > statement to calculate wether or not a contact has occurred.

                      I know some people like hexes rather than squares. Hexes were
                      introduced to get around the trouble people had with Pythagorean
                      distances when using a square grid. Software is not so limited. Seems
                      strange to request it conform to a retrograde step. I suggest you use
                      a grid.

                      > That does not take line of sight into account though, so there
                      would
                      > have to be provision made for "looking" into adjacent areas.

                      LOS should be relatively easy.

                      (a) If all you are doing is a grid without underlying terrain then
                      you could base LOS on some function of distance from the observer eg.

                      LOS = Distance to target - 50
                      If LOS > 0 then Sighted else Not Sighted.

                      (b) If you have underlying terrain to take into account then things
                      get more difficult. I think you end up having to have a look-up table
                      for the LOS effect of each type of terrain and then do a more complex
                      calculation.

                      Varying
                      > the size of the grid to represent visual or audio range would be
                      > another (much easier)approach.
                      >
                      > The layout for such a file would consist of at least 2 drop down
                      lists
                      > (one for each player), with each list containing all the xy
                      > coordinates for the table. Each turn, the players select their
                      > location until a match occurs, at which time an alert box would
                      come
                      > up with the positions at the time of contact. The players can then
                      > place units on the table and conduct the combat.

                      Which probably means the players have to track their position by some
                      means eg. on paper, then select the XY values representing their
                      position. Adds a degree of complexity.
                      >
                      > My other idea was to take a map of the table and create a client
                      side
                      > image map with an alert box coming up if both players selected the
                      > same map section. The trouble is I can't find a way to allow the
                      > script to activate after 2 clicks instead of one. I will have a
                      look
                      > around at some javascript guessing games and see if I can get some
                      > ideas....
                      >
                      > There are limitations for solo play because unlike Berthier you
                      > cannot set a start and finish point and have the unit move
                      > automatically each turn. I doubt that Javascript could handle that
                      > sort of programming and even if it could it is well beyond my
                      present
                      > skills!

                      Smart move algorithms need a bit of processing grunt. I doubt if a
                      script could do it in a reasonable time frame. I can email you the
                      Berthier algorithm if you'd like to look at it - its not very long.
                      It is basically Dijkstra's shortest path algorithm adjusted with a
                      heuristic to pull the search to the desired direction.

                      Instead of this approach you will probably have to get the players to
                      plot their move. May I suggest that they don't do this every move -
                      it gets very tedious making the incremental moves. Instead let the
                      players plot a complete movement path (that will take many moves to
                      complete). Then each computer move just track further along the
                      movement path. This could be automatic unless a player deliberately
                      intervenes to create a new movement path.

                      Cheers

                      Tony
                    • Andrew Godden
                      Hi Tony, WOW! That s a lot of feedback... I m still digesting it all. Your Code-Fu is better than my Code-Fu without doubt. Hueristics? Algorithms? These are
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 9 10:26 PM
                        Hi Tony,

                        WOW! That's a lot of feedback... I'm still digesting it all.

                        Your Code-Fu is better than my Code-Fu without doubt. Hueristics?
                        Algorithms? These are way beyond my abilities! I struggle with
                        writing shellscripts!!

                        Totally agree about the hex vs square issue. I use xy co-ordinates
                        myself. It is a little more time consuming plotting movement each
                        game turn but not enough to bother me (yet). Besides, with skirmish
                        gaming you tend to be plotting a whole lot of things each turn
                        anyway, so what's one more? ;-)

                        As for the line of sight, I may try to resolve that seperately using
                        a "sighting check" That should work fo me because I use a table
                        layout based on Crossfire, Lots of terrain to limit line of sight and
                        reduce potential killing fields.

                        I spent Friday morning trawling through Java source code and found a
                        password script that, when modified, does a basic job of allowing 2
                        players to enter their locations seperately and announcing a contact
                        when the locations match. The same script could be used for solo play
                        ambushes. Just get somebody else to enter the ambush location. Could
                        also be handy for map or boardgames.

                        It is a very untidy looking bit of source code at the moment but I
                        will put it in the files section for folks to try. It should run on
                        browsers that have javascript enabled and on PC or Mac. Not so sure
                        about Palm systems though.....

                        Tony, thanks for all your help and encouragement so far.

                        Andrew

                        --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <delyall@y...> wrote:
                        > G'day Andrew
                        >
                        > --- In SoloWarGame@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Godden" <andrew_g@b...>
                        >
                        > > The most obvious idea was to break the table into a grid and
                        > > adapt "Battleship" as the basic mechanism with a javascript case
                        > > statement to calculate wether or not a contact has occurred.
                        >
                        > I know some people like hexes rather than squares. Hexes were
                        > introduced to get around the trouble people had with Pythagorean
                        > distances when using a square grid. Software is not so limited.
                        Seems
                        > strange to request it conform to a retrograde step. I suggest you
                        use
                        > a grid.
                        >
                        > > That does not take line of sight into account though, so there
                        > would
                        > > have to be provision made for "looking" into adjacent areas.
                        >
                        > LOS should be relatively easy.
                        >
                        > (a) If all you are doing is a grid without underlying terrain then
                        > you could base LOS on some function of distance from the observer
                        eg.
                        >
                        > LOS = Distance to target - 50
                        > If LOS > 0 then Sighted else Not Sighted.
                        >
                        > (b) If you have underlying terrain to take into account then things
                        > get more difficult. I think you end up having to have a look-up
                        table
                        > for the LOS effect of each type of terrain and then do a more
                        complex
                        > calculation.
                        >
                        > Varying
                        > > the size of the grid to represent visual or audio range would be
                        > > another (much easier)approach.
                        > >
                        > > The layout for such a file would consist of at least 2 drop down
                        > lists
                        > > (one for each player), with each list containing all the xy
                        > > coordinates for the table. Each turn, the players select their
                        > > location until a match occurs, at which time an alert box would
                        > come
                        > > up with the positions at the time of contact. The players can
                        then
                        > > place units on the table and conduct the combat.
                        >
                        > Which probably means the players have to track their position by
                        some
                        > means eg. on paper, then select the XY values representing their
                        > position. Adds a degree of complexity.
                        > >
                        > > My other idea was to take a map of the table and create a client
                        > side
                        > > image map with an alert box coming up if both players selected
                        the
                        > > same map section. The trouble is I can't find a way to allow the
                        > > script to activate after 2 clicks instead of one. I will have a
                        > look
                        > > around at some javascript guessing games and see if I can get
                        some
                        > > ideas....
                        > >
                        > > There are limitations for solo play because unlike Berthier you
                        > > cannot set a start and finish point and have the unit move
                        > > automatically each turn. I doubt that Javascript could handle
                        that
                        > > sort of programming and even if it could it is well beyond my
                        > present
                        > > skills!
                        >
                        > Smart move algorithms need a bit of processing grunt. I doubt if a
                        > script could do it in a reasonable time frame. I can email you the
                        > Berthier algorithm if you'd like to look at it - its not very long.
                        > It is basically Dijkstra's shortest path algorithm adjusted with a
                        > heuristic to pull the search to the desired direction.
                        >
                        > Instead of this approach you will probably have to get the players
                        to
                        > plot their move. May I suggest that they don't do this every move -
                        > it gets very tedious making the incremental moves. Instead let the
                        > players plot a complete movement path (that will take many moves to
                        > complete). Then each computer move just track further along the
                        > movement path. This could be automatic unless a player deliberately
                        > intervenes to create a new movement path.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        >
                        > Tony
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