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Re: Nichiren Shu vs. SGI debate - Enough!

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  • Brian Holly
    Dear Safwan, Perhaps there were others who enjoyed that discussion. I would guess not many, but who knows. If you want to continue it, you can start a Yahoo
    Message 1 of 32 , Dec 1, 2007
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      Dear Safwan,
      Perhaps there were others who enjoyed that discussion. I would
      guess not many, but who knows. If you want to continue it, you can
      start a Yahoo group expressly for that purpose. I know that I would
      join and look in from time to time. - Brian


      --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Safwan Zabalawi"
      <gachiriki@...> wrote:
      >
      > Byrd, what I meant by enjoying the debate was benefitting from it.
      I
      > really could benefit a lot from what was offered from all posts,
      the
      > positive and the negative, despite that I do not have to agree
      with
      > them. I increased my knowledge and strengthened my endurance.
      >
      > But now I feel I am getting restricted, somehow. However, my heart
      > is open to all.
      >
      > Never Disparaging.
      >
      > Namaste.
      >
      > gachiriki
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Byrd Ehlmann"
      > <wahzoh@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Safwan, I cannot imagine where you are getting the idea that
      > anyone
      > > but you is enjoying this stuff. HOnestly,the past couple of
      weeks
      > > have gotten tiresome, particularly with the over-long posts -
      you
      > > are enjoying this and no-one else that I know of.
      > >
      > > Will's characterization of the "dialogue" is spot-on. Please
      let
      > > it go. Thanks, Byrd in LA
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Safwan Zabalawi"
      > > <gachiriki@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Will, if people are enjoying a debate, why terminate it?
      > > >
      > > > After all, the subject is not just as you mentioned: Person 1
      vs
      > > > Person 2. In the dialogue there is an exchange of gosho
      > passages,
      > > > historical information, and various data from which one can
      > learn.
      > > >
      > > > Please make this "thought experiment", and see that no debate
      > > about
      > > > NShu - NShoShu- SGI .... What remains will be an exchange of
      > > > subjects which again and again refer to each of the schools
      > > > understanding of the teachings.
      > > >
      > > > I think you have initiated a wonderful stage for free exchange
      > of
      > > > views. Thank you for that.
      > > >
      > > > gachiriki
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Will Kallander"
      > > > <wkallander@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Enough debating Nichiren Shu versus SGI.
      > > > >
      > > > > It *might* have been interesting once, but the horse is
      dead.
      > I
      > > > would
      > > > > even be so bold as to say that the horse has since been
      > reborn,
      > > > grown
      > > > > old & ill, and died yet again.
      > > > >
      > > > > I'm calling a moratorium on debating SGI vs Nichiren Shu for
      > at
      > > > least
      > > > > two weeks. Debate offline, in blogs, email, whatever, if
      you
      > > must,
      > > > > but not here. It's just too annoying to keep re-reading
      this:
      > > > >
      > > > > Person 1: "NShu teaches this ___, which is clearly wrong
      > because
      > > > ____."
      > > > >
      > > > > Person 2: "Well, actually, no Nichiren Shu does not teach
      > > that."
      > > > >
      > > > > Person 1: "Yes it does, see here are some out-of-context
      > quotes
      > > in
      > > > > support of my assertion...".
      > > > >
      > > > > Person 2: "No, see, you've misunderstood ____ and ____ and
      > ___.
      > > > And
      > > > > ____ too."
      > > > >
      > > > > Person 1: "No, I haven't misunderstood anything, see ___.
      And
      > > > > therefore Nichiren Shu teaches this wrong too ____."
      > > > >
      > > > > Will: Does anyone have an icepick handy for me to stab into
      my
      > > > temple?
      > > > >
      > > > > --------
      > > > >
      > > > > Note: Person 1 is not a single person, and neither is Person
      > 2.
      > > At
      > > > > some point, several people are playing one role or the
      other,
      > > but
      > > > the
      > > > > parody (strangely) still holds. Every so often, something
      > good
      > > > comes
      > > > > of such a thread, something insightful about Buddhism is
      > posted,
      > > or
      > > > > myth about NShu believes is shattered (like revealing that
      > NShu
      > > > does
      > > > > not in fact worship magic foxes, etc). So I've been
      reluctant
      > > to
      > > > call
      > > > > an end to the thread, but I'm convinced that the noise is
      > > deafening
      > > > > and the signal is muted.
      > > > >
      > > > > In closing, I'm not trying to single anyone out, my parody
      is
      > > > merely a
      > > > > lampoon of recent threads on this topic. The topic has run
      > it's
      > > > > course for now, I'm declaring the topic dead.
      > > > >
      > > > > --Will
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Robin Beck
      ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Buddha s intention/will {cetana}, desire/wish {chanda}, motive {samskara}, or will of mind {Citta Niyama} are all valid notions. I
      Message 32 of 32 , Dec 3, 2007
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        --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher H. Holte"
        <chris_holte@...> wrote:
        >
        > To boil that all down, Robin, your point seems to be that the notion
        > of "will of the Buddha" is something injected into Buddhism from
        > western thought, or perhaps Japanese culture but that has nothing to
        > do with Buddhism, at least as it was taught in Sanscrit or Pali.
        >
        > Strategy of the Buddha I have no problem with. But the "will of
        > history" has a particular place in history that is anathema to me.
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Buddha's intention/will {cetana}, desire/wish {chanda}, motive
        {samskara}, or will of mind {Citta Niyama} are all valid notions. I
        agree that the 'Will of the Buddha' can be twisted to mean something
        we surrender to, or rally around. I used to get all 'fired up,' which
        is just an angry emotional state.

        I think it has more to do with purifying our actions, senses, thoughts
        / emotions, motives, and consciousness.

        r

        >
        > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Robin Beck"
        > <rrobinrb@> wrote:
        >
        > > >
        > > > "Safwan Zabalawi" <gachiriki@> wrote:
        > > > > Mick, Kosenrufu is the will of the Buddha, and Nichiren's
        teachings
        > > > > are rather different from social club policies:
        > > >
        > > > The more I study history and current politics the more the whole
        idea
        > > > of a "will of the Buddha" as mass movement strikes me as an
        oxymoron.
        > > > The will of the Buddha might be world peace. It might be well
        > > > expressed as "universal propagation" --
        > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > > I am nor sure what will or kosen-rufu mean. There are three words I
        > > have seen translated as will.
        > >
        > > One, in the context of causality, is citta, it is given as one of the
        > > causes and conditions, of which karma is only one. I think there,
        > > citta infers free will; as apposed to a conditioned response. Citta
        > > generally means mind/heart; but like mind in English, has different
        > > nuances.
        > >
        > > Another, in the context of 100 dharmas, is cetana, rendered as
        > > volition. I am pretty sure this refers to intention.
        > >
        > > Then there is samskara-skandha, one of the 5 components or aggregates.
        > > This often translated as will or volition. However, it includes
        > > habitual and conditioned impulses; so motive is a batter term. Cetana
        > > might be a subset of of samskara.
        > >
        > > I went through this, because I think the 'Buddha's Intention' has to
        > > be cultivated, and has to be pure and unconditioned. Otherwise,
        > > staying what is the Buddha's Will seems like an emotional thing, or
        > > even a parroted phrase. Do we say it while shaking our fist; or with
        > > our hands in gassho?
        > >
        > > Kosen-fufu literally means widespread propagation? If that is our
        > > will, then Mick's half sarcastic idea has merit. I think the root
        > > meaning of upaya is 'approach.' Strategery; a mix of strategy and
        > > tactics, is part of upaya. In sales, 'approach' is about making
        > > contact with prospects on a favorable basis.
        > >
        > > robin
        > >
        >
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