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Re: Buddhas or Bodhisattvas?

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  • kathyruby
    ... life ... The Lotus Sutra states: At all times I think to myself: How can I cause living beings to gain entry into the unsurpassed way and quickly acquire
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 1, 2002
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      --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "sgipeter" <sgipeter@y...> wrote:
      > And Kosen Rufu is all well and good but that is NOT the goal of
      life
      > for many and shouldn't have to be for SGI members.

      The Lotus Sutra states:
      "At all times I think to myself:
      How can I cause living beings
      to gain entry into the unsurpassed way
      and quickly acquire the body of a Buddha?"

      This is the great desire of a Buddha. This is the act that brings us
      joy. I think this is our only worthy goal.

      The Daishonin wrote:
      "How many are the places where I died in past existences for the sake
      of my family, lands and kin! I have given up my life on mountains,
      seas and rivers, on the seashore and by the roadside, but never once
      did I die for the Lotus Sutra or suffer persecution for the daimoku.
      Hence none of the ends I met enabled me to reach enlightenment.
      Because I did not attain Buddhahood, the seas and rivers where I died
      are not the Buddha's land."

      We should not begrudge our lives for the sake of the Law.

      Kathy
    • sgipeter
      Causing living beings to achieve the unsurpassed way is NOT the furthing of one and only one buddhist sect. Every religion has parts of it that are
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 1, 2002
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        "Causing living beings to achieve the unsurpassed way" is NOT the
        furthing of one and only one buddhist sect. Every religion has parts
        of it that are surpassable.

        "We should not begrudge our lives for the sake of the Law."

        Our lives are the Law. And "The Law" is not what one specific group
        of people say it is. And you cannot remove the ego from life. Every
        person becomes attatched to THEIR understanding and can start to
        think THEY know what's best for OTHERS on the basis of what they
        THINK works for THEM. No matter what a person says, it comes down to
        a matter of choice and interpretation. And your choices and your
        interpretations may not work for ME.

        P.


        --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "kathyruby" <kathyruby@y...>
        wrote:
        > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "sgipeter" <sgipeter@y...>
        wrote:
        > > And Kosen Rufu is all well and good but that is NOT the goal of
        > life
        > > for many and shouldn't have to be for SGI members.
        >
        > The Lotus Sutra states:
        > "At all times I think to myself:
        > How can I cause living beings
        > to gain entry into the unsurpassed way
        > and quickly acquire the body of a Buddha?"
        >
        > This is the great desire of a Buddha. This is the act that brings
        us
        > joy. I think this is our only worthy goal.
        >
        > The Daishonin wrote:
        > "How many are the places where I died in past existences for the
        sake
        > of my family, lands and kin! I have given up my life on mountains,
        > seas and rivers, on the seashore and by the roadside, but never
        once
        > did I die for the Lotus Sutra or suffer persecution for the
        daimoku.
        > Hence none of the ends I met enabled me to reach enlightenment.
        > Because I did not attain Buddhahood, the seas and rivers where I
        died
        > are not the Buddha's land."
        >
        > We should not begrudge our lives for the sake of the Law.
        >
        > Kathy
      • chris_holte
        The theory of Ichinen Sanzen explains that both the paths of the Buddha and that of Bodhisattva are interchangeable. Buddha is reward for enlightened
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 1, 2002
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          The theory of Ichinen Sanzen explains that both the paths of the
          Buddha and that of Bodhisattva are interchangeable. "Buddha"
          is "reward" for enlightened living. Bodhisattva is one of the paths
          for manifesting that enlightenment. In one sense the "reward" is
          Buddhahood, but in another sense the reward is being able to continue
          to manifest enlightenment. It is a great honor to live as a
          Bodhisattva of the Earth. It is the reward of that endeaver that the
          world become a pure place where all beings are enlightened and happy.
          But enlightenment doesn't rely on that absolute effect becoming
          completely real so much as that one is really really making causes
          towards that end. Nichiren said the path to Buddhahood lay in being
          a "votary of the Lotus Sutra." A Votary of the Lotus Sutra is nothing
          more than a Bodhisattva of the Earth. Our apparent appearance is that
          of a common mortal, but when we act as such our true aspect is that
          of those Bodhissattvas, who have "already acquired" the body of a
          Buddha. These are all metaphors for the enlightenment we can achieve
          as common mortals (buddhahood in our present form) and the joy we can
          receive as a result of trying.

          Where people get mistaken is in either thinking that they are
          already "Buddhas" no matter what they do or say, or when they go to
          the other extreme and think that Buddhahood is reserved for saints
          and sages. Buddhahood is an asymptotic condition while we are alive.

          Chris

          --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "sgipeter" <sgipeter@y...> wrote:
          > "Causing living beings to achieve the unsurpassed way" is NOT the
          > furthing of one and only one buddhist sect. Every religion has
          parts
          > of it that are surpassable.
          >
          > "We should not begrudge our lives for the sake of the Law."
          >
          > Our lives are the Law. And "The Law" is not what one specific group
          > of people say it is. And you cannot remove the ego from life. Every
          > person becomes attatched to THEIR understanding and can start to
          > think THEY know what's best for OTHERS on the basis of what they
          > THINK works for THEM. No matter what a person says, it comes down
          to
          > a matter of choice and interpretation. And your choices and your
          > interpretations may not work for ME.
          >
          > P.
          >
          >
          > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "kathyruby" <kathyruby@y...>
          > wrote:
          > > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "sgipeter" <sgipeter@y...>
          > wrote:
          > > > And Kosen Rufu is all well and good but that is NOT the goal of
          > > life
          > > > for many and shouldn't have to be for SGI members.
          > >
          > > The Lotus Sutra states:
          > > "At all times I think to myself:
          > > How can I cause living beings
          > > to gain entry into the unsurpassed way
          > > and quickly acquire the body of a Buddha?"
          > >
          > > This is the great desire of a Buddha. This is the act that brings
          > us
          > > joy. I think this is our only worthy goal.
          > >
          > > The Daishonin wrote:
          > > "How many are the places where I died in past existences for the
          > sake
          > > of my family, lands and kin! I have given up my life on
          mountains,
          > > seas and rivers, on the seashore and by the roadside, but never
          > once
          > > did I die for the Lotus Sutra or suffer persecution for the
          > daimoku.
          > > Hence none of the ends I met enabled me to reach enlightenment.
          > > Because I did not attain Buddhahood, the seas and rivers where I
          > died
          > > are not the Buddha's land."
          > >
          > > We should not begrudge our lives for the sake of the Law.
          > >
          > > Kathy
        • sgipeter
          Buddhahood is an asymptotic condition while we are alive. Put THAT on your altar and chant to it!
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 1, 2002
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            "Buddhahood is an asymptotic condition while we are alive."

            Put THAT on your altar and chant to it!
          • chris_holte
            ... Another way to look at it is that enlightenment is the light, Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are lightbulbs, generators, wires, etceteras. Another way to look at
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 2, 2002
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              --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "sgipeter" <sgipeter@y...> wrote:
              > "Buddhahood is an asymptotic condition while we are alive."
              >
              > Put THAT on your altar and chant to it!
              Another way to look at it is that enlightenment is the light, Buddhas
              and Bodhisattvas are lightbulbs, generators, wires, etceteras.

              Another way to look at it is that Buddha and Bodhisattva are like
              Lotus Flower and seeds.

              Chris
            • bholly72
              Oh yeah? Well, I think you re trying to immanantize the eschaton. So there. - Brian ... Buddhas
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 2, 2002
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                Oh yeah? Well, I think you're trying to immanantize the eschaton. So
                there. - Brian

                --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "chris_holte" <chris_holte@y...>
                wrote:
                > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "sgipeter" <sgipeter@y...>
                wrote:
                > > "Buddhahood is an asymptotic condition while we are alive."
                > >
                > > Put THAT on your altar and chant to it!
                > Another way to look at it is that enlightenment is the light,
                Buddhas
                > and Bodhisattvas are lightbulbs, generators, wires, etceteras.
                >
                > Another way to look at it is that Buddha and Bodhisattva are like
                > Lotus Flower and seeds.
                >
                > Chris
              • ryuei2000
                ... LOL! That s the 23rd funniest thing I ve heard this year. Namu Myoho Renge Kyo, Ryuei
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 2, 2002
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                  --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "bholly72" <bholly72@h...> wrote:
                  > Oh yeah? Well, I think you're trying to immanantize the eschaton. So
                  > there. - Brian

                  LOL! That's the 23rd funniest thing I've heard this year.

                  Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                  Ryuei



                  2323232323223232323232323232323232323232323232323232323232323232323232
                • Brian P. Mann
                  ... From: ryuei2000 To: Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 1:58 PM Subject: [SGI] Re: Buddhas
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 2, 2002
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "ryuei2000" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                    To: <SokaGakkaiInternational@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 1:58 PM
                    Subject: [SGI] Re: Buddhas or Bodhisattvas?


                    > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "bholly72" <bholly72@h...> wrote:
                    > > Oh yeah? Well, I think you're trying to immanantize the eschaton. So
                    > > there. - Brian
                    >
                    > LOL! That's the 23rd funniest thing I've heard this year.
                    >
                    > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                    > Ryuei

                    and if you add the numbers in 23rd, you get 5...hmmmm

                    Brian
                    The Modem Pool
                    Jackson:517-789-5689
                    Lansing: 517-393-4337
                    Other: 888-377-5689
                  • chris_holte
                    I need a better dictionary. ... So ...
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jul 2, 2002
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                      I need a better dictionary.

                      --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "bholly72" <bholly72@h...> wrote:
                      > Oh yeah? Well, I think you're trying to immanantize the eschaton.
                      So
                      > there. - Brian
                      >
                      > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "chris_holte"
                      <chris_holte@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "sgipeter" <sgipeter@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > "Buddhahood is an asymptotic condition while we are alive."
                      > > >
                      > > > Put THAT on your altar and chant to it!
                      > > Another way to look at it is that enlightenment is the light,
                      > Buddhas
                      > > and Bodhisattvas are lightbulbs, generators, wires, etceteras.
                      > >
                      > > Another way to look at it is that Buddha and Bodhisattva are like
                      > > Lotus Flower and seeds.
                      > >
                      > > Chris
                    • Kathy Ruby
                      What do you mean by asymptotic ? My dictionary says it has to do with mathematics: a straight line that approaches, but doesn t meet a curve. Are you saying
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 2, 2002
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                        What do you mean by "asymptotic"? My dictionary says it has to do with
                        mathematics: a straight line that approaches, but doesn't meet a curve.

                        Are you saying that we can come close to but never attain Buddhahood
                        while we are alive? A rather hopeless position ...

                        Or do you mean "asymptomatic"? Meaning that we do attain Buddhahood but
                        don't have the symptoms [effects] of it?

                        Kathy


                        --- sgipeter <sgipeter@...> wrote:
                        > "Buddhahood is an asymptotic condition while we are alive."
                        >
                        > Put THAT on your altar and chant to it!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • chris_holte
                        ... According to the Sutras, there is one Buddha to a Buddhaland. Therefore, attaining enlightenment as a common mortal is not a matter of perfection -- of
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jul 3, 2002
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                          --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > What do you mean by "asymptotic"? My dictionary says it has to
                          > do with mathematics: a straight line that approaches, but doesn't
                          > meet a curve.

                          According to the Sutras, there is one Buddha to a Buddhaland.
                          Therefore, attaining enlightenment as a common mortal is not a matter
                          of perfection -- of being a "Buddha" in this lifetime. Rather we
                          purify our lives as they are. We live as Bodhisattvas of the Earth.
                          Whose outward appearance is as a common mortal, but whom are already
                          perfected at some level within. Thus the "strait line that approaches
                          but doesn't meet a curve." It's just an analogy, a metaphor. Another
                          way to look at it, is that we are on a road that we made a vow to
                          help others reach the end of. Therefore we all have to reach the end
                          or we promised we'd keep trying. Thus we are here because we want to
                          be here.

                          >
                          > Are you saying that we can come close to but never attain Buddhahood
                          > while we are alive? A rather hopeless position ...

                          That's not hopeless, that's the opposite of hopelessness. The point
                          is that we are neither perfect, nor do we want to be perfect, but we
                          are perfectable and we want to manifest enlightenment. We
                          are "vessels" "Votaries" of enlightenment. We don't have to wait
                          until we are perfect to teach others, to manifest enlightenment, to
                          enjoy life. We don't have to practice endless austerities either. But
                          we do have to keep our vow to practice with the aim of saving others
                          as well as reaching enlightenment ourselves. We need to keep
                          chanting. Chant until the last moment and at the last moment we'll
                          know it was all worth while. Chant with the knowledge that now might
                          be our last moment, and we chant now with the knowledge that it is
                          all worth while right now. What a benefit that is! Chant with the joy
                          of first hearing and taking faith in this Buddhism and what a joy
                          that is! Joy and expectation, attaining Buddhahood as a common
                          mortal. Sharing this joy and expectation. Where is the hopelessness
                          in that? The only people who claim to already be Buddhas, are people
                          who are pretending anyway. If they aren't pretending then they don't
                          need to make any such claims.

                          Chris
                        • ryuei2000
                          ... matter ... already ... approaches ... It is interesting to me that this analogy is being used. I first heard it from Fr. Schepers who was my college
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jul 3, 2002
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                            --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "chris_holte" <chris_holte@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > What do you mean by "asymptotic"? My dictionary says it has to
                            > > do with mathematics: a straight line that approaches, but doesn't
                            > > meet a curve.
                            >
                            > According to the Sutras, there is one Buddha to a Buddhaland.
                            > Therefore, attaining enlightenment as a common mortal is not a
                            matter
                            > of perfection -- of being a "Buddha" in this lifetime. Rather we
                            > purify our lives as they are. We live as Bodhisattvas of the Earth.
                            > Whose outward appearance is as a common mortal, but whom are
                            already
                            > perfected at some level within. Thus the "strait line that
                            approaches
                            > but doesn't meet a curve." It's just an analogy, a metaphor.


                            It is interesting to me that this analogy is being used. I first heard
                            it from Fr. Schepers who was my college theology teacher. He told his
                            class that Christianity is an asymptotic journey to divinity. I think
                            he liked the infinite perfectibility and open-endedness of this
                            analogy.

                            I generally agree with your comments on this Chris. I think the 16th
                            chapter itself can be read in such a way that even Shakyamuni Buddha's
                            buddhahood is something dynamic and open-ended and not just a static
                            steady state attainment.

                            I also think of it this way - by taking faith and rejoicing in the
                            Dharma we are opening our lives to that which makes us buddhas - but
                            what is actually needed in this world is that we take on the role of
                            the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. So by virtue of the Wonderful Dharma we
                            are qualified to be buddhas, but in accordance with compassion and the
                            all-embracing nature of buddhahood we manifest that in terms of the
                            other nine worlds and especially through bodhisattva activity based
                            upon budhahood itself. If a world system should appear in need of a
                            buddha, or a pure land needed to be manifested, then we could do that
                            too - but that is big picture stuff. For now there are the concrete
                            needs of daily life and the people around us who need the seed of
                            Odaimoku planted in their lives - a mission for the Bodhisattvas of
                            the Earth.

                            Getting back to the analogy, if the straight line is buddhahood, then
                            it is within our lives already as one of the ten worlds, and our daily
                            conscious mind, thoughts, feelings, words, and actions are constantly
                            coming closer and closer to embodying it - and the Odaimoku is the
                            connection between the asymptotic line and the line of buddhahood. Of
                            course, this is just my opinion at the moment - and no analogy is
                            perfect. The proof is in our actual faith and practice and the way in
                            which it shines or illuminates us throughout the day when we are not
                            specifically chanting Odaimoku.


                            Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                            Ryuei



                            fdsjfhskdhfakdshfaksdhfkhadskfjhsadkhfksdhfkjasdhkfhjkfasdhfkskjdfhdsa
                            kfhk
                          • rudy_baga
                            ... that ... I don t understand what you mean by a pure land --something other than the here and now ? And what do you mean For now ? How does this jibe
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jul 3, 2002
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                              --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., ryuei2000 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              >..."If a world system should appear in need of a
                              >buddha, or a pure land needed to be manifested, then we could do
                              that
                              >too - but that is big picture stuff. For now there are the concrete
                              >needs of daily life and the people around us who need the seed of
                              >Odaimoku planted in their lives - a mission for the Bodhisattvas of
                              >the Earth."


                              I don't understand what you mean by a "pure land" --something other
                              than the "here and now"? And what do you mean "For now"? How does
                              this jibe with:

                              ..."It further states that if the minds of the people are impure,
                              their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their
                              land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The
                              difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds."
                              ..."It is the same with a Buddha and a common mortal. While deluded,
                              one is called a common mortal, but once enlightened, he is called a
                              Buddha."
                              (from "On Attaining Buddhahood")





                              --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., ryuei2000 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., "chris_holte"
                              <chris_holte@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > What do you mean by "asymptotic"? My dictionary says it has to
                              > > > do with mathematics: a straight line that approaches, but
                              doesn't
                              > > > meet a curve.
                              > >
                              > > According to the Sutras, there is one Buddha to a Buddhaland.
                              > > Therefore, attaining enlightenment as a common mortal is not a
                              > matter
                              > > of perfection -- of being a "Buddha" in this lifetime. Rather we
                              > > purify our lives as they are. We live as Bodhisattvas of the
                              Earth.
                              > > Whose outward appearance is as a common mortal, but whom are
                              > already
                              > > perfected at some level within. Thus the "strait line that
                              > approaches
                              > > but doesn't meet a curve." It's just an analogy, a metaphor.
                              >
                              >
                              > It is interesting to me that this analogy is being used. I first
                              heard
                              > it from Fr. Schepers who was my college theology teacher. He told
                              his
                              > class that Christianity is an asymptotic journey to divinity. I
                              think
                              > he liked the infinite perfectibility and open-endedness of this
                              > analogy.
                              >
                              > I generally agree with your comments on this Chris. I think the
                              16th
                              > chapter itself can be read in such a way that even Shakyamuni
                              Buddha's
                              > buddhahood is something dynamic and open-ended and not just a
                              static
                              > steady state attainment.
                              >
                              > I also think of it this way - by taking faith and rejoicing in the
                              > Dharma we are opening our lives to that which makes us buddhas -
                              but
                              > what is actually needed in this world is that we take on the role
                              of
                              > the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. So by virtue of the Wonderful Dharma
                              we
                              > are qualified to be buddhas, but in accordance with compassion and
                              the
                              > all-embracing nature of buddhahood we manifest that in terms of the
                              > other nine worlds and especially through bodhisattva activity based
                              > upon budhahood itself. If a world system should appear in need of a
                              > buddha, or a pure land needed to be manifested, then we could do
                              that
                              > too - but that is big picture stuff. For now there are the concrete
                              > needs of daily life and the people around us who need the seed of
                              > Odaimoku planted in their lives - a mission for the Bodhisattvas of
                              > the Earth.
                              >
                              > Getting back to the analogy, if the straight line is buddhahood,
                              then
                              > it is within our lives already as one of the ten worlds, and our
                              daily
                              > conscious mind, thoughts, feelings, words, and actions are
                              constantly
                              > coming closer and closer to embodying it - and the Odaimoku is the
                              > connection between the asymptotic line and the line of buddhahood.
                              Of
                              > course, this is just my opinion at the moment - and no analogy is
                              > perfect. The proof is in our actual faith and practice and the way
                              in
                              > which it shines or illuminates us throughout the day when we are
                              not
                              > specifically chanting Odaimoku.
                              >
                              >
                              > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                              > Ryuei
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              fdsjfhskdhfakdshfaksdhfkhadskfjhsadkhfksdhfkjasdhkfhjkfasdhfkskjdfhdsa
                              > kfhk
                            • Kathy Ruby
                              ... Holy moly! Are you saying now that only one person on Earth can attain Enlightenment?? I never saw that in the Sutra! ... I m sorry, Chris. I try, I really
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jul 3, 2002
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                                --- chris_holte <chris_holte@...> wrote:
                                > According to the Sutras, there is one Buddha to a Buddhaland.

                                Holy moly! Are you saying now that only one person on Earth can attain
                                Enlightenment?? I never saw that in the Sutra!

                                > Therefore, attaining enlightenment as a common mortal is not a matter
                                > of perfection -- of being a "Buddha" in this lifetime. Rather we
                                > purify our lives as they are. We live as Bodhisattvas of the Earth.
                                > Whose outward appearance is as a common mortal, but whom are already
                                > perfected at some level within. Thus the "strait line that approaches
                                > but doesn't meet a curve." It's just an analogy, a metaphor. Another
                                > way to look at it, is that we are on a road that we made a vow to
                                > help others reach the end of. Therefore we all have to reach the end
                                > or we promised we'd keep trying. Thus we are here because we want to
                                > be here.

                                I'm sorry, Chris. I try, I really do, but I don't understand a thing
                                you're saying.

                                Are you saying Buddhahood has something to do with perfection?

                                > That's not hopeless, that's the opposite of hopelessness. The point
                                > is that we are neither perfect, nor do we want to be perfect, but we
                                > are perfectable and we want to manifest enlightenment. We
                                > are "vessels" "Votaries" of enlightenment. We don't have to wait
                                > until we are perfect to teach others, to manifest enlightenment, to
                                > enjoy life. We don't have to practice endless austerities either. But
                                > we do have to keep our vow to practice with the aim of saving others
                                > as well as reaching enlightenment ourselves. We need to keep
                                > chanting. Chant until the last moment and at the last moment we'll
                                > know it was all worth while. Chant with the knowledge that now might
                                > be our last moment, and we chant now with the knowledge that it is
                                > all worth while right now. What a benefit that is! Chant with the joy
                                > of first hearing and taking faith in this Buddhism and what a joy
                                > that is! Joy and expectation, attaining Buddhahood as a common
                                > mortal. Sharing this joy and expectation. Where is the hopelessness
                                > in that? The only people who claim to already be Buddhas, are people
                                > who are pretending anyway. If they aren't pretending then they don't
                                > need to make any such claims.

                                Ummmm . . . Are you saying again that no one can attain enlightenment
                                in this lifetime? Or that enlightenment was never our goal? Or that
                                being happy should be enough?

                                I do practice sincerely and joyfully. I chant daimoku with my district;
                                I visit people, invite friends to meetings, etc. I have no complaints.
                                But I do expect enlightenment. Is that wrong? Inappropriate? Arrogant?
                                I am following the Daishonin's example, I believe.

                                Kathy



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                              • ryuei2000
                                ... I should have said, if a provisional pure land needs to be manifested. In fact, I have two drums that I sometimes use when chanting Odaimoku (not at home
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jul 4, 2002
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                                  --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., rudy_baga <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                                  > I don't understand what you mean by a "pure land" --something other
                                  > than the "here and now"?

                                  I should have said, if a provisional pure land needs to be manifested.
                                  In fact, I have two drums that I sometimes use when chanting Odaimoku
                                  (not at home though of course) and on both is written the phrase "The
                                  World of Birth and Death is itself the Pure Land of Tranquil Light."
                                  However, the here and now also embraces all possible worlds and pure
                                  lands, and this is just one lifetime manifesting the buddhahood and
                                  bodhisattva actitivy. So the issue is not about losing sight of the
                                  here and now for the there and then but rather that we should see
                                  enlightenment as dynamic and open-ended and all embracing of countless
                                  worlds and lifetimes of enlightened activity.

                                  Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                                  Ryuei

                                  dsfjdshfkjdshkfhdkfhjdsakfhkdsafhkdshfkdshfksdajhfkadshkfakhds
                                • ryuei2000
                                  ... attain ... It is very clearly stated in the Nikayas/Agamas and carries through into the Mahayana even into the Lotus Sutra. That is the reason why the
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 4, 2002
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                                    --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > --- chris_holte <chris_holte@y...> wrote:
                                    > > According to the Sutras, there is one Buddha to a Buddhaland.
                                    >
                                    > Holy moly! Are you saying now that only one person on Earth can
                                    attain
                                    > Enlightenment?? I never saw that in the Sutra!
                                    >

                                    It is very clearly stated in the Nikayas/Agamas and carries through
                                    into the Mahayana even into the Lotus Sutra. That is the reason why
                                    the Dragon Girl had to change into a man and go to the Spotless World
                                    in the South. This was the Lotus Sutra's way of both upholding and
                                    subverting the standard assumptions inherited from the Nikayas that
                                    only a man could be a buddha and that only one buddha could arise in a
                                    world per dispensation. Or I should say only one active buddha. When
                                    Shakyamuni Buddha and Many Treasures Tathagata are together there are
                                    two buddhas, but technically Many Treasures is a relic-buddha in a
                                    stupa and not an active teaching Buddha. So again, the Lotus Sutra
                                    uphold and subverts a standard assumption of Mahayana and Hinayana
                                    Buddhism.

                                    Chih-i and Miao-lo's explanations took this even further I think. I
                                    believe that they taught that the Dragon Girl was a Buddha just as she
                                    was (a girl and in the same world as Shakyamuni Buddha) but that she
                                    manifested in the standard way only to make the situation clear to
                                    Shariputra and Bodhisattva Accumulated Wisdom. I will have to search
                                    for an authenticated source on this though.



                                    > Are you saying Buddhahood has something to do with perfection?

                                    Buddhahood certainly manifests the six (or ten) perfections and a
                                    Buddha is also supposed to have the 10 powers of the Buddha and many
                                    other unique characteristics. I have written an article about this at
                                    Ryuei.net called "What is the Nature of the Buddha?" in order to
                                    clarify what the sutras actually say buddhahood is all about.

                                    Note that according to chapter 21 the Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha has
                                    ceded all these merits and powers to us - the Bodhisattvas of the
                                    Earth. So the question we must ask ourselves is this - if we are truly
                                    upholding the Lotus Sutra as the Buddha taught, then why aren't we
                                    manifesting all these powers? (Note - this is a trick question on many
                                    levels and I am hoping that someone here will take up this challenge).


                                    > Ummmm . . . Are you saying again that no one can attain
                                    enlightenment
                                    > in this lifetime? Or that enlightenment was never our goal? Or that
                                    > being happy should be enough?

                                    I don't think Chris is saying that. We manifest buddhahood whenever we
                                    chant Odaimoku in the presence of the Gohonzon. Then we try to carry
                                    that over into the rest of the nine worlds of our daily life. Being
                                    happy in the sense of joy in the Dharma should be enough, because that
                                    is what enlightenment is. The gosho Happiness in this World is very
                                    helpful in this regard I think.

                                    > I do practice sincerely and joyfully. I chant daimoku with my
                                    district;
                                    > I visit people, invite friends to meetings, etc. I have no
                                    complaints.
                                    > But I do expect enlightenment. Is that wrong? Inappropriate?
                                    Arrogant?
                                    > I am following the Daishonin's example, I believe.
                                    >

                                    You expect enlightenment. You are not saying that you are enlightened.
                                    That is the crucial distinction. Don't you think that your practice is
                                    dynamic and open-ended? Do you think that your practice is going to
                                    stagnate and not go any further, or will it ceaselessly unfold into
                                    greater and greater degrees of realization, joy, and compassion? I
                                    think this is what Chris is trying to get at.

                                    Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                                    Ryuei



                                    fjsdfkdsjfhkdsafhksdjhfksdakjfj
                                  • sgipeter
                                    Well, I know this has been debated for millenia but in a very real sence I have to ask What is enlightenment in this life? Do you honestly think it s a state
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jul 4, 2002
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                                      Well, I know this has been debated for millenia but in a very real
                                      sence I have to ask "What is enlightenment in this life?"

                                      Do you honestly think it's a state of pure buddhaood where you're on
                                      some kind of "Buddha Autopilot"? Where everything you do is a
                                      manifestation of Buddhahood? Where there is no tempation or pleaseure
                                      gooten from the "lower ten worlds"? Where a person CANNOT be deluded
                                      about themselves, or even mistaken about tthe route method people
                                      should use to achieve their goals? Personally I don't. I think that's
                                      a belief that leads people to laziness and the blind following of
                                      peole who they think have achieved this "Autopilot" state. (

                                      Or is it the state of having a deep access to one's one life force
                                      and a connection with others? Seeing things clearly, not thru rose-
                                      colored (or poo-poo colored) glasses? Having room for improvement?

                                      P.



                                      --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., ryuei2000 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                      > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > --- chris_holte <chris_holte@y...> wrote:
                                      > > > According to the Sutras, there is one Buddha to a Buddhaland.
                                      > >
                                      > > Holy moly! Are you saying now that only one person on Earth can
                                      > attain
                                      > > Enlightenment?? I never saw that in the Sutra!
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > It is very clearly stated in the Nikayas/Agamas and carries through
                                      > into the Mahayana even into the Lotus Sutra. That is the reason why
                                      > the Dragon Girl had to change into a man and go to the Spotless
                                      World
                                      > in the South. This was the Lotus Sutra's way of both upholding and
                                      > subverting the standard assumptions inherited from the Nikayas that
                                      > only a man could be a buddha and that only one buddha could arise
                                      in a
                                      > world per dispensation. Or I should say only one active buddha.
                                      When
                                      > Shakyamuni Buddha and Many Treasures Tathagata are together there
                                      are
                                      > two buddhas, but technically Many Treasures is a relic-buddha in a
                                      > stupa and not an active teaching Buddha. So again, the Lotus Sutra
                                      > uphold and subverts a standard assumption of Mahayana and Hinayana
                                      > Buddhism.
                                      >
                                      > Chih-i and Miao-lo's explanations took this even further I think. I
                                      > believe that they taught that the Dragon Girl was a Buddha just as
                                      she
                                      > was (a girl and in the same world as Shakyamuni Buddha) but that
                                      she
                                      > manifested in the standard way only to make the situation clear to
                                      > Shariputra and Bodhisattva Accumulated Wisdom. I will have to
                                      search
                                      > for an authenticated source on this though.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Are you saying Buddhahood has something to do with perfection?
                                      >
                                      > Buddhahood certainly manifests the six (or ten) perfections and a
                                      > Buddha is also supposed to have the 10 powers of the Buddha and
                                      many
                                      > other unique characteristics. I have written an article about this
                                      at
                                      > Ryuei.net called "What is the Nature of the Buddha?" in order to
                                      > clarify what the sutras actually say buddhahood is all about.
                                      >
                                      > Note that according to chapter 21 the Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha has
                                      > ceded all these merits and powers to us - the Bodhisattvas of the
                                      > Earth. So the question we must ask ourselves is this - if we are
                                      truly
                                      > upholding the Lotus Sutra as the Buddha taught, then why aren't we
                                      > manifesting all these powers? (Note - this is a trick question on
                                      many
                                      > levels and I am hoping that someone here will take up this
                                      challenge).
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Ummmm . . . Are you saying again that no one can attain
                                      > enlightenment
                                      > > in this lifetime? Or that enlightenment was never our goal? Or
                                      that
                                      > > being happy should be enough?
                                      >
                                      > I don't think Chris is saying that. We manifest buddhahood whenever
                                      we
                                      > chant Odaimoku in the presence of the Gohonzon. Then we try to
                                      carry
                                      > that over into the rest of the nine worlds of our daily life. Being
                                      > happy in the sense of joy in the Dharma should be enough, because
                                      that
                                      > is what enlightenment is. The gosho Happiness in this World is very
                                      > helpful in this regard I think.
                                      >
                                      > > I do practice sincerely and joyfully. I chant daimoku with my
                                      > district;
                                      > > I visit people, invite friends to meetings, etc. I have no
                                      > complaints.
                                      > > But I do expect enlightenment. Is that wrong? Inappropriate?
                                      > Arrogant?
                                      > > I am following the Daishonin's example, I believe.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > You expect enlightenment. You are not saying that you are
                                      enlightened.
                                      > That is the crucial distinction. Don't you think that your practice
                                      is
                                      > dynamic and open-ended? Do you think that your practice is going to
                                      > stagnate and not go any further, or will it ceaselessly unfold into
                                      > greater and greater degrees of realization, joy, and compassion? I
                                      > think this is what Chris is trying to get at.
                                      >
                                      > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                                      > Ryuei
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > fjsdfkdsjfhkdsafhksdjhfksdakjfj
                                    • Kathy Ruby
                                      So, according to Chris Holte and Nichiren Shu, there can only be one Buddha per world! Pardon me, you all, but I think I ll stick with SGI. It is abhorrent to
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jul 4, 2002
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                                        So, according to Chris Holte and Nichiren Shu, there can only be one
                                        Buddha per world! Pardon me, you all, but I think I'll stick with SGI.
                                        It is abhorrent to me that such distinctions should be made! Surely we
                                        all have the potential. I see evidence of that everyday.

                                        Kathy




                                        --- ryuei2000 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                        > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > --- chris_holte <chris_holte@y...> wrote:
                                        > > > According to the Sutras, there is one Buddha to a Buddhaland.
                                        > >
                                        > > Holy moly! Are you saying now that only one person on Earth can
                                        > attain
                                        > > Enlightenment?? I never saw that in the Sutra!
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > It is very clearly stated in the Nikayas/Agamas and carries through
                                        > into the Mahayana even into the Lotus Sutra. That is the reason why
                                        > the Dragon Girl had to change into a man and go to the Spotless World
                                        >
                                        > in the South. This was the Lotus Sutra's way of both upholding and
                                        > subverting the standard assumptions inherited from the Nikayas that
                                        > only a man could be a buddha and that only one buddha could arise in
                                        > a
                                        > world per dispensation. Or I should say only one active buddha. When
                                        > Shakyamuni Buddha and Many Treasures Tathagata are together there are
                                        >
                                        > two buddhas, but technically Many Treasures is a relic-buddha in a
                                        > stupa and not an active teaching Buddha. So again, the Lotus Sutra
                                        > uphold and subverts a standard assumption of Mahayana and Hinayana
                                        > Buddhism.
                                        >
                                        > Chih-i and Miao-lo's explanations took this even further I think. I
                                        > believe that they taught that the Dragon Girl was a Buddha just as
                                        > she
                                        > was (a girl and in the same world as Shakyamuni Buddha) but that she
                                        > manifested in the standard way only to make the situation clear to
                                        > Shariputra and Bodhisattva Accumulated Wisdom. I will have to search
                                        > for an authenticated source on this though.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Are you saying Buddhahood has something to do with perfection?
                                        >
                                        > Buddhahood certainly manifests the six (or ten) perfections and a
                                        > Buddha is also supposed to have the 10 powers of the Buddha and many
                                        > other unique characteristics. I have written an article about this at
                                        >
                                        > Ryuei.net called "What is the Nature of the Buddha?" in order to
                                        > clarify what the sutras actually say buddhahood is all about.
                                        >
                                        > Note that according to chapter 21 the Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha has
                                        > ceded all these merits and powers to us - the Bodhisattvas of the
                                        > Earth. So the question we must ask ourselves is this - if we are
                                        > truly
                                        > upholding the Lotus Sutra as the Buddha taught, then why aren't we
                                        > manifesting all these powers? (Note - this is a trick question on
                                        > many
                                        > levels and I am hoping that someone here will take up this
                                        > challenge).
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Ummmm . . . Are you saying again that no one can attain
                                        > enlightenment
                                        > > in this lifetime? Or that enlightenment was never our goal? Or that
                                        > > being happy should be enough?
                                        >
                                        > I don't think Chris is saying that. We manifest buddhahood whenever
                                        > we
                                        > chant Odaimoku in the presence of the Gohonzon. Then we try to carry
                                        > that over into the rest of the nine worlds of our daily life. Being
                                        > happy in the sense of joy in the Dharma should be enough, because
                                        > that
                                        > is what enlightenment is. The gosho Happiness in this World is very
                                        > helpful in this regard I think.
                                        >
                                        > > I do practice sincerely and joyfully. I chant daimoku with my
                                        > district;
                                        > > I visit people, invite friends to meetings, etc. I have no
                                        > complaints.
                                        > > But I do expect enlightenment. Is that wrong? Inappropriate?
                                        > Arrogant?
                                        > > I am following the Daishonin's example, I believe.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > You expect enlightenment. You are not saying that you are
                                        > enlightened.
                                        > That is the crucial distinction. Don't you think that your practice
                                        > is
                                        > dynamic and open-ended? Do you think that your practice is going to
                                        > stagnate and not go any further, or will it ceaselessly unfold into
                                        > greater and greater degrees of realization, joy, and compassion? I
                                        > think this is what Chris is trying to get at.
                                        >
                                        > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                                        > Ryuei
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > fjsdfkdsjfhkdsafhksdjhfksdakjfj
                                        >
                                        >


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                                      • ryuei2000
                                        ... SGI. ... we ... It doesn t matter what Chris, the Nichiren Shu, you or myself thinks. I am simply telling you what is taught in the sutras and what is even
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jul 5, 2002
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                                          --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > So, according to Chris Holte and Nichiren Shu, there can only be one
                                          > Buddha per world! Pardon me, you all, but I think I'll stick with
                                          SGI.
                                          > It is abhorrent to me that such distinctions should be made! Surely
                                          we
                                          > all have the potential. I see evidence of that everyday.
                                          >
                                          > Kathy

                                          It doesn't matter what Chris, the Nichiren Shu, you or myself thinks.
                                          I am simply telling you what is taught in the sutras and what is even
                                          taken for granted in the Lotus Sutra. I also told you that according
                                          to the Nichiren Shu we do manifest our buddhahood when we are chanting
                                          Namu Myoho Renge Kyo before the Gohonzon, because through the power of
                                          our faith, the power of the Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha, and the power
                                          of the Wonderful Dharma we are able to inherit the merits and
                                          enlightenment of Shakyamuni Buddha.

                                          The question that mature and realistic people need to ask is this - if
                                          it is true that in chanting Odaimoku we inherit all the powers and
                                          enlightenment of the Buddha (as it states in chapter 21) then why
                                          don't we have totall recall of all the past lives of ourselves and
                                          others? Why do the exact workings of karma still elude us? Why do we
                                          still sometimes act out of greed, anger, and ignorance even when we
                                          wish to act out of understanding and compassion? Yes, buddhahood peaks
                                          through - but I think if we are honest we will admit that most of the
                                          time we are dwelling in the other nine worlds. For myself, the trick
                                          is to keep entering the world of buddhahood through Odaimoku and
                                          allowing more and more of that to transform/transfigure the rest of my
                                          life even when I am not in front of the Gohonzon.

                                          Really, think about it - with all the experiences given in SGI, how
                                          many of those are about attaining total and complete sainthood the
                                          very second after chanting Odaimoku? Most if not all of the
                                          experiences I ever hear from SGI members are about moments of clarity
                                          or synchronicity or the inconspicuous benefit of a change in one's
                                          life for the better that occurs over time and is only noticed as a
                                          profound change in retrospect. These are all wonderful benefits, so to
                                          speak, but are they "instant enlightenment"? Are the examples of
                                          perfect and complete unsurpassed enlightenment? Or are they snapshots
                                          or freeze frames of an ongoing dynamic and open-ended process into a
                                          deeper and every more profound realization of buddhahood?

                                          Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                                          Ryuei

                                          sdjfhdskjfhkdshfksdhfksdhfksdhkfhsdkfhds
                                        • chris_holte
                                          ... Kathy, this is not according to me, Nichiren Shu, nor any particular person. The distinction between the Buddha vehicle and the Bodhisattva vehicle is one
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jul 5, 2002
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                                            --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                            wrote:

                                            > So, according to Chris Holte and Nichiren Shu, there can only be
                                            > one Buddha per world! Pardon me, you all, but I think I'll stick
                                            > with SGI. It is abhorrent to me that such distinctions should be
                                            > made! Surely we all have the potential. I see evidence of that
                                            > everyday.
                                            >>
                                            Kathy, this is not according to me, Nichiren Shu, nor any particular
                                            person. The distinction between the Buddha vehicle and the
                                            Bodhisattva vehicle is one that has been argued about for centuries.
                                            I'm just repeating what has been said by others, and so are the
                                            scholars and adherents of Nichiren Shu. The truth is the Lotus Sutra
                                            argues that there are not three vehicles in reality at all, but only
                                            one vehicle, and that therefore the Bodhisattva Vehicle, the Arhat
                                            Vehicle, and the Self Enlightened one vehicle are really but one
                                            Vehicle; the way to Buddhahood. This is another way of saying that
                                            the higher worlds are actually part of the Buddha vehicle when
                                            harmonized with a proper seeking mind, faith, study and propagation
                                            efforts. Nichiren argues for attaining Buddhahood in one's present
                                            form. So ultimately there can be many "Buddha's" in the world,
                                            because we can all shine with the light of enlightenment.

                                            The point of limiting the appellation of Buddhahood to one person is
                                            not to demean or disparage other people. I've been looking at the
                                            matter carefully and came to the conclusion that the purpose is to
                                            differentiate between the vehicle and the "law" or dharma taught by
                                            that vehicle. Shakyamuni is given the honor of being the "Father of
                                            this world" not because Shakyamuni really was that Golden Buddha
                                            portrayed in the Mahayana Sutras, but because he was the first one
                                            to "turn the wheel of the law." He is considered a "sage" because he
                                            taught unique things for a first time. Nichiren is a sage because he
                                            taught unique things for the first time. It is this wheel of the law
                                            which itself is the source of all beings Buddhahood. This is why the
                                            Juryo chapter was preached, and why NST scholars long ago made
                                            Nichiren's law as something that was superior to (Hence prior to)
                                            that of Shakyamuni's.

                                            I would share your abhorrance of a world without living Buddhas, if I
                                            hadn't seen so many examples of the mischief that premature claims of
                                            Buddhahood bring to this world. We have the historic examples of Kobo
                                            Daishi, Jikaku Daishi, and many others, all of whom were elevated to
                                            the ranks of Buddhas by their followers in controvention of this
                                            convention. We have modern examples such as Sung Myung Ming and Ron
                                            Hubbard. This made their teachings untouchable by critics without
                                            criticizing "refuting" their entire sect. It is a kind of mischief
                                            that undermines the integrity of a school from within. It represents
                                            the "third of the powerful enemies" because such sages then put the
                                            value of their own thoughts over the sutras and traditions they
                                            inherited. The purpose of this "one Buddha teaching" wasn't to deny
                                            your or my ability to reach enlightenment, or even our "Buddhahood
                                            within", just to guard against such teachers pretending to be what
                                            they really weren't quite yet.

                                            And Nichiren subscribed to this convention in his writings himself.
                                            In QA on the Lotus Sutra he writes;

                                            http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/library/Nichiren/Gosho/Q_A.htm

                                            "Now, if you wish to attain Buddhahood, you have only to lower the
                                            banners of your arrogance, cast aside the staff of your anger, and
                                            devote yourself exclusively to the one vehicle of the Lotus Sutra.
                                            Worldly fame and profit are mere baubles of your present existence,
                                            and arrogance and prejudice are ties that will fetter you in a future
                                            one. Ah, you should be ashamed of them! And you should fear them,
                                            too! *q/a"

                                            Which is good advice for all of us. And when Nichiren writes:

                                            "The blessings gained by arousing even a single moment of faith in
                                            and understanding of the Lotus Sutra surpass those of practicing the
                                            five paramitas; and the benefit enjoyed by the fiftieth person who
                                            rejoices on hearing the Law is greater than that acquired by giving
                                            alms for eighty years. The doctrine of the immediate attainment of
                                            enlightenment far outshines the doctrines of other scriptures; and
                                            the pronouncements concerning the revelation of the Buddha's original
                                            enlightenment and the immeasurable duration of his life as the Buddha
                                            are never found in any of the other teachings. *q/a"

                                            He is basing his teachings firmly on the Lotus Sutra and telling us
                                            that we can attain enlightenment immediately. Does that mean that our
                                            bodies are going to suddenly magically change to gold and our ears
                                            get long? No, not likely. But it does mean that for Nichiren, and
                                            ourselves at least;

                                            "Hence, if the Law that one embraces is supreme, then the person who
                                            embraces it must accordingly be foremost among all others. And if
                                            that is so, then to speak ill of that person is to speak ill of the
                                            Law, just as to show contempt for the son is to show contempt for the
                                            parents who bore him.*q/a"

                                            It is the "Law" that makes the difference between whether what we say
                                            is something that brings enlightenment to people or whether or not we
                                            are hurting them. Nichiren goes on to say:

                                            "You should realize from this that the people of today speak words
                                            that in no way match what is in their hearts. It is as though they
                                            were to beat their parents with a copy of the Classic of Filial
                                            Piety. When they know that, unseen by others, the Buddhas and
                                            bodhisattvas are observing them, how can they fall to be ashamed of
                                            such actions! The pains of hell are frightful indeed. Beware of them!
                                            Beware of them!*q/a"

                                            How many of us beat each other up with admonitions not to commit
                                            onshitsu? How many of us insist on drawing lines in the sand and
                                            forgetting that the human beings on the other side of those lines are
                                            ultimately the same as they are? Nichiren goes on to say:

                                            "When you look at those of superior capacity, do not disparage
                                            yourself. The Buddha's true intention was that no one, even those of
                                            inferior capacity, be denied enlightenment. Conversely, when you
                                            compare yourself with persons of inferior capacity, do not be
                                            arrogant and overproud. Even persons of superior capacity may be
                                            excluded from enlightenment if they do not devote themselves
                                            wholeheartedly.*q/a"

                                            So, to answer your implied question. The distinction between being a
                                            Buddha and the notion that there is only one "Buddha" in the world
                                            and what Nichiren is talking about is the difference between being
                                            and doing. Nichiren criticizes people for asserting that only sages
                                            can understand Buddhahood and he also criticizes people who would
                                            assert that they are Buddhas already or that someone important to
                                            them is.

                                            "The Maka shikan says: 'If one lacks faith [in the Lotus Sutra], one
                                            will object that it pertains to the lofty realm of the sages,
                                            something far beyond the capacity of one's own wisdom to comprehend.
                                            If one lacks wisdom, one will become puffed up with arrogance and
                                            will claim to be the equal of the Buddha.'" (Kaimoku Sho Volume 2)

                                            So to manifest Buddhahood we need to display faith in the Lotus
                                            Sutra, by reciting it's title, embracing the heart of it's teachings,
                                            and by acting as it's votary. If we do that we are acting the part of
                                            a Buddha/bodhisattva and making the cause to become enlightened. That
                                            is what is meant by an "emissary of the Buddha." The point of putting
                                            it this way is to avoid becoming "puffed up with arrogance."

                                            Chris

                                            Quotes are from the two Gosho QA on the Lotus Sutra and the Kaimoku
                                            Sho. I have not done this subject justice and can't really in one
                                            post.
                                          • sgipeter
                                            Kathy, that doesn t mean that other organizations cannot inspire their members in daily life. You are comapring apples and oranges. And just because YOU feel
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jul 5, 2002
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                                              Kathy, that doesn't mean that other organizations cannot inspire
                                              their members in daily life. You are comapring apples and oranges.
                                              And just because YOU feel these things where YOU practice doen't mean
                                              others feel the same thing where YOU practice.

                                              Of course there are those who would take this fact of human nature,
                                              (that not everyTHING works for EVERYBODY) and use it to say that
                                              those who find their inspiration somewhere else, or, god frobid, who
                                              see terrible shortcomings in Kathy's organization, are not
                                              practicing "true buddhism."

                                              Oddly enough, you just inferred that "The Law" is secondary to your
                                              practice and that it's the group you're with that is paramount.
                                              That's fine for you but what about those that are attracted to
                                              Nichiren's teaching of "rely on the law and not the person"? Do you
                                              have any right to judge them on the basis that you have found a group
                                              that you're comfortable with while they are not? If you work to
                                              squelch their freedom of expression are you not either placing your
                                              prefernces of your group and your interpretation of the law (or at
                                              least your skill in choosing whose interpretaion is right) above
                                              theirs?

                                              And if so that, if you make the group unwelcoming to those people,
                                              are you not denying them the very thing you value so much? Are you
                                              not actually acting in a way to drive them away, which you will then
                                              condemn them for doing?

                                              P.



                                              --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                              wrote:
                                              > Dear Michael,
                                              >
                                              > I don't give a darn about remembering past lives or achieving
                                              > perfection or sainthood, whatever that means.
                                              >
                                              > I prefer to practice Buddhism with people who work together to
                                              manifest
                                              > hope, courage, confidence, and joy in daily life. I see none of
                                              that in
                                              > the teachings that you and Chris espouse.
                                              >
                                              > BTW, Michael, why are you here on the the Soka Gakkai International
                                              > egroup? Are there no Nichiren Shu-related egroups? Or are you here
                                              > trolling for new members?
                                              >
                                              > Kathy Ruby
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- ryuei2000 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                              > > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > > So, according to Chris Holte and Nichiren Shu, there can only be
                                              > > one
                                              > > > Buddha per world! Pardon me, you all, but I think I'll stick
                                              with
                                              > > SGI.
                                              > > > It is abhorrent to me that such distinctions should be made!
                                              Surely
                                              > >
                                              > > we
                                              > > > all have the potential. I see evidence of that everyday.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Kathy
                                              > >
                                              > > It doesn't matter what Chris, the Nichiren Shu, you or myself
                                              thinks.
                                              > >
                                              > > I am simply telling you what is taught in the sutras and what is
                                              even
                                              > >
                                              > > taken for granted in the Lotus Sutra. I also told you that
                                              according
                                              > > to the Nichiren Shu we do manifest our buddhahood when we are
                                              > > chanting
                                              > > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo before the Gohonzon, because through the
                                              power
                                              > > of
                                              > > our faith, the power of the Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha, and the
                                              power
                                              > > of the Wonderful Dharma we are able to inherit the merits and
                                              > > enlightenment of Shakyamuni Buddha.
                                              > >
                                              > > The question that mature and realistic people need to ask is
                                              this -
                                              > > if
                                              > > it is true that in chanting Odaimoku we inherit all the powers
                                              and
                                              > > enlightenment of the Buddha (as it states in chapter 21) then why
                                              > > don't we have totall recall of all the past lives of ourselves
                                              and
                                              > > others? Why do the exact workings of karma still elude us? Why do
                                              we
                                              > > still sometimes act out of greed, anger, and ignorance even when
                                              we
                                              > > wish to act out of understanding and compassion? Yes, buddhahood
                                              > > peaks
                                              > > through - but I think if we are honest we will admit that most of
                                              the
                                              > >
                                              > > time we are dwelling in the other nine worlds. For myself, the
                                              trick
                                              > > is to keep entering the world of buddhahood through Odaimoku and
                                              > > allowing more and more of that to transform/transfigure the rest
                                              of
                                              > > my
                                              > > life even when I am not in front of the Gohonzon.
                                              > >
                                              > > Really, think about it - with all the experiences given in SGI,
                                              how
                                              > > many of those are about attaining total and complete sainthood
                                              the
                                              > > very second after chanting Odaimoku? Most if not all of the
                                              > > experiences I ever hear from SGI members are about moments of
                                              clarity
                                              > >
                                              > > or synchronicity or the inconspicuous benefit of a change in
                                              one's
                                              > > life for the better that occurs over time and is only noticed as
                                              a
                                              > > profound change in retrospect. These are all wonderful benefits,
                                              so
                                              > > to
                                              > > speak, but are they "instant enlightenment"? Are the examples of
                                              > > perfect and complete unsurpassed enlightenment? Or are they
                                              snapshots
                                              > >
                                              > > or freeze frames of an ongoing dynamic and open-ended process
                                              into a
                                              > > deeper and every more profound realization of buddhahood?
                                              > >
                                              > > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                                              > > Ryuei
                                              > >
                                              > > sdjfhdskjfhkdshfksdhfksdhfksdhkfhsdkfhds
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > __________________________________________________
                                              > Do You Yahoo!?
                                              > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
                                              > http://sbc.yahoo.com
                                            • chris_holte
                                              ... I m sure that we are all seeking enlightenment. That should be good enough. And Nichiren says that the only thing that can block that achievement, once we
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jul 5, 2002
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                                                --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                                wrote:
                                                > Dear Michael,
                                                >
                                                > I don't give a darn about remembering past lives or achieving
                                                > perfection or sainthood, whatever that means.

                                                I'm sure that we are all seeking enlightenment. That should be good
                                                enough. And Nichiren says that the only thing that can block that
                                                achievement, once we start chanting, are the fourteen slanders and
                                                fundamental darkness operating through them. I am fighting that
                                                battle, Mike is fighting that battle, and I hope you are fighting
                                                that battle. You win over fundamental darkness and you reach
                                                enlightenment. You loose that battle, and oh well. Only onshitsu can
                                                destroy those "ropes" that bind us together.

                                                > I prefer to practice Buddhism with people who work together
                                                > to manifest hope, courage, confidence, and joy in daily life.
                                                > I see none of that in the teachings that you and Chris espouse.

                                                Do not lump me in with Michael or anyone else. I am practicing true
                                                Buddhism and studying it. Sometimes I have to agree with Michael,
                                                sometimes we agree to disagree. I am facing obstacles, as I guess,
                                                apparently so is everyone else. Don't burn the ropes that bind people
                                                together! They are the lifelines that enable us to climb
                                                this "mountain".

                                                Chris
                                              • brad-jennie
                                                ... What is onshitsu? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jul 5, 2002
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                                                  On 7/5/02 9:37 AM, "chris_holte" <chris_holte@...> wrote:

                                                  > Only onshitsu can
                                                  > destroy those "ropes" that bind us together.
                                                  >


                                                  What is onshitsu?


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • NichikanG1999@aol.com
                                                  ... Dear Kathy, From what I can tell from having read the Lotus Sutra, there can be more than one Buddha on the Earth at one time. When Taho s Treasure Tower
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jul 5, 2002
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                                                    > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                                    > wrote:
                                                    > > So, according to Chris Holte and Nichiren Shu, there can only be one
                                                    > > Buddha per world! Pardon me, you all, but I think I'll stick with
                                                    > SGI.
                                                    > > It is abhorrent to me that such distinctions should be made! Surely
                                                    > we
                                                    > > all have the potential. I see evidence of that everyday.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Kathy

                                                    Dear Kathy,

                                                    From what I can tell from having read the Lotus Sutra, there can
                                                    be more than one Buddha on the Earth at one time. When Taho's Treasure Tower
                                                    arose from within the earth and hung in empty space to bear witness to the
                                                    truth of Shakyamuni's preaching of the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha called forth
                                                    all of the Buddha's that had emanated from himself and were preaching
                                                    throughout the Ten Directions of the universe. In order to do this, he
                                                    purified this very Saha World of ours. There were so many uncountable numbers
                                                    of Buddhas coming here from the Ten Directions that Shakyamuni had to expand
                                                    this world many times over for them all to be able to assemble in this one
                                                    place. So yes, not only can there be more than one Buddha in one world, there
                                                    can be uncountable Buddha's here at one time.
                                                    One of Nichiren's interesting teachings is that the Buddha is a
                                                    "provisional" Buddha and that the common mortal is the "true" Buddha. If this
                                                    is the case, then it can be said that although there can only be one
                                                    "provisional" Buddha, such as Shakyamuni, in the world at any one time, there
                                                    may be multitudes of "true" Buddha's in the world at a time, all of whom are
                                                    carrying on Bodhisattva practices based on the Lotus Sutra as Bodhisattvas of
                                                    the Earth.

                                                    e

                                                    "I pray for peace throughout the world and the happiness of all humanity."
                                                    From The Liturgy of the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin.
                                                    Nam-myoho-renge-kyo


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • fufubca
                                                    I beleive Onshitsu means - Hatred and jealousy which causes unwillingness to liste. hope this helps. In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., brad-jennie
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jul 5, 2002
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                                                      I beleive Onshitsu means - Hatred and jealousy which causes
                                                      unwillingness to liste.
                                                      hope this helps.






                                                      In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., brad-jennie <Brad-Jennie@a...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      > On 7/5/02 9:37 AM, "chris_holte" <chris_holte@y...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > Only onshitsu can
                                                      > > destroy those "ropes" that bind us together.
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > What is onshitsu?
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • cowalton7
                                                      And exactly what is the question that the immature and unrealistic people should be asking? It seems that your comments and what you say reveal high levels of
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jul 6, 2002
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                                                        And exactly what is the question that the immature and unrealistic
                                                        people should be asking?

                                                        It seems that your comments and what you say reveal high levels
                                                        of "Distinctions" and that is not in line with the Buddhist
                                                        Philosophy that you readily write on.

                                                        The Buddha has the capacity to teach and respond to all questions and
                                                        provide answers that please the hearts and minds of all hearers. The
                                                        Question is but the cause for the Buddhas Wisdom to be made manifest.
                                                        The Value of the question has nothing to so with the "Maturity"
                                                        or "Reality Level" of the person. The Quality of the answer from the
                                                        Buddha is 100% Buddha. You seem to wrongly attribute the need for
                                                        certain qualities to be in the question for a valid answer to be
                                                        provided!

                                                        Your repeated use of the terms "Mature" and "Realistic" seem to be
                                                        very divisive and fail to address the reality of all people just as
                                                        they are! Buddhism is not just for one arbitrary group!

                                                        Perhaps what is needed is "The Buddha of the Land of Maturity and
                                                        Reality" for one group and "The Buddha of Immature Imaginings" for
                                                        the rest of the folks not involved in your questions! This is not
                                                        Buddhism it is Buddhist-ism – the philosophy created by Buddhists to
                                                        suit themselves!

                                                        From my experience, it is the supposedly mature and realistic who do
                                                        not ask the question you highlight as they are too arrogant and self
                                                        fulfilled. The arbitrarily Mature and Realistic clearly need to
                                                        listen to the Arbitrarily Immature and Unrealistic as it is they who
                                                        do not fear to ask such questions and to answer them wisely too! You
                                                        seem to believe that People will ask the question. Think of the
                                                        Emperors new cloths and consider the Maturity and Reality level of
                                                        the person who asked about the rulers Nudity!

                                                        You say that you use a trick to enter Buddhahood whilst chanting. Let
                                                        me point you to another word that does just the same and in no
                                                        Trick. "Faith"! Faith is independent of Maturity and Reality levels.
                                                        Don't bother with the tricks, they just waste time! Study Practice
                                                        and Teaching all work too and work better when oiled with faith.
                                                        Tricks is for magicians and conjurers – faith is for the wise! Tricks
                                                        do not deal with reality, just a bit that can be manipulated to
                                                        achieve a short lived, and supposedly impressive result. Faith
                                                        transcends such things and deals with all of reality, not just the
                                                        easily manipulated bits!

                                                        Cliperty51



                                                        --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., ryuei2000 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                                        > --- In SokaGakkaiInternational@y..., Kathy Ruby <kathyruby@y...>
                                                        > wrote:
                                                        > > So, according to Chris Holte and Nichiren Shu, there can only be
                                                        one
                                                        > > Buddha per world! Pardon me, you all, but I think I'll stick with
                                                        > SGI.
                                                        > > It is abhorrent to me that such distinctions should be made!
                                                        Surely
                                                        > we
                                                        > > all have the potential. I see evidence of that everyday.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Kathy
                                                        >
                                                        > It doesn't matter what Chris, the Nichiren Shu, you or myself
                                                        thinks.
                                                        > I am simply telling you what is taught in the sutras and what is
                                                        even
                                                        > taken for granted in the Lotus Sutra. I also told you that
                                                        according
                                                        > to the Nichiren Shu we do manifest our buddhahood when we are
                                                        chanting
                                                        > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo before the Gohonzon, because through the power
                                                        of
                                                        > our faith, the power of the Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha, and the
                                                        power
                                                        > of the Wonderful Dharma we are able to inherit the merits and
                                                        > enlightenment of Shakyamuni Buddha.
                                                        >
                                                        > The question that mature and realistic people need to ask is this -
                                                        if
                                                        > it is true that in chanting Odaimoku we inherit all the powers and
                                                        > enlightenment of the Buddha (as it states in chapter 21) then why
                                                        > don't we have totall recall of all the past lives of ourselves and
                                                        > others? Why do the exact workings of karma still elude us? Why do
                                                        we
                                                        > still sometimes act out of greed, anger, and ignorance even when we
                                                        > wish to act out of understanding and compassion? Yes, buddhahood
                                                        peaks
                                                        > through - but I think if we are honest we will admit that most of
                                                        the
                                                        > time we are dwelling in the other nine worlds. For myself, the
                                                        trick
                                                        > is to keep entering the world of buddhahood through Odaimoku and
                                                        > allowing more and more of that to transform/transfigure the rest of
                                                        my
                                                        > life even when I am not in front of the Gohonzon.
                                                        >
                                                        > Really, think about it - with all the experiences given in SGI, how
                                                        > many of those are about attaining total and complete sainthood the
                                                        > very second after chanting Odaimoku? Most if not all of the
                                                        > experiences I ever hear from SGI members are about moments of
                                                        clarity
                                                        > or synchronicity or the inconspicuous benefit of a change in one's
                                                        > life for the better that occurs over time and is only noticed as a
                                                        > profound change in retrospect. These are all wonderful benefits, so
                                                        to
                                                        > speak, but are they "instant enlightenment"? Are the examples of
                                                        > perfect and complete unsurpassed enlightenment? Or are they
                                                        snapshots
                                                        > or freeze frames of an ongoing dynamic and open-ended process into
                                                        a
                                                        > deeper and every more profound realization of buddhahood?
                                                        >
                                                        > Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
                                                        > Ryuei
                                                        >
                                                        > sdjfhdskjfhkdshfksdhfksdhfksdhkfhsdkfhds
                                                      • paulgwer
                                                        ... the opposite of kudoku (benefit). Paul W.
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jul 6, 2002
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                                                          > What is onshitsu?

                                                          the opposite of kudoku (benefit).

                                                          Paul W.
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