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Re: The Ongi Kuden

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  • William
    Hello: I m a fan of the Ongi Kuden...and of course there is no conclusive proof that it accurately reflects Nichiren s oral lectures. Therefore, I never quote
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 1, 2011
      Hello:
      I'm a fan of the Ongi Kuden...and of course there is no conclusive proof that it accurately reflects Nichiren's oral lectures. Therefore, I never quote it as "Niohiren said"...although some do.

      That being said, I find it reinforces my concept of Nichiren's intent.

      It is true that there is less "Hongaku" teaching in the authenticated Gosho...and yet the very basis of Nichiren's writings lie in the concept of "original enlightenment".

      "On Attaing Buddahood"...the first Gosho...establishes this principlein its opening words.
      "If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life".

      "The Rooster Diagram" clearly shows that the object of devotion is
      the three bodies attained in the remoted past...which have "no beginning and no end". Hongaku?

      I do want to comment that I'm not comfortable with the SGI quoting the Ongi Kuden with the preface "Nichiren writes".

      Better to say "Nikko recorded Nichiren's oral teachings in this way..."

      No problem.

      One final comment...
      I don't like buddhists categorically rejecting Jackie Stone's writings
      just because she isn't that popular with the SGI. In my opinion, she really doesn't contradict SGI doctrine as it is apparently evolving.

      The contradiction is with Nichiren Shoshu mythology...from which we are rapidly separating.

      David
    • ryuei2000
      Hi David, Of course On Attaining Buddhahood is also a disputed writing. It also happens to be one of my favorites and the gosho that really hooked me on
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 1, 2011
        Hi David,

        Of course "On Attaining Buddhahood" is also a disputed writing. It also happens to be one of my favorites and the gosho that really hooked me on Nichiren in the first place.

        There are other disputed writings that I really like, "Letter to Gijo-bo", "Happiness in this World" (at least it is not authenticated, I am not sure to what extent if any it is disputed), and "Conversation Between a Sage and an Unenlightened Man." There are others but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Lately, however, I have been exclusively devoting my attention to the five major writings and other authenticated works that help elucidate the meaning of those five.

        When I do quote a disputed writing (no chance to quote Ongi Kuden yet) I usually say, "In a writing attributed to Nichiren…"

        If it were something that we know he didn't write (for instance a gosho that contains anachronisms or some flat out contradiction to his authenticated works) I would probably just call it, "A writing by an anonymous author writing as Nichiren" or something like that.



        Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
        Ryuei



        --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "William" <gaydave53@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello:
        > I'm a fan of the Ongi Kuden...and of course there is no conclusive proof that it accurately reflects Nichiren's oral lectures. Therefore, I never quote it as "Niohiren said"...although some do.
        >
        > That being said, I find it reinforces my concept of Nichiren's intent.
        >
        > It is true that there is less "Hongaku" teaching in the authenticated Gosho...and yet the very basis of Nichiren's writings lie in the concept of "original enlightenment".
        >
        > "On Attaing Buddahood"...the first Gosho...establishes this principlein its opening words.
        > "If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life".
        >
        > "The Rooster Diagram" clearly shows that the object of devotion is
        > the three bodies attained in the remoted past...which have "no beginning and no end". Hongaku?
        >
        > I do want to comment that I'm not comfortable with the SGI quoting the Ongi Kuden with the preface "Nichiren writes".
        >
        > Better to say "Nikko recorded Nichiren's oral teachings in this way..."
        >
        > No problem.
        >
        > One final comment...
        > I don't like buddhists categorically rejecting Jackie Stone's writings
        > just because she isn't that popular with the SGI. In my opinion, she really doesn't contradict SGI doctrine as it is apparently evolving.
        >
        > The contradiction is with Nichiren Shoshu mythology...from which we are rapidly separating.
        >
        > David
        >
      • Rob
        ... There is some material from ddb below. I have no idea how well it will format. It seems to me there are advantages and perils to both viewpoints. The
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 2, 2011
          --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "William" <gaydave53@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello:
          > I'm a fan of the Ongi Kuden...and of course there is no conclusive proof that it accurately reflects Nichiren's oral lectures. Therefore, I never quote it as "Niohiren said"...although some do.
          >
          > That being said, I find it reinforces my concept of Nichiren's intent.
          >
          > It is true that there is less "Hongaku" teaching in the authenticated Gosho...and yet the very basis of Nichiren's writings lie in the concept of "original enlightenment".
          >

          There is some material from ddb below. I have no idea how well it will format.

          It seems to me there are advantages and perils to both viewpoints. The former can lead to rigidity and intolerance. The latter can lead to sort of a valueless, self indulgent cynicism.

          Or I could be way off base here. I am just speculating and grown rather comfortable with uncertainty.

          I was wondering if there are any parallels to the differences between modernism and postmodernism; which btw, I can not wrap my brain around.

          I was also thinking about shikaku and and hongaku in relation to
          境智冥合 kyochi myogo. Kyo 境 here refers to the object of cognition. I think the sanskrit word is vishaya.In this caee, I think it refers to Objective Wisdom or Myo 明 (vidya); the Dharma presented as a revealed object perceived by the senses. So the object of worship might represent shigaku, the attained awakening.

          Chi 智 is jnana; which mean subjective knowledge, cognition, awareness. If the object of cognition is an attainment of awakening -- such as a statue of the Buddha or some words written on paper explaining or depicting the Dharma ; then the subjective 'remembers' it is enlightened and has always been enlightened; hence hongaku.

          ????

          The advantage of shikaku thought is we have a reliable model of what awakening should look like. The peril might be the notion that some some specific objective form of attained awakening or wisdom is the one and only. Therefore, no one else can really find it for themselves? Also, if we cling too tightly to one form, that can lead to the errors of perpetualism, dogmatism. and absolutism; which can yield rigidity, intolerance. and puffed up claims of a monopoly on the gate to salvation.

          The obvious advantage of hongaku thought is that all living beings have the potential to awaken right now. The peril might be the notion that we are already awake, so there is no need to cultivate or follow any rules. This can lead to nihilism and self indulgence.

          The resolution is myogo 冥合 = unite, match perfectly. The distinction between subject and is let go / abandoned, the fusion is neither subject nor object.

          We still need an objective model, but we can also be flexible.

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          本覚 hongaku

          Basic Meaning: original enlightenment

          Senses:
          Also rendered as innate enlightenment and intrinsic enlightenment. The possession by sentient beings of enlightenment as their basic nature, which means that enlightenment is not something to be obtained externally, as a distant goal, or as part of a gradual, purifying process, but exists in full reality here in the present moment, and therefore sentient beings need only to awaken to it. This is a concept expressed commonly in scriptural works of East Asian provenance, such as the Awakening of Faith 起信論 and the Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment åœ"覺ç¶". It is due to this East Asian origin that there are no direct Indic terms indicated as sources for the concept, which in turn offers support to the argument for the East Asian provenance of such texts. It is in the Awakening of Faith in particular where the background of the doctrine is developed in detail, where it is explained in contrast to 'initial (actualized) enlightenment' 始覺, as transcending the dualistic opposition of enlightenment 覺 vs. nonenlightenment 不覺. See T 1666.32.576b14. [cmuller]

          Original bodhi, i. e. 'enlightenment', awareness, knowledge, or wisdom, as contrasted with 始覺 initial knowledge, that is 'enlightenment a priori is contrasted with enlightenment a posteriori'. Suzuki, Awakening of Faith, P. 62. The reference is to universal mind 衆ç"Ÿä¹‹å¿ƒé«", which is conceived as pure and intelligent, with 始覺 as active intelligence. It is considered as the Buddha-dharmakāya, or as it might perhaps be termed, the fundamental mind. Nevertheless in action from the first it was influenced by its antithesis 無明 ignorance, the opposite of awareness, or true knowledge. See 起信論 and 仁王ç¶", 中. There are two kinds of 本覺, one which is unconditioned, and never sullied by ignorance and delusion, the other which is conditioned and subject to ignorance. In original enlightenment is implied potential enlightenment in each being. [cmuller; source(s): Soothill]
          http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?q=%E6%9C%AC%E8%A6%BA


          始覺 shikaku

          Basic Meaning: initial enlightenment

          Senses:
          The first phenomenal actualization of enlightenment in this lifetime, as contrasted to innate enlightenment 本覺 (or 'original enlightenment,' 'intrinsic enlightenment,' etc.) which is the basic Buddha-nature of sentient beings. The concepts of initial enlightenment and original enlightenment are a primary topic of discussion in the Awakening of Mahāyāna Faith 起信論 at T 1666.32.576b14.

          Initial enlightenment arises from the inner perfuming 薰 of the mind and from external teaching. Original enlightenment contains the four values adopted and made transcendent by the Nirvāṇa-sÅ«tra, viz. constancy 常, bliss 樂, self-stability æˆ`, and purity æ·¨. These are acquired through the process of enlightenment
          http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?59.xml+id%28%27b59cb-89ba%27%29
        • verrytesty
          Robin, You might want to check out Chandrakirti, or Nagarjuna or even Stcherbatsky for a deep dive into the Buddhist logic underlying these concepts. The
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 2, 2011
            Robin,

            You might want to check out Chandrakirti, or Nagarjuna or even
            Stcherbatsky for a deep dive into the Buddhist logic underlying these
            concepts.

            The "subject" cannot ever be completely "let go". Therein lay fusion
            (if subject then with no alternative, objects). We live it unavoidably
            (which is the objective model always in front of us). Hence
            "originality".

            Objects of worship and rules of engagement have their place. But
            fundamentally the efficacy of these is wholly dependent on the ability
            of the mind that engages with them and the logic that the mind employs.

            --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rrobinrb2000@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "William" gaydave53@
            wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello:
            > > I'm a fan of the Ongi Kuden...and of course there is no conclusive
            proof that it accurately reflects Nichiren's oral lectures. Therefore, I
            never quote it as "Niohiren said"...although some do.
            > >
            > > That being said, I find it reinforces my concept of Nichiren's
            intent.
            > >
            > > It is true that there is less "Hongaku" teaching in the
            authenticated Gosho...and yet the very basis of Nichiren's writings lie
            in the concept of "original enlightenment".
            > >
            >
            > There is some material from ddb below. I have no idea how well it will
            format.
            >
            > It seems to me there are advantages and perils to both viewpoints. The
            former can lead to rigidity and intolerance. The latter can lead to sort
            of a valueless, self indulgent cynicism.
            >
            > Or I could be way off base here. I am just speculating and grown
            rather comfortable with uncertainty.
            >
            > I was wondering if there are any parallels to the differences between
            modernism and postmodernism; which btw, I can not wrap my brain around.
            >
            > I was also thinking about shikaku and and hongaku in relation to
            > 境智冥合 kyochi myogo. Kyo 境 here refers to the
            object of cognition. I think the sanskrit word is vishaya.In this caee,
            I think it refers to Objective Wisdom or Myo 明 (vidya); the
            Dharma presented as a revealed object perceived by the senses. So the
            object of worship might represent shigaku, the attained awakening.
            >
            > Chi 智 is jnana; which mean subjective knowledge, cognition,
            awareness. If the object of cognition is an attainment of awakening --
            such as a statue of the Buddha or some words written on paper explaining
            or depicting the Dharma ; then the subjective 'remembers' it is
            enlightened and has always been enlightened; hence hongaku.
            >
            > ????
            >
            > The advantage of shikaku thought is we have a reliable model of what
            awakening should look like. The peril might be the notion that some some
            specific objective form of attained awakening or wisdom is the one and
            only. Therefore, no one else can really find it for themselves? Also, if
            we cling too tightly to one form, that can lead to the errors of
            perpetualism, dogmatism. and absolutism; which can yield rigidity,
            intolerance. and puffed up claims of a monopoly on the gate to
            salvation.
            >
            > The obvious advantage of hongaku thought is that all living beings
            have the potential to awaken right now. The peril might be the notion
            that we are already awake, so there is no need to cultivate or follow
            any rules. This can lead to nihilism and self indulgence.
            >
            > The resolution is myogo 冥合 = unite, match perfectly. The
            distinction between subject and is let go / abandoned, the fusion is
            neither subject nor object.
            >
            > We still need an objective model, but we can also be flexible.
            >
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            >
            > 本覚 hongaku
            >
            > Basic Meaning: original enlightenment
            >
            > Senses:
            > Also rendered as innate enlightenment and intrinsic enlightenment. The
            possession by sentient beings of enlightenment as their basic nature,
            which means that enlightenment is not something to be obtained
            externally, as a distant goal, or as part of a gradual, purifying
            process, but exists in full reality here in the present moment, and
            therefore sentient beings need only to awaken to it. This is a concept
            expressed commonly in scriptural works of East Asian provenance, such as
            the Awakening of Faith 起信論 and the Sutra of Perfect
            Enlightenment åœ"覺ç¶". It is due to this East Asian origin that
            there are no direct Indic terms indicated as sources for the concept,
            which in turn offers support to the argument for the East Asian
            provenance of such texts. It is in the Awakening of Faith in particular
            where the background of the doctrine is developed in detail, where it is
            explained in contrast to 'initial (actualized) enlightenment'
            始覺, as transcending the dualistic opposition of enlightenment
            覺 vs. nonenlightenment 不覺. See T 1666.32.576b14. [cmuller]
            >
            > Original bodhi, i. e. 'enlightenment', awareness, knowledge, or
            wisdom, as contrasted with 始覺 initial knowledge, that is
            'enlightenment a priori is contrasted with enlightenment a posteriori'.
            Suzuki, Awakening of Faith, P. 62. The reference is to universal mind
            衆ç"Ÿä¹‹å¿ƒé«", which is conceived as pure and intelligent,
            with 始覺 as active intelligence. It is considered as the
            Buddha-dharmakāya, or as it might perhaps be termed, the
            fundamental mind. Nevertheless in action from the first it was
            influenced by its antithesis 無明 ignorance, the opposite of
            awareness, or true knowledge. See 起信論 and 仁王ç¶",
            中. There are two kinds of 本覺, one which is unconditioned,
            and never sullied by ignorance and delusion, the other which is
            conditioned and subject to ignorance. In original enlightenment is
            implied potential enlightenment in each being. [cmuller; source(s):
            Soothill]
            > http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?q=%E6%9C%AC%E8%A6%BA
            >
            >
            > 始覺 shikaku
            >
            > Basic Meaning: initial enlightenment
            >
            > Senses:
            > The first phenomenal actualization of enlightenment in this lifetime,
            as contrasted to innate enlightenment 本覺 (or 'original
            enlightenment,' 'intrinsic enlightenment,' etc.) which is the basic
            Buddha-nature of sentient beings. The concepts of initial enlightenment
            and original enlightenment are a primary topic of discussion in the
            Awakening of Mahāyāna Faith 起信論 at T 1666.32.576b14.
            >
            > Initial enlightenment arises from the inner perfuming 薰 of the
            mind and from external teaching. Original enlightenment contains the
            four values adopted and made transcendent by the
            Nirvāṇa-sūtra, viz. constancy 常, bliss 樂,
            self-stability æˆ`, and purity æ·¨. These are acquired through
            the process of enlightenment
            >
            http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?59.xml+id%28%27b59cb-89b\
            a%27%29
            >
          • steve
            I personally am not so keen on hongaku thought, largely because it implies transcendance is an effortless process. My just mouthing a few words, or
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 4, 2011
              I personally am not so keen on hongaku thought, largely because it implies transcendance is an effortless process. My just mouthing a few words, or "believing" something or other, in that moment, I have suddenly, "attained" buddhahood, or I am "already" enlightened, or something like that.

              The problem is that beliefs and feelings, just like everything else, has birth,development,old age and death. Therefore if just "feeling" something momentarily gives us some sudden enhanced spiritual status, I think that exactly follows the same habits of mind that lead us into problems. And very soon the "attainment" of buddhahood becomes a distant memory.

              Attaining enlightenment in this way is like declaring yourself bankrupt, and therefore all the loans and drags on you suddenly disappear and you are back to your unconditioned, unindebted, state - for a moment - but then you realize you can't take out mortgages anymore (metaphor starting to break down here).

              My point being - you don't get anything for nothing - and if the deal seems too good to be true it probably is - and therefore just saying 1 nmrk means you are "reborn" - well that is for silly people.

              Steve



              --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "verrytesty" <verrytesty@...> wrote:
              >
              > Robin,
              >
              > You might want to check out Chandrakirti, or Nagarjuna or even
              > Stcherbatsky for a deep dive into the Buddhist logic underlying these
              > concepts.
              >
              > The "subject" cannot ever be completely "let go". Therein lay fusion
              > (if subject then with no alternative, objects). We live it unavoidably
              > (which is the objective model always in front of us). Hence
              > "originality".
              >
              > Objects of worship and rules of engagement have their place. But
              > fundamentally the efficacy of these is wholly dependent on the ability
              > of the mind that engages with them and the logic that the mind employs.
              >
              > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rrobinrb2000@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "William" gaydave53@
              > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello:
              > > > I'm a fan of the Ongi Kuden...and of course there is no conclusive
              > proof that it accurately reflects Nichiren's oral lectures. Therefore, I
              > never quote it as "Niohiren said"...although some do.
              > > >
              > > > That being said, I find it reinforces my concept of Nichiren's
              > intent.
              > > >
              > > > It is true that there is less "Hongaku" teaching in the
              > authenticated Gosho...and yet the very basis of Nichiren's writings lie
              > in the concept of "original enlightenment".
              > > >
              > >
              > > There is some material from ddb below. I have no idea how well it will
              > format.
              > >
              > > It seems to me there are advantages and perils to both viewpoints. The
              > former can lead to rigidity and intolerance. The latter can lead to sort
              > of a valueless, self indulgent cynicism.
              > >
              > > Or I could be way off base here. I am just speculating and grown
              > rather comfortable with uncertainty.
              > >
              > > I was wondering if there are any parallels to the differences between
              > modernism and postmodernism; which btw, I can not wrap my brain around.
              > >
              > > I was also thinking about shikaku and and hongaku in relation to
              > > 境智冥合 kyochi myogo. Kyo 境 here refers to the
              > object of cognition. I think the sanskrit word is vishaya.In this caee,
              > I think it refers to Objective Wisdom or Myo 明 (vidya); the
              > Dharma presented as a revealed object perceived by the senses. So the
              > object of worship might represent shigaku, the attained awakening.
              > >
              > > Chi 智 is jnana; which mean subjective knowledge, cognition,
              > awareness. If the object of cognition is an attainment of awakening --
              > such as a statue of the Buddha or some words written on paper explaining
              > or depicting the Dharma ; then the subjective 'remembers' it is
              > enlightened and has always been enlightened; hence hongaku.
              > >
              > > ????
              > >
              > > The advantage of shikaku thought is we have a reliable model of what
              > awakening should look like. The peril might be the notion that some some
              > specific objective form of attained awakening or wisdom is the one and
              > only. Therefore, no one else can really find it for themselves? Also, if
              > we cling too tightly to one form, that can lead to the errors of
              > perpetualism, dogmatism. and absolutism; which can yield rigidity,
              > intolerance. and puffed up claims of a monopoly on the gate to
              > salvation.
              > >
              > > The obvious advantage of hongaku thought is that all living beings
              > have the potential to awaken right now. The peril might be the notion
              > that we are already awake, so there is no need to cultivate or follow
              > any rules. This can lead to nihilism and self indulgence.
              > >
              > > The resolution is myogo 冥合 = unite, match perfectly. The
              > distinction between subject and is let go / abandoned, the fusion is
              > neither subject nor object.
              > >
              > > We still need an objective model, but we can also be flexible.
              > >
              > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > >
              > > 本覚 hongaku
              > >
              > > Basic Meaning: original enlightenment
              > >
              > > Senses:
              > > Also rendered as innate enlightenment and intrinsic enlightenment. The
              > possession by sentient beings of enlightenment as their basic nature,
              > which means that enlightenment is not something to be obtained
              > externally, as a distant goal, or as part of a gradual, purifying
              > process, but exists in full reality here in the present moment, and
              > therefore sentient beings need only to awaken to it. This is a concept
              > expressed commonly in scriptural works of East Asian provenance, such as
              > the Awakening of Faith 起信論 and the Sutra of Perfect
              > Enlightenment åœ"覺ç¶". It is due to this East Asian origin that
              > there are no direct Indic terms indicated as sources for the concept,
              > which in turn offers support to the argument for the East Asian
              > provenance of such texts. It is in the Awakening of Faith in particular
              > where the background of the doctrine is developed in detail, where it is
              > explained in contrast to 'initial (actualized) enlightenment'
              > 始覺, as transcending the dualistic opposition of enlightenment
              > 覺 vs. nonenlightenment 不覺. See T 1666.32.576b14. [cmuller]
              > >
              > > Original bodhi, i. e. 'enlightenment', awareness, knowledge, or
              > wisdom, as contrasted with 始覺 initial knowledge, that is
              > 'enlightenment a priori is contrasted with enlightenment a posteriori'.
              > Suzuki, Awakening of Faith, P. 62. The reference is to universal mind
              > 衆ç"Ÿä¹‹å¿ƒé«", which is conceived as pure and intelligent,
              > with 始覺 as active intelligence. It is considered as the
              > Buddha-dharmakāya, or as it might perhaps be termed, the
              > fundamental mind. Nevertheless in action from the first it was
              > influenced by its antithesis 無明 ignorance, the opposite of
              > awareness, or true knowledge. See 起信論 and 仁王ç¶",
              > 中. There are two kinds of 本覺, one which is unconditioned,
              > and never sullied by ignorance and delusion, the other which is
              > conditioned and subject to ignorance. In original enlightenment is
              > implied potential enlightenment in each being. [cmuller; source(s):
              > Soothill]
              > > http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?q=%E6%9C%AC%E8%A6%BA
              > >
              > >
              > > 始覺 shikaku
              > >
              > > Basic Meaning: initial enlightenment
              > >
              > > Senses:
              > > The first phenomenal actualization of enlightenment in this lifetime,
              > as contrasted to innate enlightenment 本覺 (or 'original
              > enlightenment,' 'intrinsic enlightenment,' etc.) which is the basic
              > Buddha-nature of sentient beings. The concepts of initial enlightenment
              > and original enlightenment are a primary topic of discussion in the
              > Awakening of Mahāyāna Faith 起信論 at T 1666.32.576b14.
              > >
              > > Initial enlightenment arises from the inner perfuming 薰 of the
              > mind and from external teaching. Original enlightenment contains the
              > four values adopted and made transcendent by the
              > Nirvāṇa-sūtra, viz. constancy 常, bliss 樂,
              > self-stability æˆ`, and purity æ·¨. These are acquired through
              > the process of enlightenment
              > >
              > http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-ddb.pl?59.xml+id%28%27b59cb-89b\
              > a%27%29
              > >
              >
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