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Re: [SGI] To Ryuei

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  • Robin Ray Beck
    ... wrote: Nichiren was a product of Japanese [warrior] culture , as is PI, and thus some of their writing comes across as agressive - even
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
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      --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "wyn"
      <wyn.miskelly@n...> wrote:
      Nichiren was a product of Japanese [warrior] culture , as is PI,
      and thus some of their writing comes across as agressive - even
      warlike. An outsider reading the Gosho can pick up a wrong
      impression. Conider, for example, the Gosho which talk about
      someone's head 'being split into 7 pieces'. Shortly after I started
      practicing I was shown a university textbook which portrayed
      Nichiren as an angry, violent revolutionary.

      PI's guidance too seems to rely very heavily on words
      like 'battle', 'victory', 'struggle', 'defeat' etc. Anyone who is
      not a product of Japanese culture could also get the wrong
      impression from this sort of guidance. I think that this sort of
      language should be toned down in English translations.
      >
      > wyn
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Hi Wyn,

      I also read Ryuie's reply
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SokaGakkaiInternational/message/37147

      You no doubt have seen the brief list of Gosho quotes, where
      Nichiren talks abour burning temples, beheading monks, and the like.
      I am wondering if you think these phrases should be rewriiten, to
      express them in a manner that reflects current sensibilities? This
      topic is often a bone of contention in e-discussion.

      I guess I am a bit of a barbarian, I enjoy Nichiren's "salty
      metaphor" laced sarcasm. I especially like this one:

      "The Buddha stated that, in the latter age, monks and nuns with the
      hearts of dogs would be as numerous as the sands of the Ganges. By
      this he meant that the monks and nuns of that day would be attached
      to fame and fortune. Because they wear robes and surplices, they
      look like ordinary monks and nuns. But in their hearts they wield a
      sword of distorted views, hastening here and there among their
      patrons and filling them with countless lies so as to keep them away
      from other priests or nuns. Thus they strive to keep their patrons
      to themselves and prevent other monks or nuns from coming near them,
      like a dog who goes to a house to be fed, but growls and springs to
      attack the moment another dog approaches. Each and every one of
      these priests and nuns is certain to fall into the evil paths."
      From "On the Fourteen Slanders." Written near the end of 1276, this
      letter was a reply to the laypriest Matsuno Rokuro Saemon

      Earlier that same year, Ryokan's temple, Gokurakuji burnt down.
      About this, Nichiren wrote:

      "A name reveals the fundamental nature of a body. Numerous people in
      all sectors of society throughout Kamakura respect this slanderous
      and anything but saintly, Ryokabo (double-fire priest), as a
      teacher. One fire broke out in his own temple of Gokurakuji
      (Paradise temple) and consequently, his temple was transformed into
      Jigokuji (Hell temple). Another fire spread throughout Kamakura and
      burnt down the Shogun's palace. Furthermore, this incendiary not
      only ravaged the country in this life, but foretells that future
      priests and their disciples throughout all Japan will together fall
      into the Hell of Incessant Suffering and burn in its karmic flame.
      These grumbling priests will not heed a wise man's words and as a
      result, this type of disaster has come about. What a pity!"

      "Oshajo no Koto (The Royal Palace, Rajagriha)." Written to Shijo
      Kingo.

      The pity is that so many of Nichiren's successors have acted like
      Ryokan and Doryu, and I do not just mean Priests. Too often, those
      who speak out with different opinions are smeared, marginalized, or
      ridiculed. Instead of addressing the issues; they attack the
      Messenger.

      People need to realize that is what Doryu of Kenchoji and Ryokan of
      Gokurakuji had done to Nichiren. Nichiren had used faith, logic, &
      reason to 'defeat'them. When ridiculing Nichiren failed, they spread
      rumors, and provoked folloers to burn down his Kamakura hermitages
      several times. And they were behind what happened at Yuigahama
      beach; first the exile to Izu, then tatsunokuchi. So comments like
      this have a context:

      "All the Nembutsu and Zen temples such as Kencho-ji, Jufuku-ji,
      Gokuraku-ji, Daibutsu-den and Joraku-ji should be burned to the
      ground and their priests taken to Yuigahama to have their heads cut
      off! If this is not done, then Japan is certain to be destroyed!

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Kenchoji, Doryu, & Kamakura Zen
      Tokiyori Hojo (1227-1263), the Fifth Hojo Regent and the founder of
      the Temple, was an ardent devotee of Zen. Since there was no Zen
      master in Japan, he looked for an excellent Zen priest in China.
      Hearing Zen was getting popular in Japan, Priest Doryu Rankei (1213-
      1278), a Chinese Zen master under the Sung Dynasty born in Zhejiang
      Province near Shanghai, left China in 1246 at age 33 to teach Zen in
      Japan. He first stayed in Kyushu and then went to Kyoto before
      coming to Kamakura. In Kamakura, he started serving in Jufukuji at
      first, and then was invited to Kenchoji by Tokiyori Hojo to
      officiate as the founding priest. In 1262, he moved to Ken-ninji in
      Kyoto, which also belonged to the Rinzai sect and ranked third of
      the Five Great Zen Temples in Kyoto.
      http://tinyurl.com/65brj
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Gokurakuji & Ryokan
      Founding priest Ryokan Ninsho (1217-1303) is well known for his
      devotion to philanthropic activities throughout his life. He was
      born in Nara Prefecture. At the age of 13, he was already a
      vegetarian honoring one of the Five Buddhist Commandments and
      studied Shingon Ritsu Buddhism at Saidaiji {sigh-dye-gee} in Nara.
      Back then, Shigetoki Hojo (1198-1261), the third son of the Second
      Regent Yoshitoki Hojo, was building his residence in this vicinity.
      On the contrary, during the great drought of 1271, Ryokan vied with
      Nichiren in praying for rain and failed. After that he contrived to
      have accusations brought against Nichiren., which eventually led to
      the Tatsunokuchi Persecution, in which Nichiren came near to being
      executed, and Nichiren's subsequent exile to the island of Sado. For
      many years Ryokan harrassed Nichiren and his disciples, both openly
      and covertly
      http://tinyurl.com/44os8
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      metta,

      robin
    • gachiriki
      Wyn, your analysis of Nichiren and Ikeda as products of Japanese culture does not make sense in terms of Buddhism. In Buddhism people and individuals
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 1, 2004
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        Wyn, your analysis of Nichiren and Ikeda as "products of Japanese
        culture" does not make sense in terms of Buddhism. In Buddhism
        people and individuals manifest the Ten Worlds.

        Also, if you think that Japanese state of Anger is different from an
        American or Chinese state of Anger, then this is a new theory, never
        heard before.

        Of course there are different manifestations of unique cultural
        backgrounds, but the essence is exactly - exactly - the same.
        Otherwise the Ten Worlds would have been racially different.

        For example, take *love* into consideration. Love is in the state
        of Joy. This state, or feeling, is common to all individuals of all
        cultures, and that's why people of different nationalities come to
        the same state of love - despite superficial differences.

        Also: people of all culturtes face daily problems, and they
        struggle, and fight to win in life. That's exactly why P.Ikeda's
        guidance is taken to heart by many people who are not Japanese,
        because he is speaking about the struggle in daily life matters
        (common to all people). When you want to pass an exam you struggle,
        don't you? Competition is strife in all aspects, including work and
        relationships, and winning means winning over our ego and divisions,
        which prevents us from harmony in life. This is what Buddhism
        teaches and what Ikeda correctly explains.

        gachiriki


        --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "wyn"
        <wyn.miskelly@n...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: gachiriki
        >
        > >>>I do not believe that the word "Nichiren" should be used by
        anyone
        > to associate him with violence. It is just self defeating for
        > NichirenShu to bear the name Nichiren and portray Nichiren in the
        > same time as a person who provoked violence or approved it.
        >
        > Nichiren was a product of Japanese [warrior] culture , as is PI,
        and thus some of their writing comes across as agressive - even
        warlike. An outsider reading the Gosho can pick up a wrong
        impression. Conider, for example, the Gosho which talk about
        someone's head 'being split into 7 pieces'. Shortly after I started
        practicing I was shown a university textbook which portrayed
        Nichiren as an angry, violent revolutionary.
        >
        > PI's guidance too seems to rely very heavily on words
        like 'battle', 'victory', 'struggle', 'defeat' etc. Anyone who is
        not a product of Japanese culture could also get the wrong
        impression from this sort of guidance. I think that this sort of
        language should be toned down in English translations.
        >
        > wyn
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sokujoju
        ... wrote: ... Ryuei, you may want to reconsider this. Regardless of the context, this statement is entirely outside of Nichiren
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
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          --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, ryuei2000
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          <major snip>
          > I think the guidance in chapter 14 of the Lotus Sutra given by
          > Shakyamuni Buddha is what we should model ourselves on.
          >
          > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
          > Ryuei
          >
          > ******************************************************************
          Ryuei, you may want to reconsider this.

          Regardless of the context, this statement is entirely outside of
          Nichiren Buddhism as expounded by the founder. First, this chapter
          is exclusionary. Are you saying you intend to practice like this:
          "If he enters the house of another person, he should not engage in
          talk with the young girls, unmarried women or widows. Nor should he
          go near the five types of unmanly men or have any close dealings
          with them"?
          Or this:
          "He should not delight in nurturing underage disciples, shramaneras
          or children, and should not delight in sharing the same teacher with
          them. He should constantly take pleasure in sitting in meditation,
          being in quiet surroundings and learning to still his mind"?
          Or this:
          "Also he must not associate with
          slaughterers or flesh-carvers,
          those who hunt animals or catch fish,
          or kill to do harm for profit.
          Those who peddle meat for a living
          or display women and sell their favors -
          all persons such as this
          one should never associate with.
          Those engaged in hazardous sports,
          wrestling, or other kinds of amusements,
          women of lascivious nature -
          never associate with any of these."?

          To whom are you willing to teach the Sutra?

          Even more importantly, Nichiren points out that the 14th chapter was
          taught before the arrival of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. After
          the people who heard this vowed to protect the Sutra in "the age
          after the Buddha has entered extinction," Shakyamuni tells them
          Never Mind - it's not your job anyway. Then the B of E. appear.
          That's us, according to "The True Entity of all Phenomena." So the
          next 8 chapters tell us how to practice, not the 14th. Nichiren
          boils this down to chanting and teaching others, with the spirit
          (read "attitude", not "ghost") of Never Disparaging.

          No need for me to belabor the point.

          Regards
          Steve
        • Brian Holly
          Steve, you might ask yourself which guidance in chapter 14 Michael was referrring to. - Brian ... chapter ... he ... shramaneras ... with ... was ... the
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
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            Steve, you might ask yourself which guidance in chapter 14 Michael
            was referrring to. - Brian


            --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, sokujoju
            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, ryuei2000
            > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > <major snip>
            > > I think the guidance in chapter 14 of the Lotus Sutra given by
            > > Shakyamuni Buddha is what we should model ourselves on.
            > >
            > > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
            > > Ryuei
            > >
            > >
            ******************************************************************
            > Ryuei, you may want to reconsider this.
            >
            > Regardless of the context, this statement is entirely outside of
            > Nichiren Buddhism as expounded by the founder. First, this
            chapter
            > is exclusionary. Are you saying you intend to practice like this:
            > "If he enters the house of another person, he should not engage in
            > talk with the young girls, unmarried women or widows. Nor should
            he
            > go near the five types of unmanly men or have any close dealings
            > with them"?
            > Or this:
            > "He should not delight in nurturing underage disciples,
            shramaneras
            > or children, and should not delight in sharing the same teacher
            with
            > them. He should constantly take pleasure in sitting in meditation,
            > being in quiet surroundings and learning to still his mind"?
            > Or this:
            > "Also he must not associate with
            > slaughterers or flesh-carvers,
            > those who hunt animals or catch fish,
            > or kill to do harm for profit.
            > Those who peddle meat for a living
            > or display women and sell their favors -
            > all persons such as this
            > one should never associate with.
            > Those engaged in hazardous sports,
            > wrestling, or other kinds of amusements,
            > women of lascivious nature -
            > never associate with any of these."?
            >
            > To whom are you willing to teach the Sutra?
            >
            > Even more importantly, Nichiren points out that the 14th chapter
            was
            > taught before the arrival of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. After
            > the people who heard this vowed to protect the Sutra in "the age
            > after the Buddha has entered extinction," Shakyamuni tells them
            > Never Mind - it's not your job anyway. Then the B of E. appear.
            > That's us, according to "The True Entity of all Phenomena." So
            the
            > next 8 chapters tell us how to practice, not the 14th. Nichiren
            > boils this down to chanting and teaching others, with the spirit
            > (read "attitude", not "ghost") of Never Disparaging.
            >
            > No need for me to belabor the point.
            >
            > Regards
            > Steve
          • Joe
            Excuse my ignorance please. But where are these quotes below from? Who is saying these things? Is it from the LS? What chapter? Thanks, Joe ... with
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
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              Excuse my ignorance please. But where are these quotes below from?
              Who is saying these things? Is it from the LS? What chapter?

              Thanks,
              Joe

              sokujoju wrote:
              > "If he enters the house of another person, he should not engage in
              > talk with the young girls, unmarried women or widows. Nor should he
              > go near the five types of unmanly men or have any close dealings
              > with them"?


              > "He should not delight in nurturing underage disciples, shramaneras
              > or children, and should not delight in sharing the same teacher
              with
              > them. He should constantly take pleasure in sitting in meditation,
              > being in quiet surroundings and learning to still his mind"?


              > "Also he must not associate with
              > slaughterers or flesh-carvers,
              > those who hunt animals or catch fish,
              > or kill to do harm for profit.
              > Those who peddle meat for a living
              > or display women and sell their favors -
              > all persons such as this
              > one should never associate with.
              > Those engaged in hazardous sports,
              > wrestling, or other kinds of amusements,
              > women of lascivious nature -
              > never associate with any of these."?
            • Brian Holly
              ... It s the Schwartenegger Sutra. It advises staying away from girlie men and legislators. No, it is from the LS: http://www.sgi-
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
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                --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"
                <mysterium777@y...> wrote:
                > Excuse my ignorance please. But where are these quotes below from?
                > Who is saying these things? Is it from the LS? What chapter?
                >
                >
                It's the Schwartenegger Sutra. It advises staying away from girlie
                men and legislators.

                No, it is from the LS:

                http://www.sgi-
                usa.org/buddhism/library/Buddhism/LotusSutra/text/Chap14.htm
              • ryuei2000
                ... from? ... Seriously though, I have seen nowhere in the gosho where Nichiren says to discount chapter 14. In fact, chapter 14 specifically says that it
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
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                  --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Holly"
                  <bholly72@h...> wrote:
                  > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"
                  > <mysterium777@y...> wrote:
                  > > Excuse my ignorance please. But where are these quotes below
                  from?
                  > > Who is saying these things? Is it from the LS? What chapter?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > It's the Schwartenegger Sutra. It advises staying away from girlie
                  > men and legislators.

                  ROFLMAO! That was a good one. > No, it is from the LS:

                  >
                  > http://www.sgi-
                  > usa.org/buddhism/library/Buddhism/LotusSutra/text/Chap14.htm

                  Seriously though, I have seen nowhere in the gosho where Nichiren
                  says to discount chapter 14. In fact, chapter 14 specifically says
                  that it should be followed in the ages after the Buddha's extinciton.

                  The seemingly exclusionary portion quoted is directed at monks who
                  should not be approaching these people for gain - whether in terms
                  of sexual gratification, political power, or offerings. But, the
                  passage does say they can teach the Lotus Sutra if these people
                  approach them. Basically, it is counseling the monastic bodhisattva
                  not to approach people with ulterior motives. The passage right
                  after that expounds upon emptiness, and the verse section which
                  follows makes it even clearer that all these categories are
                  ultimately empty.

                  This chapter is referred to as the chapter which emphasizes shoju in
                  contrast to chapters 13 or 20. But what is interesting to me is that
                  spirit of showing respect to all beings in this chapter is fully
                  consistent with chapters 13 and especially 20. You need to read
                  beyond that first section to see where chapter 14 is really going
                  with it.

                  So what traditional Nichiren Buddhists learn from this chapter is
                  how to view all beings with compassion and not ulterior motives, and
                  to not deride them for false views or limited aspirations but to
                  teach the Dharma to all beings equally. Though initially it seems to
                  be speaking to monks, on a deeper level it is speaking to all those
                  who would be teachers of the Lotus Sutra in the ages after the
                  parinirvana of Shakyamuni Buddha.


                  Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                  Ryuei

                  ******************************************************************
                • closeconnections
                  Steve - I had assumed Ryuei was referring to the 4 practices that ease the way. Here are some bits from Burton Watson s translation of Chapter 14: First they
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
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                    Steve - I had assumed Ryuei was referring to the 4 practices that
                    ease the way. Here are some bits from Burton Watson's translation of
                    Chapter 14:

                    "First they should abide by the practices and associations proper for
                    bodhisattvas so that they can expound this sutra for the sake of
                    living beings. Manjushri, what do I mean by the practices of a
                    bodhisattva or mahasattva? If a bodhisattva or mahasattva takes his
                    stand on perseverance, is gentle and compliant, never violent, and
                    never alarmed in mind; and if with regard to phenomena he takes no
                    action but observes the true entiry of phenomena without acting or
                    making any distinction, then this one might call the practices of a
                    bodhisattva and mahasattva."

                    snip

                    "Next, the bodhisattva or mahasattva should view all phenomena as
                    empty, that being their true entity. They do not turn upside down, do
                    not move, do not regress, do not revolve. They are like empty space,
                    without innate nature, beyond the reach of all words. They are not
                    born, do not emerge, do not arise. They are without name, without
                    form, without true being. They are without volume, without limits,
                    without hindrance, without barriers. It is only through causes and
                    conditions that they exist, and come to be taken upside down, to be
                    born. Therefore I say that one should constantly delight in viewing
                    the form of phenomena as this. This is what I call the second thing
                    that the bodhisattva or mahasattva should associate himself with."

                    snip

                    "Also one should never engage in frivolous debate over the various
                    doctrines or dispute or wrangle over them. With regard to all living
                    beings one should think of them with great compassion. With regard to
                    the Thus Come Ones, think of them as kindly fathers; with regard to
                    the bodhisattvas, think of them as great teachers. Toward the great
                    bodhisattvas of the ten directions at all times maintain a serious
                    mind, paying them due reverence and obeisance. To all living beings
                    preach the Law and in an equitable manner. Because a person is
                    heedful of the Law, that does not mean one should vary the amount of
                    preaching. Even to those who show a profound love for the Law one
                    should not on that account preach at greater length.

                    "Manjushri, if among these bodhisattvas and mahasattvas there are
                    those who in the latter age hereafter, when the Law is about to
                    perish, succeed in carrying out this third set of peaceful practices,
                    then when they preach this Law they will be free from anxiety and
                    confusion, and will find good fellow students to read and recite this
                    sutra with. They will attract a large assembly of persons who come to
                    listen and assent. After they have listened, they will embrace; after
                    they have embraced, they will recite; after they have recited, they
                    will preach; and after they have preached, they will copy, or will
                    cause others to copy, and will present offerings to the sutra rolls,
                    treating them with reverence, respect and praise."

                    snip

                    "Manjushri after the Thus Come One has entered extinction, if among
                    these bodhisattvas and mahasattvas there are those who will succeed
                    in carrying out this fourth set of rules, then when they preach the
                    Law they will commit no error. Monks, nuns, laymen, laywomen, and
                    rulers, princes, great ministers, common people, Brahmans and
                    householders will constantly offer them alms and will revere, respect
                    and praise them. The heavenly beings in the sky, in order to listen
                    to the Law, will constantly follow and attend them. If they are in a
                    settlement or town or in a quiet and deserted place or a forest and
                    people come and want to ask them difficult questions, the heavenly
                    beings day and night will for the sake of the Law constantly guard
                    and protect them and will cause all the listeners to rejoice. Why?
                    Because this sutra is protected by the supernatural powers of all the
                    Buddhas of the past, future, and present."

                    Colin


                    --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, sokujoju
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, ryuei2000
                    > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > <major snip>
                    > > I think the guidance in chapter 14 of the Lotus Sutra given by
                    > > Shakyamuni Buddha is what we should model ourselves on.
                    > >
                    > > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                    > > Ryuei
                    > >
                    > > ******************************************************************
                    > Ryuei, you may want to reconsider this.
                    >
                    > Regardless of the context, this statement is entirely outside of
                    > Nichiren Buddhism as expounded by the founder. First, this chapter
                    > is exclusionary. Are you saying you intend to practice like this:
                    > "If he enters the house of another person, he should not engage in
                    > talk with the young girls, unmarried women or widows. Nor should he
                    > go near the five types of unmanly men or have any close dealings
                    > with them"?
                    > Or this:
                    > "He should not delight in nurturing underage disciples, shramaneras
                    > or children, and should not delight in sharing the same teacher
                    with
                    > them. He should constantly take pleasure in sitting in meditation,
                    > being in quiet surroundings and learning to still his mind"?
                    > Or this:
                    > "Also he must not associate with
                    > slaughterers or flesh-carvers,
                    > those who hunt animals or catch fish,
                    > or kill to do harm for profit.
                    > Those who peddle meat for a living
                    > or display women and sell their favors -
                    > all persons such as this
                    > one should never associate with.
                    > Those engaged in hazardous sports,
                    > wrestling, or other kinds of amusements,
                    > women of lascivious nature -
                    > never associate with any of these."?
                    >
                    > To whom are you willing to teach the Sutra?
                    >
                    > Even more importantly, Nichiren points out that the 14th chapter
                    was
                    > taught before the arrival of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. After
                    > the people who heard this vowed to protect the Sutra in "the age
                    > after the Buddha has entered extinction," Shakyamuni tells them
                    > Never Mind - it's not your job anyway. Then the B of E. appear.
                    > That's us, according to "The True Entity of all Phenomena." So the
                    > next 8 chapters tell us how to practice, not the 14th. Nichiren
                    > boils this down to chanting and teaching others, with the spirit
                    > (read "attitude", not "ghost") of Never Disparaging.
                    >
                    > No need for me to belabor the point.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > Steve
                  • sokujoju
                    ... Thank you for your patient and respectful answer. And I apologize for any appearance of confrontation in my post. The fourteenth chapter certainly
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
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                      --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, ryuei2000
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Holly"
                      > <bholly72@h...> wrote:
                      > > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"
                      > > <mysterium777@y...> wrote:
                      > > > Excuse my ignorance please. But where are these quotes below
                      > from?
                      > > > Who is saying these things? Is it from the LS? What chapter?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > It's the Schwartenegger Sutra. It advises staying away from girlie
                      > > men and legislators.
                      >
                      > ROFLMAO! That was a good one. > No, it is from the LS:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > http://www.sgi-
                      > > usa.org/buddhism/library/Buddhism/LotusSutra/text/Chap14.htm
                      >
                      > Seriously though, I have seen nowhere in the gosho where Nichiren
                      > says to discount chapter 14. In fact, chapter 14 specifically says
                      > that it should be followed in the ages after the Buddha's extinciton.
                      >
                      > The seemingly exclusionary portion quoted is directed at monks who
                      > should not be approaching these people for gain - whether in terms
                      > of sexual gratification, political power, or offerings. But, the
                      > passage does say they can teach the Lotus Sutra if these people
                      > approach them. Basically, it is counseling the monastic bodhisattva
                      > not to approach people with ulterior motives. The passage right
                      > after that expounds upon emptiness, and the verse section which
                      > follows makes it even clearer that all these categories are
                      > ultimately empty.
                      >
                      > This chapter is referred to as the chapter which emphasizes shoju in
                      > contrast to chapters 13 or 20. But what is interesting to me is that
                      > spirit of showing respect to all beings in this chapter is fully
                      > consistent with chapters 13 and especially 20. You need to read
                      > beyond that first section to see where chapter 14 is really going
                      > with it.
                      >
                      > So what traditional Nichiren Buddhists learn from this chapter is
                      > how to view all beings with compassion and not ulterior motives, and
                      > to not deride them for false views or limited aspirations but to
                      > teach the Dharma to all beings equally. Though initially it seems to
                      > be speaking to monks, on a deeper level it is speaking to all those
                      > who would be teachers of the Lotus Sutra in the ages after the
                      > parinirvana of Shakyamuni Buddha.
                      >
                      >
                      > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                      > Ryuei
                      >
                      > ******************************************************************

                      Thank you for your patient and respectful answer. And I apologize for
                      any appearance of confrontation in my post. The fourteenth chapter
                      certainly preaches respect for all beings (briefly put). I can't find
                      the phrase that says they can teach the Lotus Sutra if these people
                      (specifically, those that the first verse says to avoid) approach
                      them. Could you point it out?
                      Even so, although there are admirable teachings in this chapter,
                      Nichiren says "All the teachings other than the "one chapter and two
                      halves" are Hinayana in nature and erroneous. Not only do they fail to
                      lead to enlightenment, but also they lack the truth. Those who believe
                      in them are meager in virtue, heavy with defilement, ignorant, poor,
                      solitary, and like birds and beasts [that do not know their own
                      parents]." (The Object of Devotion...)
                      Note that the chapter also states "No one will trouble them or revile
                      them [when they preach the Law in the age to come]" Doesn't Nichiren
                      prefer "... how much worse will it be after his passing?"

                      I feel that my assertion that Nichiren discounts Chapter 14 is
                      supported by this, also from "The Object...":
                      "'At that time the Buddha said to the bodhisattvas and mahasattvas:
                      'Leave off, good men! There is no need for you to protect and embrace
                      this sutra.' " This statement totally contradicts the Buddha's
                      exhortations in the preceding five chapters from the "Teacher of the
                      Law" [to the "Peaceful Practices"]."

                      So I guess my point is that I think it's inappropriate for a teacher
                      of this Buddhism to point people to the Peaceful Practices chapter
                      without the guidelines to a selective reading of it which you have
                      provided above.

                      With respect
                      Steve
                    • ryuei2000
                      ... for ... find ... Sure, go to the link Brian provided which leads to the Burton Watson translation then go to the third paragraph where you will find this
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, sokujoju
                        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > Thank you for your patient and respectful answer. And I apologize
                        for
                        > any appearance of confrontation in my post. The fourteenth chapter
                        > certainly preaches respect for all beings (briefly put). I can't
                        find
                        > the phrase that says they can teach the Lotus Sutra if these people
                        > (specifically, those that the first verse says to avoid) approach
                        > them. Could you point it out?


                        Sure, go to the link Brian provided which leads to the Burton Watson
                        translation then go to the third paragraph where you will find this
                        statement:

                        <<If such persons at times come to one, then one may preach the Law
                        for them, but one should expect nothing from it. Again one should
                        not associate with monks, nuns, laymen or laywomen who seek to
                        become voice-hearers, nor should one question or visit them. One
                        should not stay with them in the same room, or in the place where
                        one exercises, or in the lecture hall. One should not join them in
                        their activities. If at times they come to one, one should preach
                        the Law in accordance with what is appropriate, but should expect
                        nothing from it. >>


                        So if they approach you then preach the Dharma but do not do so
                        to "get anything out of it" so to speak.




                        > Even so, although there are admirable teachings in this chapter,
                        > Nichiren says "All the teachings other than the "one chapter and
                        two
                        > halves" are Hinayana in nature and erroneous. Not only do they
                        fail to
                        > lead to enlightenment, but also they lack the truth. Those who
                        believe
                        > in them are meager in virtue, heavy with defilement, ignorant,
                        poor,
                        > solitary, and like birds and beasts [that do not know their own
                        > parents]." (The Object of Devotion...)
                        > Note that the chapter also states "No one will trouble them or
                        revile
                        > them [when they preach the Law in the age to come]" Doesn't
                        Nichiren
                        > prefer "... how much worse will it be after his passing?"

                        Again, chapter 14 is the chapter of shoju and I would therefore
                        direct people to the last part of Kaimoku Sho (one of Nichiren's
                        major writings) where he says to use shoju or shakubuku as
                        appropriate and not to rely solely on one or the other.

                        But in fact, one can do the shakubuku practice of Bodhisattva Never
                        Despise in chapter 20 by declaring the truth without backing down,
                        but at the same time refrain from putting down the beliefs of others
                        in accord with chap. 14. SGI already does this in many cases, as it
                        refrains from publicly criticizing Christianity or Islam. I am often
                        a little more blunt in my evaluations of monotheism. I think each
                        practitioner of the Lotus Sutra must decide what is compassionate
                        and appropriate in light of their actual circumstances. In Denmark
                        for instance, I think votaries of the Lotus Sutra should denounce
                        superstitious and harmful practices like female circumcision by
                        people moving into their country and who insist that this horrible
                        practice is somehow a religious necessity. There is a case where the
                        value of all beings (including women) taught in the Lotus Sutra
                        should be upheld over and against a degrading and harmful
                        superstition. But in the USA, a book like Charles Atkin's Modern
                        Buddhist Healing can share the Odaimoku with people of all religions
                        without necessarily having to discount Christian prayer or New Age
                        practices, which would have detracted from the purpose of that book.

                        But I have not yet really answered your question - more below:


                        > I feel that my assertion that Nichiren discounts Chapter 14 is
                        > supported by this, also from "The Object...":
                        > "'At that time the Buddha said to the bodhisattvas and mahasattvas:
                        > 'Leave off, good men! There is no need for you to protect and
                        embrace
                        > this sutra.' " This statement totally contradicts the Buddha's
                        > exhortations in the preceding five chapters from the "Teacher of
                        the
                        > Law" [to the "Peaceful Practices"]."
                        >
                        > So I guess my point is that I think it's inappropriate for a
                        teacher
                        > of this Buddhism to point people to the Peaceful Practices chapter
                        > without the guidelines to a selective reading of it which you have
                        > provided above.


                        One has to pay careful attention to the context and the relative
                        evaluation of things. Chapter 14 and the rest are in fact Hinayana
                        when compared to the "one chapter and two-halves" because unlike
                        the "one chapter and two-halves" they do not explicitly teach the
                        Unborn and Deathless nature of Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment and
                        therefore our own. They seemingly set up requirements for the
                        attainment of buddhahood which not all people can fulfill (at least
                        at present in the age of Mappo). So to the extent that the other
                        chapters and even other sutras lead to faith and joy in the one
                        chapter and two halves they can share in its ultimate Mahayana
                        orientation. They are the rivers flowing into the sea of the Honmon
                        or Original Gate. But if they chapters or sutras or upheld over and
                        against what they should lead to - the one chapter and two halves -
                        then they are made to betray their own purpose and one is stuck with
                        only their explicate meaning which only goes so far. On the other
                        hand, when one truly has the spirit of Namu Myoho Renge Kyo, then
                        the other chapters and sutras reveal their hidden virtues as partial
                        aspects of the wonder and merit of the Wonderful Dharma (Myoho)
                        which are all manifest in the life of the practitioner and should be
                        appreciated as such.

                        Now the provisional bodhisattvas do indeed uphold these other sutras
                        and chapters until such time as the one chapter and two halves
                        and/or the seven characters of Odaimoku can be revealed. The
                        bodhisattvas of the earth, the original disciples of the Original
                        Buddha, can then show these teachings in the new light of Namu Myoho
                        Renge Kyo.

                        For instance, we recite chapter 2 as part of our practice and esp.
                        we recite the ten suchnesses three times in accordance with the
                        unity of the three truths. All these are provisional Mahayana
                        teachings. But we do so to set up the context for a fuller
                        appreciation of the actuality of ichinen sanzen, and in turn the
                        recitation of chapter 16 shows how the theoretical side of ichinen
                        sanzen leads to our present actualization of it in our practice of
                        Odaimoku. So chapter 2 sets up the theory and chapter 16 actualizes
                        that which has been set up in terms of the Unborn and Deathless
                        nature of the Buddha's enlightnment and how that impacts our own
                        practice and realization of buddhahood here and now. The two parts -
                        the Trace Gate and Original Gate - illuminate each other though the
                        Original Gate is certainly held to be primary by all Nichiren
                        Buddhists.

                        The same can be said of the other chapters and sutras and the
                        teachings of the provisional bodhisattvas. They derive their value
                        from the core of the Lotus Sutra, but they also serve to lead to
                        that core and explicate various aspects of the core and in turn the
                        real underlying fullness of their meaning is illuminated by that
                        core.

                        But you are right - a good commentary is needed so that these other
                        chapters and sutras are consistently interpreted in the light of the
                        one chapter and two halves the eight chapters and Nichiren Shonin's
                        teachings in general so that one does not mistakenly drift back into
                        provisional perspectives.

                        Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                        Ryuei

                        *********************************************************************
                      • sokujoju
                        -- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, ryuei2000 ... I m almost entirely in agreement. But I d like to make an observation that I hope is more than a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          -- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, ryuei2000
                          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, sokujoju
                          > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > Thank you for your patient and respectful answer. And I apologize
                          > for
                          > > any appearance of confrontation in my post. The fourteenth chapter
                          > > certainly preaches respect for all beings (briefly put). I can't
                          > find
                          > > the phrase that says they can teach the Lotus Sutra if these people
                          > > (specifically, those that the first verse says to avoid) approach
                          > > them. Could you point it out?
                          >
                          >
                          > Sure, go to the link Brian provided which leads to the Burton Watson
                          > translation then go to the third paragraph where you will find this
                          > statement:
                          >
                          > <<If such persons at times come to one, then one may preach the Law
                          > for them, but one should expect nothing from it. Again one should
                          > not associate with monks, nuns, laymen or laywomen who seek to
                          > become voice-hearers, nor should one question or visit them. One
                          > should not stay with them in the same room, or in the place where
                          > one exercises, or in the lecture hall. One should not join them in
                          > their activities. If at times they come to one, one should preach
                          > the Law in accordance with what is appropriate, but should expect
                          > nothing from it. >>
                          >
                          >
                          > So if they approach you then preach the Dharma but do not do so
                          > to "get anything out of it" so to speak.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > Even so, although there are admirable teachings in this chapter,
                          > > Nichiren says "All the teachings other than the "one chapter and
                          > two
                          > > halves" are Hinayana in nature and erroneous. Not only do they
                          > fail to
                          > > lead to enlightenment, but also they lack the truth. Those who
                          > believe
                          > > in them are meager in virtue, heavy with defilement, ignorant,
                          > poor,
                          > > solitary, and like birds and beasts [that do not know their own
                          > > parents]." (The Object of Devotion...)
                          > > Note that the chapter also states "No one will trouble them or
                          > revile
                          > > them [when they preach the Law in the age to come]" Doesn't
                          > Nichiren
                          > > prefer "... how much worse will it be after his passing?"
                          >
                          > Again, chapter 14 is the chapter of shoju and I would therefore
                          > direct people to the last part of Kaimoku Sho (one of Nichiren's
                          > major writings) where he says to use shoju or shakubuku as
                          > appropriate and not to rely solely on one or the other.
                          >
                          > But in fact, one can do the shakubuku practice of Bodhisattva Never
                          > Despise in chapter 20 by declaring the truth without backing down,
                          > but at the same time refrain from putting down the beliefs of others
                          > in accord with chap. 14. SGI already does this in many cases, as it
                          > refrains from publicly criticizing Christianity or Islam. I am often
                          > a little more blunt in my evaluations of monotheism. I think each
                          > practitioner of the Lotus Sutra must decide what is compassionate
                          > and appropriate in light of their actual circumstances. In Denmark
                          > for instance, I think votaries of the Lotus Sutra should denounce
                          > superstitious and harmful practices like female circumcision by
                          > people moving into their country and who insist that this horrible
                          > practice is somehow a religious necessity. There is a case where the
                          > value of all beings (including women) taught in the Lotus Sutra
                          > should be upheld over and against a degrading and harmful
                          > superstition. But in the USA, a book like Charles Atkin's Modern
                          > Buddhist Healing can share the Odaimoku with people of all religions
                          > without necessarily having to discount Christian prayer or New Age
                          > practices, which would have detracted from the purpose of that book.
                          >
                          > But I have not yet really answered your question - more below:
                          >
                          >
                          > > I feel that my assertion that Nichiren discounts Chapter 14 is
                          > > supported by this, also from "The Object...":
                          > > "'At that time the Buddha said to the bodhisattvas and mahasattvas:
                          > > 'Leave off, good men! There is no need for you to protect and
                          > embrace
                          > > this sutra.' " This statement totally contradicts the Buddha's
                          > > exhortations in the preceding five chapters from the "Teacher of
                          > the
                          > > Law" [to the "Peaceful Practices"]."
                          > >
                          > > So I guess my point is that I think it's inappropriate for a
                          > teacher
                          > > of this Buddhism to point people to the Peaceful Practices chapter
                          > > without the guidelines to a selective reading of it which you have
                          > > provided above.
                          >
                          >
                          > One has to pay careful attention to the context and the relative
                          > evaluation of things. Chapter 14 and the rest are in fact Hinayana
                          > when compared to the "one chapter and two-halves" because unlike
                          > the "one chapter and two-halves" they do not explicitly teach the
                          > Unborn and Deathless nature of Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment and
                          > therefore our own. They seemingly set up requirements for the
                          > attainment of buddhahood which not all people can fulfill (at least
                          > at present in the age of Mappo). So to the extent that the other
                          > chapters and even other sutras lead to faith and joy in the one
                          > chapter and two halves they can share in its ultimate Mahayana
                          > orientation. They are the rivers flowing into the sea of the Honmon
                          > or Original Gate. But if they chapters or sutras or upheld over and
                          > against what they should lead to - the one chapter and two halves -
                          > then they are made to betray their own purpose and one is stuck with
                          > only their explicate meaning which only goes so far. On the other
                          > hand, when one truly has the spirit of Namu Myoho Renge Kyo, then
                          > the other chapters and sutras reveal their hidden virtues as partial
                          > aspects of the wonder and merit of the Wonderful Dharma (Myoho)
                          > which are all manifest in the life of the practitioner and should be
                          > appreciated as such.
                          >
                          > Now the provisional bodhisattvas do indeed uphold these other sutras
                          > and chapters until such time as the one chapter and two halves
                          > and/or the seven characters of Odaimoku can be revealed. The
                          > bodhisattvas of the earth, the original disciples of the Original
                          > Buddha, can then show these teachings in the new light of Namu Myoho
                          > Renge Kyo.
                          >
                          > For instance, we recite chapter 2 as part of our practice and esp.
                          > we recite the ten suchnesses three times in accordance with the
                          > unity of the three truths. All these are provisional Mahayana
                          > teachings. But we do so to set up the context for a fuller
                          > appreciation of the actuality of ichinen sanzen, and in turn the
                          > recitation of chapter 16 shows how the theoretical side of ichinen
                          > sanzen leads to our present actualization of it in our practice of
                          > Odaimoku. So chapter 2 sets up the theory and chapter 16 actualizes
                          > that which has been set up in terms of the Unborn and Deathless
                          > nature of the Buddha's enlightnment and how that impacts our own
                          > practice and realization of buddhahood here and now. The two parts -
                          > the Trace Gate and Original Gate - illuminate each other though the
                          > Original Gate is certainly held to be primary by all Nichiren
                          > Buddhists.
                          >
                          > The same can be said of the other chapters and sutras and the
                          > teachings of the provisional bodhisattvas. They derive their value
                          > from the core of the Lotus Sutra, but they also serve to lead to
                          > that core and explicate various aspects of the core and in turn the
                          > real underlying fullness of their meaning is illuminated by that
                          > core.
                          >
                          > But you are right - a good commentary is needed so that these other
                          > chapters and sutras are consistently interpreted in the light of the
                          > one chapter and two halves the eight chapters and Nichiren Shonin's
                          > teachings in general so that one does not mistakenly drift back into
                          > provisional perspectives.
                          >
                          > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                          > Ryuei
                          >
                          > *********************************************************************
                          I'm almost entirely in agreement. But I'd like to make an observation
                          that I hope is more than a quibble.

                          "You can teach them if they come to you." is not in the spirit of
                          reaching out to all people demonstrated by Never Disparaging. So I
                          think it's fair to say that when referring to the Peaceful Practices
                          chapter one should be clear that he is advocating propagation using
                          peaceful deeds,words, thoughts, and vows, and that the rules of
                          association do not apply to the Bodhisattvas of the Earth.

                          Are we clear? (big smile)

                          With respect
                          Steve
                        • ryuei2000
                          ... observation ... Practices ... In this case I think we are in full agreement. Since chapter 14 is a shoju chapter it is naturally not as pro-active as what
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, sokujoju
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > I'm almost entirely in agreement. But I'd like to make an
                            observation
                            > that I hope is more than a quibble.
                            >
                            > "You can teach them if they come to you." is not in the spirit of
                            > reaching out to all people demonstrated by Never Disparaging. So I
                            > think it's fair to say that when referring to the Peaceful
                            Practices
                            > chapter one should be clear that he is advocating propagation using
                            > peaceful deeds,words, thoughts, and vows, and that the rules of
                            > association do not apply to the Bodhisattvas of the Earth.
                            >
                            > Are we clear? (big smile)

                            In this case I think we are in full agreement. Since chapter 14 is a
                            shoju chapter it is naturally not as pro-active as what is called
                            for in a shakubuku chapter like chapter 13, chapter 20 or the
                            Nirvana Sutra. As Bodhisattvas of the Earth, we should not only make
                            ourselves available we should actually hold up the banner of
                            Odaimoku and beat the drum of Odaimoku (something I have done
                            literally in peace marches).

                            As for not approaching people, again, my reading of chapter 14 is
                            that as long as we see past lables and categories (the emptiness or
                            equality of all things) and do not approach people with ulterior
                            motives or the idea of gain, then we should approach all people with
                            a spirit of compassion and sharing which is the what I believe the
                            specific transmission to the Bodhisattvas of the Earth in chapter 21
                            is all about. As I write this, it occurs to me that this is how to
                            read chapter 14 in the light of chapter 21 (of the eight chapters).


                            Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                            Ryuei


                            *******************************************************************
                          • Robin Ray Beck
                            ... from? Who is saying these things? Is it from the LS? What chapter? ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SNCOMKBL! ...
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Holly"
                              <bholly72@h...> wrote:
                              > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"
                              > <mysterium777@y...> wrote:
                              > > Excuse my ignorance please. But where are these quotes below
                              from? Who is saying these things? Is it from the LS? What chapter?
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              > It's the Schwartenegger Sutra. It advises staying away from girlie
                              > men and legislators.
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              SNCOMKBL!
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                              > No, it is from the LS:
                              >
                              > http://www.sgi-
                              > usa.org/buddhism/library/Buddhism/LotusSutra/text/Chap14.htm
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Here is a tiny URL that will not cut off:

                              http://tinyurl.com/7y9ul
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              More Watson:

                              PDF version:
                              http://www.nmrk.com/sutra/

                              Amother, better PDF
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dharma_Study_Group/files/A020

                              BIONA:
                              http://www.buddhistinformation.com/chapter_14.htm

                              NS
                              http://tinyurl.com/46clp
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Fodian

                              http://www.fodian.net/English/index.htm

                              After linking, scroll down to;
                              The Wonderful Dharma Lotus Flower Sutra (Chapters 14-28) with the
                              Commentary of Tripitaka Master Hsuan Hua translated by the
                              Buddhist Text Translation Society (updated on June 19, 2004)
                              The Lotus Sutra translated by Burton Watson
                              The Lotus of the True Law translated by H. Kern (1884)

                              ===================================
                              Kern (note that in his version, it is 13)

                              http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/
                              http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/lot13.htm

                              http://reluctant-messenger.com/lotus_sutra.htm
                              http://reluctant-messenger.com/lotus_sutra_13.htm

                              http://lotus.nichirenshu.org/lotus/sutra/english/hokke-idx.htm
                              http://tinyurl.com/5f7y8
                              http://tinyurl.com/44zfr

                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Translated by Leon Hurvitz

                              http://www.mit.edu/~stclair/Lotus14.html
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Translated by The Buddhist Text Translation Society in USA

                              http://tinyurl.com/create.php
                            • Robin Ray Beck
                              ... Try this: http://tinyurl.com/5cuqr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SokaGakkaiInternational/message/37229
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Robin Ray Beck"
                                <rrobinrb@m...> wrote:

                                > Translated by The Buddhist Text Translation Society in USA
                                >
                                > http://tinyurl.com/create.php

                                Try this:

                                http://tinyurl.com/5cuqr

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SokaGakkaiInternational/message/37229
                              • Brown,Robert
                                London Borough of Lambeth: our disclaimer is at the end of this e-mail. ***********************************************************************************
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 3, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  London Borough of Lambeth: our disclaimer is at the end of this e-mail.
                                  ***********************************************************************************

                                  Mind you Brian

                                  Even depending on what part of Chapter 14, I couldn't follow that if it also
                                  includes those sections!

                                  cheers

                                  Robert


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Brian Holly [mailto:bholly72@...]
                                  Sent: 02 September 2004 18:22
                                  To: SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [SGI] To Ryuei


                                  Steve, you might ask yourself which guidance in chapter 14 Michael
                                  was referrring to. - Brian


                                  --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, sokujoju
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, ryuei2000
                                  > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > <major snip>
                                  > > I think the guidance in chapter 14 of the Lotus Sutra given by
                                  > > Shakyamuni Buddha is what we should model ourselves on.
                                  > >
                                  > > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                                  > > Ryuei
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  ******************************************************************
                                  > Ryuei, you may want to reconsider this.
                                  >
                                  > Regardless of the context, this statement is entirely outside of
                                  > Nichiren Buddhism as expounded by the founder. First, this
                                  chapter
                                  > is exclusionary. Are you saying you intend to practice like this:
                                  > "If he enters the house of another person, he should not engage in
                                  > talk with the young girls, unmarried women or widows. Nor should
                                  he
                                  > go near the five types of unmanly men or have any close dealings
                                  > with them"?
                                  > Or this:
                                  > "He should not delight in nurturing underage disciples,
                                  shramaneras
                                  > or children, and should not delight in sharing the same teacher
                                  with
                                  > them. He should constantly take pleasure in sitting in meditation,
                                  > being in quiet surroundings and learning to still his mind"?
                                  > Or this:
                                  > "Also he must not associate with
                                  > slaughterers or flesh-carvers,
                                  > those who hunt animals or catch fish,
                                  > or kill to do harm for profit.
                                  > Those who peddle meat for a living
                                  > or display women and sell their favors -
                                  > all persons such as this
                                  > one should never associate with.
                                  > Those engaged in hazardous sports,
                                  > wrestling, or other kinds of amusements,
                                  > women of lascivious nature -
                                  > never associate with any of these."?
                                  >
                                  > To whom are you willing to teach the Sutra?
                                  >
                                  > Even more importantly, Nichiren points out that the 14th chapter
                                  was
                                  > taught before the arrival of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. After
                                  > the people who heard this vowed to protect the Sutra in "the age
                                  > after the Buddha has entered extinction," Shakyamuni tells them
                                  > Never Mind - it's not your job anyway. Then the B of E. appear.
                                  > That's us, according to "The True Entity of all Phenomena." So
                                  the
                                  > next 8 chapters tell us how to practice, not the 14th. Nichiren
                                  > boils this down to chanting and teaching others, with the spirit
                                  > (read "attitude", not "ghost") of Never Disparaging.
                                  >
                                  > No need for me to belabor the point.
                                  >
                                  > Regards
                                  > Steve



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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Brian Holly
                                  ... wrote: Robin, You are invaluable!! - Brian ... the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 3, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Robin Ray Beck"
                                    <rrobinrb@m...> wrote:
                                    Robin,
                                    You are invaluable!! - Brian


                                    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    > Here is a tiny URL that will not cut off:
                                    >
                                    > http://tinyurl.com/7y9ul
                                    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    > More Watson:
                                    >
                                    > PDF version:
                                    > http://www.nmrk.com/sutra/
                                    >
                                    > Amother, better PDF
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dharma_Study_Group/files/A020
                                    >
                                    > BIONA:
                                    > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/chapter_14.htm
                                    >
                                    > NS
                                    > http://tinyurl.com/46clp
                                    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    > Fodian
                                    >
                                    > http://www.fodian.net/English/index.htm
                                    >
                                    > After linking, scroll down to;
                                    > The Wonderful Dharma Lotus Flower Sutra (Chapters 14-28) with
                                    the
                                    > Commentary of Tripitaka Master Hsuan Hua translated by the
                                    > Buddhist Text Translation Society (updated on June 19, 2004)
                                    > The Lotus Sutra translated by Burton Watson
                                    > The Lotus of the True Law translated by H. Kern (1884)
                                    >
                                    > ===================================
                                    > Kern (note that in his version, it is 13)
                                    >
                                    > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/
                                    > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/lot13.htm
                                    >
                                    > http://reluctant-messenger.com/lotus_sutra.htm
                                    > http://reluctant-messenger.com/lotus_sutra_13.htm
                                    >
                                    > http://lotus.nichirenshu.org/lotus/sutra/english/hokke-idx.htm
                                    > http://tinyurl.com/5f7y8
                                    > http://tinyurl.com/44zfr
                                    >
                                    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    > Translated by Leon Hurvitz
                                    >
                                    > http://www.mit.edu/~stclair/Lotus14.html
                                    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    > Translated by The Buddhist Text Translation Society in USA
                                    >
                                    > http://tinyurl.com/create.php
                                  • Brian Holly
                                    ... mail. ... ********************************************************************* ... if it also ... Robert, Please remember that Nichiren says that every
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 3, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Brown,Robert"
                                      <rbrown@l...> wrote:
                                      > London Borough of Lambeth: our disclaimer is at the end of this e-
                                      mail.
                                      >
                                      *********************************************************************
                                      **************
                                      >
                                      > Mind you Brian
                                      >
                                      > Even depending on what part of Chapter 14, I couldn't follow that
                                      if it also
                                      > includes those sections!
                                      >
                                      > cheers
                                      >
                                      > Robert
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Robert,
                                      Please remember that Nichiren says that every character of the LS
                                      is a golden Buddha. - Brian
                                    • ryuei2000
                                      ... mail. ... ********************************************************************* ... if it also ... The exclusionary bit is a bit daunting, but I try to
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 3, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com, "Brown,Robert"
                                        <rbrown@l...> wrote:
                                        > London Borough of Lambeth: our disclaimer is at the end of this e-
                                        mail.
                                        >
                                        *********************************************************************
                                        **************
                                        >
                                        > Mind you Brian
                                        >
                                        > Even depending on what part of Chapter 14, I couldn't follow that
                                        if it also
                                        > includes those sections!
                                        >
                                        > cheers
                                        >
                                        > Robert
                                        >


                                        The exclusionary bit is a bit daunting, but I try to keep this in
                                        mind:

                                        This passage of who not to approach is really addressed to monks
                                        who are following the precepts of the Vinaya (this passage makes
                                        much more sense if one is familiar with the Vinaya and the problems
                                        which actually arose in the Sahgha when monks did these things
                                        thereby causing lay followers to complain directly to the Buddha).
                                        Since I am not a Theravadin monk, this passage does not literally
                                        apply to me - so instead I look to the underlying principles
                                        of "don't take advantage of others and don't create a scandal for
                                        the Sangha."

                                        Afterall, if I took this passage as literally applying to me (which
                                        I don't think it does) then I would have disqualified myself from
                                        being a votary of the Lotus Sutra by watching Predator the other
                                        night. Predator, afterall, features Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jesse
                                        Ventura and I think other pro-wrestlers - actors, bodybuilders,
                                        wrestlers and in fact two future governors all in one film!

                                        Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                                        Ryuei



                                        *********************************************************************
                                        *
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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