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Re: My head hurts

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  • Christopher H. Holte
    ... Do you see how deceptively that is phrased? Shingon teachers won t deny the validity of esoteric teachings ***as esoteric teachings. Kobo dismissed
    Message 1 of 57 , Feb 1, 2009
      "Christopher H. Holte" <chris_holte@> wrote:
      >
      > > > > Quote:
      > > > Shingon stands out: "The esoteric Shingon Buddhist, the newcomer,
      > > > went so far as to deny the validity of transmission through
      > > > writing (hitsuju)" (DZ 3, p. 344)."
      > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > > > iirc, Shingon today does not do that. They do say that someone
      > > > revealed the Tantra; and this was apart from the Public Teachings of
      > > > the Buddha. I think.
      > >
      > > I'm sorry Robin, but I've had this argument with people who actually
      > > know something about Shingon and the Samaya, secret teachings, and the
      > > premise that one can only learn Tantra through day to day personal
      > > interaction is still there, as is the dismissal of the lotus Sutra as
      > > mere "exotericism." Have you been initiated? I haven't. But I have
      > > been flamed by Shingon believers.
      > > http://www.shingon.org/sbii/training/Tokudo.html
      > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > I have had some pleasant e-conversations with Reverend Eijo,
      > who is at Mt. Koya. We disagreed on a couple things; but we
      > had no arguments or flame wars. The issue I addressed above was:
      > "deny the validity of transmission through writing"
      Robin:
      > I do not think most Shingon believers deny the validity of
      > exoteric or public teachings.

      Do you see how deceptively that is phrased? Shingon teachers won't
      deny the validity of esoteric teachings ***as esoteric teachings.
      Kobo dismissed esoteric teachings the way a College Professor
      dismisses a Creationist elementary science reader.

      > Some might. I have never met any who do. Reverend Eijo certainly
      > did not take that position.

      "That position" the way Dengyo stated it or the way you restated it?

      > On the other hand, he does
      > discourage the use of Tantra by non-initiates; he thinks the Tantras
      > should be used as directed. He advised one guy to stick with the
      > Exoteric Teachings. I think that is fair enough. I have no interest,
      > personally, in messing around with the Tantras.

      The point Saicho/Dengyo makes in his Ebyo Sho, and that I encountered
      when discussing with people online is that they insist that Tantra and
      the teachings of Tantra are superior teachings that can be mastered
      only through interaction with a master. Saicho and Kukai were fighting
      because Saicho insisted on reading, transcribing and studying Tantric
      teachings and Sutras, and Kobo insisted that he'd never understand
      them unless he completed his training through him and could never
      understand esoteric teachings any other way.

      One way to tell esoteric teachers from exoteric teachers is that
      esoteric teachers will intentionally weed out people they don't think
      can possibly reach or benefit from the enlightenments offered through
      Tantra. "Transmission through sutras" isn't simply about being able
      to read them it is about being able to reach complete and final
      enlightenment. Tantra premises that its enlightenment is complete and
      final.

      Chris
    • Christopher H. Holte
      ... wrote: ... Silently? LOL, ask Andy if I m ever silent about anything. Chris
      Message 57 of 57 , Feb 5, 2009
        --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "gentno5" <gentno5@...>
        wrote:
        Chris:
        > I never really quit the Gakkai. I was kind of naive and thought
        > very highly for Ikeda when he seemed man enough to admit to
        > mistakes and take responsibility for errors. I found the split
        > a surprise. Later we sort of grew estranged when I realized
        > we were no longer going the same direction and I kept learning
        > details of all the religious politics and shennanigans. I still
        > admire Ikeda for his better traits, but then I don't really put
        > anyone on a pedestal anymore.
        Gent:
        > It sounds like you were one of those who silently drifted away, for a
        > variety of reasons.

        Silently? LOL, ask Andy if I'm ever silent about anything.

        Chris
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