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Re: Nichiren Buddhism or Ikeda Buddhism?

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  • chris.francis63
    Great post For more on this by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, see Faith in Awakening http://www.tricycle.com/feature/faith-awakening?page=0,0&offer=dharma ... SNIP
    Message 1 of 25 , May 31, 2010
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      Great post
      For more on this by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, see 'Faith in Awakening'
      http://www.tricycle.com/feature/faith-awakening?page=0,0&offer=dharma

      --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rrobinrb2000@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "tsingtao55" <tsingtao55@> wrote
      SNIP
      > I guess each person has no choice but to deal with our own samvega; we must find our own prasada.
    • steve_is_a_buddha
      Tsing Grim, grim, grim. In 20 years time when PI is no longer with us, his guidances will be held in the same regard as Mao s little red book is in present
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 1, 2010
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        Tsing

        Grim, grim, grim. In 20 years time when PI is no longer with us, his guidances will be held in the same regard as Mao's little red book is in present day China. The problem is, PI is just not at the level that his admirers try to depict him. He is no more than a rather unoriginal purveyor of pretty bland statements. And moreover, there are many previous people in SGI who were vastly more original than him (Tsuji, Izumi, and Dr Obo or whatever his name was).

        I am sooooooo bored of the mentor disciple relationship!

        Steve

        --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "tsingtao55" <tsingtao55@...> wrote:
        >
        > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
        >
        > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
        >
        > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
        >
        > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
        >
        > And
        >
        > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
        >
        > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
        >
        > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
        >
        > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
        >
      • andyhanlen2000
        tsingtao55 wrote:
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 1, 2010
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          "tsingtao55" wrote:

          << Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."

          We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed. >>

          I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.

          Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.

          Cheers!

          Andy







          >
          > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
          >
          > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
          >
          > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
          >
          > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
          >
          > And
          >
          > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
          >
          > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
          >
          > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
          >
          > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
          >
        • djgropp
          When did you quit chanting daimoku t a Gohonzon?
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 1, 2010
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            When did you quit chanting daimoku t a Gohonzon?

            --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "steve_is_a_buddha" <steve_is_a_buddha@...> wrote:
            >
            > Tsing
            >
            > Grim, grim, grim. In 20 years time when PI is no longer with us, his guidances will be held in the same regard as Mao's little red book is in present day China. The problem is, PI is just not at the level that his admirers try to depict him. He is no more than a rather unoriginal purveyor of pretty bland statements. And moreover, there are many previous people in SGI who were vastly more original than him (Tsuji, Izumi, and Dr Obo or whatever his name was).
            >
            > I am sooooooo bored of the mentor disciple relationship!
            >
            > Steve
            >
            > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "tsingtao55" <tsingtao55@> wrote:
            > >
            > > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
            > >
            > > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
            > >
            > > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
            > >
            > > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
            > >
            > > And
            > >
            > > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
            > >
            > > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
            > >
            > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
            > >
            > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
            > >
            >
          • djgropp
            Nichiren Buddhisma is accomplishing nothing outside Soka Gakkai.
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 1, 2010
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              "Nichiren Buddhisma" is accomplishing nothing outside Soka Gakkai.





              --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@...> wrote:
              >
              > "tsingtao55" wrote:
              >
              > << Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
              >
              > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed. >>
              >
              > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
              >
              > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
              >
              > Cheers!
              >
              > Andy
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
              > >
              > > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
              > >
              > > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
              > >
              > > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
              > >
              > > And
              > >
              > > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
              > >
              > > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
              > >
              > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
              > >
              > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
              > >
              >
            • William
              Top Post: ... May I differ on this, Andy? As one of those folks {who} tendend to object...have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet ... I have not been
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 1, 2010
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                Top Post:

                "Andy wrote:

                > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                >
                > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.

                May I differ on this, Andy?

                As one of "those folks {who} tendend to object...have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet"...

                I have not been chased out, and I certainly have not kept quiet.I have been a diligent and often obnoxious crtic, but I also have tried to comprehend Nichiren's intent.

                I respect Mr. Ikeda, and intend to continue my status as a disciple of Nichiren. The desire to honor and protect a mentor is not an automatic designation as cultist.

                Makiguchi made it clear..."rely on the law, not the person" is "the greatest guidence Buddhism has to offer humankind".

                My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.

                But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders,wether simple or profound.

                I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings.

                The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion.

                My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.

                I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism.

                David



                --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@...> wrote:
                >
                > "tsingtao55" wrote:
                >
                > << Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                >
                > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed. >>
                >
                > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                >
                > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                >
                > Cheers!
                >
                > Andy
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >
                > > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
                > >
                > > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
                > >
                > > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
                > >
                > > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
                > >
                > > And
                > >
                > > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
                > >
                > > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                > >
                > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                > >
                > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
                > >
                >
              • andyhanlen2000
                Dave wrote: LOL! Of course you may, and most welcome, always!
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 2, 2010
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                  Dave wrote:

                  << May I differ on this, Andy? >>

                  LOL! Of course you may, and most welcome, always!

                  << My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.

                  But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders, wether simple or profound.

                  I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings. >>

                  I do understand your position, David, and I have no real criticism of it, other than to point out the obvious: Mr. Ikeda fully endorses what's happening, and has said so many times, clearly and explicitly. He insists on the "master/disciple as essence of the Lotus Sutra" nonsense, and his minions build on that.

                  Even so, you see the duplicity and choose to rise above it, in the hope that over time it will evolve and change into something honest and authentic. I happen to disagree, as I believe that Ikedaism is there to stay in your organization, which is one of the main reasons I left it.

                  << The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion. >>

                  I am not confused. The Japanese run the SGI, and always will, and that culture will not change. Therefore, the SGI will not change. That's all I'm saying.

                  << My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.

                  I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism. >>

                  I agree, and I would not say that of you, David, but you are, as you say, peripheral. Your impact on the direction that the SGI-USA is going is negligible. Sorry to say that so bluntly, but that is my belief, based on my own experience and observations.

                  Cheers!

                  Andy



                  --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "William" <gaydave53@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Top Post:
                  >
                  > "Andy wrote:
                  >
                  > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                  > >
                  > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                  >
                  > May I differ on this, Andy?
                  >
                  > As one of "those folks {who} tendend to object...have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet"...
                  >
                  > I have not been chased out, and I certainly have not kept quiet.I have been a diligent and often obnoxious crtic, but I also have tried to comprehend Nichiren's intent.
                  >
                  > I respect Mr. Ikeda, and intend to continue my status as a disciple of Nichiren. The desire to honor and protect a mentor is not an automatic designation as cultist.
                  >
                  > Makiguchi made it clear..."rely on the law, not the person" is "the greatest guidence Buddhism has to offer humankind".
                  >
                  > My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.
                  >
                  > But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders,wether simple or profound.
                  >
                  > I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings.
                  >
                  > The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion.
                  >
                  > My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.
                  >
                  > I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism.
                  >
                  > David
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > "tsingtao55" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > << Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                  > >
                  > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed. >>
                  > >
                  > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                  > >
                  > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers!
                  > >
                  > > Andy
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
                  > > >
                  > > > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
                  > > >
                  > > > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
                  > > >
                  > > > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
                  > > >
                  > > > And
                  > > >
                  > > > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
                  > > >
                  > > > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                  > > >
                  > > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                  > > >
                  > > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • wkallander
                  I wish you d commented a bit more on that article rather than merely posting the link. But that said, the article is awesome, love it. This polarization of
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 2, 2010
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                    I wish you'd commented a bit more on that article rather than merely posting the link. But that said, the article is awesome, love it. This polarization of faith vs. empiricism is, I think, the cause of much strain within Buddhist sanghas. Those that are able to accommodate both equally stand to gain much insight from the mutual tension between the two, IMO.


                    --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, chris.francis63 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Great post
                    > For more on this by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, see 'Faith in Awakening'
                    > http://www.tricycle.com/feature/faith-awakening?page=0,0&offer=dharma
                    >
                    > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rrobinrb2000@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "tsingtao55" <tsingtao55@> wrote
                    > SNIP
                    > > I guess each person has no choice but to deal with our own samvega; we must find our own prasada.
                    >
                  • wkallander
                    ... In reading this, the thought occurred to me that the latter (greatness of the Gohonzon) is probably no more correct (Buddhismly-speaking) than the former
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 2, 2010
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                      --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "tsingtao55" <tsingtao55@...> wrote:
                      > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                      >
                      > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
                      >

                      In reading this, the thought occurred to me that the latter (greatness of the Gohonzon) is probably no more "correct" (Buddhismly-speaking) than the former (greatness of the mentor stuff). Revealing the power within our own lives to direct our actions, to manifest our Buddhahood would have been a better choice of words, IMO.

                      Both mentor and mandala are just tools. Or maybe symbols is a less objectionable phrasing. But either way, the real "power" to be revealed is not external.
                    • Rob
                      ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes. That is a good read. I need to read through it a few more times. I have been telling myself, for a umber of years
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 3, 2010
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                        --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "wkallander" <wkallander@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I wish you'd commented a bit more on that article rather than merely posting the link. But that said, the article is awesome, love it. This polarization of faith vs. empiricism is, I think, the cause of much strain within Buddhist sanghas. Those that are able to accommodate both equally stand to gain much insight from the mutual tension between the two, IMO.

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                        Yes. That is a good read. I need to read through it a few more times. I have been telling myself, for a umber of years now, that is takes more faith to tolerate ambiguity, that to believe what I do not yet understand. I have trust that the bull elephant is in here somewhere {faith / shraddha}, I still have to know it directly {empiricism / jnana / gnosis}.

                        Also, I always enjoy Thanissaro's take on how western Buddhists like myself reason away the parts of the Buddha's teachings that give us trouble {like moral causality & rebirth}. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as we are honest about it, and do not cling to fixed views. My solution is to hold tentative views, with a mind t6oward correcting them.

                        r

                        Photos & Playlists
                        http://artsense-robin.blogspot.com/

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                        Faith in Awakening

                        Are faith and empiricism compatible? For Thanissaro Bhikkhu, they are inseparable components of an authentic Buddhist practice.

                        http://www.tricycle.com/feature/faith-awakening?page=0,0&offer=dharma

                        http://preview.tinyurl.com/2do6bck

                        >
                        >
                        > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, chris.francis63 <no_reply@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Great post
                        > > For more on this by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, see 'Faith in Awakening'
                        > > http://www.tricycle.com/feature/faith-awakening?page=0,0&offer=dharma
                        > >
                      • verrytesty
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 3, 2010
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                          << Both mentor and mandala are just tools.

                          There are 5 things that the brahmins prescribe for the performance of
                          merit, for accomplishing the wholesome. These are truth, asceticism,
                          celibacy, study, generosity. But Shakymuni explains that not one of
                          those who claim an absolute relation has said "I declare the result of
                          these 5 things having realized it myself with direct knowledge."

                          When conversing with the brahman student Subha, rather than speak in
                          terms of an absolute correlation between the 5 (do this gain merit and
                          be wholesome) Shakymuni says of these activities:

                          "Here a bhikkhu is a speaker of truth. Thinking, 'I am a speaker of
                          truth,' he gains inspiration in the meaning, gains inspiration in the
                          Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. It is that gladness
                          connected with the wholesome that I call equipment of the mind. Here,
                          student, a bhikkhu is an ascetic...one who is celibate...one who engages
                          in study...one who engages in generosity... Thus those five things that
                          the brahmins prescribe for the performance of merit, for accomplishing
                          the wholesome, I call equipment of the mind, that is, for developing a
                          mind that is without hostility and without ill will."


                          --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "wkallander"
                          <wkallander@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "tsingtao55" tsingtao55@
                          wrote:
                          > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but
                          revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire
                          world."
                          > >
                          > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess
                          things have changed.
                          > >
                          >
                          > In reading this, the thought occurred to me that the latter (greatness
                          of the Gohonzon) is probably no more "correct" (Buddhismly-speaking)
                          than the former (greatness of the mentor stuff). Revealing the power
                          within our own lives to direct our actions, to manifest our Buddhahood
                          would have been a better choice of words, IMO.
                          >
                          > Both mentor and mandala are just tools. Or maybe symbols is a less
                          objectionable phrasing. But either way, the real "power" to be revealed
                          is not external.
                          >
                        • Rob
                          ... I should qualify that. Jnana {pali nnana, knowing, gnosis, subjective knowledge} is probably not empirical in the western sense. That would be Vidya {pali
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 3, 2010
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                            >>>I have trust that the bull elephant is in here somewhere {faith / shraddha}, I still have to know it directly {empiricism / jnana / gnosis}.


                            I should qualify that. Jnana {pali nnana, knowing, gnosis, subjective knowledge} is probably not empirical in the western sense. That would be Vidya {pali vijja, objective wisdom, observable truth, science}.

                            Thanissaro alluded to 2 kinds of causality. There is the truth of observation; 'the validity [of which] has nothing to do with our actions ...'. That is the field of Vidya or Objective Wisdom. This covers the causality of Utu Niyama {inorganic processes}, Bija Nitama {genetics, biology}, and dharma Niyama {Laws of Physics}. It is also covers the part of Citta Niyama {Psycholgy} studied by Behaviorists, such as operant conditioning. The method there might be called objected empiricism, and it deals with what Kant called phenomena or objects of sensible cognition; things that have color, sound, aroma, flavor, texture, and shape.

                            There is also what he calls the 'truths of the will—include skills, relationships, business ventures, anything that requires your effort to make it real.' This gets into the area of Karma Niyama or Volitional Moral Causality. A cetana {motive, intention} does not have any qualities of sensible cognition. How does one measure hatred or kindness? We know the difference, but is that not subjective? Jnana {pali nnana, knowing, gnosis, subjective knowledge}. The method of understanding this, jnana, might be called subjective empiricism.

                            Can we prove, using western scientific method, that a volitional moral cause produces a like effect? Since karma carries over to the next life, that might be difficult. I think we can observe that a person who follows a moral path can change their life. In Buddhist terms, this would, I think, be a change a change in one's Samskara Skandha {volitional conditioning}. The results might be measurable via psychological testing, but the requires the cooperation of the subject being tested. Back in college, I wrote a paper about some Dolphins that deliberately failed intelligence tests; when a certain skeptical observer they did not like was present. When the skeptic left; they passed the tests easily.

                            Of course, Buddhism takes us into the field of the unconditioned; which is acausal, atemporal, and in-finite. Acausality would be the area of Citta Niyama currently studied by Parapsycholgy. It is includes topics like synchronicity, and paranormal powers, or mind over matter. The method of understanding here is Abhijna {Pali abhinna}. That is abhi = ab = just + hi = now + jna = to know. Abhi has a lot of different meaning in differing contexts; it is translated as above, about, over, special, higher, direct, to, towards, against, upon, facing. fearless ... The prefix ambi- {or amphi-} is a possible cognate. Maybe we could invent a word, ambignosis or amphignosis?

                            r



                            --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rrobinrb2000@...> wrote:

                            > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "wkallander" <wkallander@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I wish you'd commented a bit more on that article rather than merely posting the link. But that said, the article is awesome, love it. This polarization of faith vs. empiricism is, I think, the cause of much strain within Buddhist sanghas. Those that are able to accommodate both equally stand to gain much insight from the mutual tension between the two, IMO.
                            >
                            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
                            > Yes. That is a good read. I need to read through it a few more times. I have been telling myself, for a umber of years now, that is takes more faith to tolerate ambiguity, that to believe what I do not yet understand. I have trust that the bull elephant is in here somewhere {faith / shraddha}, I still have to know it directly {empiricism / jnana / gnosis}.

                            > Also, I always enjoy Thanissaro's take on how western Buddhists like myself reason away the parts of the Buddha's teachings that give us trouble {like moral causality & rebirth}. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as we are honest about it, and do not cling to fixed views. My solution is to hold tentative views, with a mind t6oward correcting them.
                            >
                            > r

                            >
                            > Photos & Playlists
                            > http://artsense-robin.blogspot.com/
                            >
                            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            >
                            > Faith in Awakening
                            >
                            > Are faith and empiricism compatible? For Thanissaro Bhikkhu, they are inseparable components of an authentic Buddhist practice.
                            >
                            > http://www.tricycle.com/feature/faith-awakening?page=0,0&offer=dharma
                            >
                            > http://preview.tinyurl.com/2do6bck
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, chris.francis63 <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Great post
                            > > > For more on this by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, see 'Faith in Awakening'
                            > > > http://www.tricycle.com/feature/faith-awakening?page=0,0&offer=dharma
                            > > >
                            >
                          • djgropp
                            That s been taught since I joined moore than 42 years ago. How old were you 42
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 3, 2010
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                              <<Mr. Ikeda fully endorses... "master/disciple as essence of the Lotus Sutra">>

                              That's been taught since I joined moore than 42 years ago. How old were you 42 years ago, Andy?

                              --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dave wrote:
                              >
                              > << May I differ on this, Andy? >>
                              >
                              > LOL! Of course you may, and most welcome, always!
                              >
                              > << My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.
                              >
                              > But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders, wether simple or profound.
                              >
                              > I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings. >>
                              >
                              > I do understand your position, David, and I have no real criticism of it, other than to point out the obvious: Mr. Ikeda fully endorses what's happening, and has said so many times, clearly and explicitly. He insists on the "master/disciple as essence of the Lotus Sutra" nonsense, and his minions build on that.
                              >
                              > Even so, you see the duplicity and choose to rise above it, in the hope that over time it will evolve and change into something honest and authentic. I happen to disagree, as I believe that Ikedaism is there to stay in your organization, which is one of the main reasons I left it.
                              >
                              > << The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion. >>
                              >
                              > I am not confused. The Japanese run the SGI, and always will, and that culture will not change. Therefore, the SGI will not change. That's all I'm saying.
                              >
                              > << My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.
                              >
                              > I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism. >>
                              >
                              > I agree, and I would not say that of you, David, but you are, as you say, peripheral. Your impact on the direction that the SGI-USA is going is negligible. Sorry to say that so bluntly, but that is my belief, based on my own experience and observations.
                              >
                              > Cheers!
                              >
                              > Andy
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "William" <gaydave53@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Top Post:
                              > >
                              > > "Andy wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                              > > >
                              > > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                              > >
                              > > May I differ on this, Andy?
                              > >
                              > > As one of "those folks {who} tendend to object...have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet"...
                              > >
                              > > I have not been chased out, and I certainly have not kept quiet.I have been a diligent and often obnoxious crtic, but I also have tried to comprehend Nichiren's intent.
                              > >
                              > > I respect Mr. Ikeda, and intend to continue my status as a disciple of Nichiren. The desire to honor and protect a mentor is not an automatic designation as cultist.
                              > >
                              > > Makiguchi made it clear..."rely on the law, not the person" is "the greatest guidence Buddhism has to offer humankind".
                              > >
                              > > My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.
                              > >
                              > > But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders,wether simple or profound.
                              > >
                              > > I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings.
                              > >
                              > > The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion.
                              > >
                              > > My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.
                              > >
                              > > I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism.
                              > >
                              > > David
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > "tsingtao55" wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > << Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                              > > >
                              > > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed. >>
                              > > >
                              > > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                              > > >
                              > > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                              > > >
                              > > > Cheers!
                              > > >
                              > > > Andy
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > And
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Brian
                              When did you stop beating your wife?
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 4, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                When did you stop beating your wife?

                                --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "djgropp" <djgropp@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > When did you quit chanting daimoku t a Gohonzon?
                                >
                                > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "steve_is_a_buddha" <steve_is_a_buddha@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Tsing
                                > >
                                > > Grim, grim, grim. In 20 years time when PI is no longer with us, his guidances will be held in the same regard as Mao's little red book is in present day China. The problem is, PI is just not at the level that his admirers try to depict him. He is no more than a rather unoriginal purveyor of pretty bland statements. And moreover, there are many previous people in SGI who were vastly more original than him (Tsuji, Izumi, and Dr Obo or whatever his name was).
                                > >
                                > > I am sooooooo bored of the mentor disciple relationship!
                                > >
                                > > Steve
                                > >
                                > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "tsingtao55" <tsingtao55@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
                                > > >
                                > > > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
                                > > >
                                > > > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
                                > > >
                                > > > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
                                > > >
                                > > > And
                                > > >
                                > > > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
                                > > >
                                > > > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                > > >
                                > > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                > > >
                                > > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Brian
                                Dave, what if they re no longer teaching Buddhism? Are you not concerned that your presence implies consent?
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jun 4, 2010
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                                  Dave, what if they're no longer teaching Buddhism? Are you not concerned that your presence implies consent?

                                  --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "William" <gaydave53@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Top Post:
                                  >
                                  > "Andy wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                                  > >
                                  > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                                  >
                                  > May I differ on this, Andy?
                                  >
                                  > As one of "those folks {who} tendend to object...have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet"...
                                  >
                                  > I have not been chased out, and I certainly have not kept quiet.I have been a diligent and often obnoxious crtic, but I also have tried to comprehend Nichiren's intent.
                                  >
                                  > I respect Mr. Ikeda, and intend to continue my status as a disciple of Nichiren. The desire to honor and protect a mentor is not an automatic designation as cultist.
                                  >
                                  > Makiguchi made it clear..."rely on the law, not the person" is "the greatest guidence Buddhism has to offer humankind".
                                  >
                                  > My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.
                                  >
                                  > But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders,wether simple or profound.
                                  >
                                  > I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings.
                                  >
                                  > The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion.
                                  >
                                  > My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.
                                  >
                                  > I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism.
                                  >
                                  > David
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > "tsingtao55" wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > << Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                  > >
                                  > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed. >>
                                  > >
                                  > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                                  > >
                                  > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                                  > >
                                  > > Cheers!
                                  > >
                                  > > Andy
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > And
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • William
                                  ... I think buddhism is still being taught by the SGI...and I make my concerns clear. But you have a point. It can be a head-spitting into seven pieces kind
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jun 4, 2010
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                                    "Brian" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dave, what if they're no longer teaching Buddhism? Are you not concerned that your presence implies consent?

                                    I think buddhism is still being taught by the SGI...and I make my concerns clear.

                                    But you have a point. It can be a "head-spitting into seven pieces" kind of disconnect to see the continuing propagation of Taisekiji myth combined with excessive focus by some on the person of the mentor.

                                    But I continue doing what I have to do.

                                    David
                                  • andyhanlen2000
                                    Don wrote: That s been taught since I joined moore than 42 years ago. How old
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jun 7, 2010
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                                      Don wrote:

                                      <<Mr. Ikeda fully endorses... "master/disciple as essence of the Lotus Sutra">>

                                      That's been taught since I joined moore than 42 years ago. How old were you 42 years ago, Andy? >>

                                      I was 17 in 1968. Why do you ask?

                                      Regarding the master/disciple stuff, yes it was there when I joined (37 years ago) and I don't doubt that it was there before that, but it was taught as one component of one's practice of faith. It was not presented as being THE essential component, however, and I do not recall any mention of it, way back then, as "the essence of the Lotus Sutra." Perhaps I missed it then.

                                      Then again, I was not nearly as interested in seeking authentic Buddhist materials when I joined, and pretty I much accepted the Nichiren Shoshu/Gakkai materials as they were presented. We were actually discouraged, at that time, from looking beyond those "approved" sources. It was later, in the 80s and beyond, that I started looking beyond them, and discovered the actual Lotus Sutra and other Buddhist core teachings. I have read three different translations of the Lotus Sutra now, Don, and I promise you that the master/disciple relationship is nowhere presented as "the essence of the Lotus Sutra." Check that for yourself, if you wish. It might be good for you to do a bit of exploration beyond the old Nichiren Shoshu/Gakkai material, and now the Ikeda/Gakkai material. Let me know what you find out.

                                      I will also point out that, beneath the surface and not as prominent, the Ikeda-as-Supreme-Master doctrine was present back then, but it was not pushed so strongly. Now, it is official doctrine, in your publications, endorsed by Mr. Ikeda. There's a huge increase in emphasis over the last ten or so years, to the extent that they have now come out of the closet with the fabrication that the M/D relationship is the "essence" of the LS.

                                      Anyway, anyone who cares to read the sources will see that it clearly is not.

                                      Cheers!

                                      Andy


                                      >
                                      > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Dave wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > << May I differ on this, Andy? >>
                                      > >
                                      > > LOL! Of course you may, and most welcome, always!
                                      > >
                                      > > << My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.
                                      > >
                                      > > But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders, wether simple or profound.
                                      > >
                                      > > I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings. >>
                                      > >
                                      > > I do understand your position, David, and I have no real criticism of it, other than to point out the obvious: Mr. Ikeda fully endorses what's happening, and has said so many times, clearly and explicitly. He insists on the "master/disciple as essence of the Lotus Sutra" nonsense, and his minions build on that.
                                      > >
                                      > > Even so, you see the duplicity and choose to rise above it, in the hope that over time it will evolve and change into something honest and authentic. I happen to disagree, as I believe that Ikedaism is there to stay in your organization, which is one of the main reasons I left it.
                                      > >
                                      > > << The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion. >>
                                      > >
                                      > > I am not confused. The Japanese run the SGI, and always will, and that culture will not change. Therefore, the SGI will not change. That's all I'm saying.
                                      > >
                                      > > << My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.
                                      > >
                                      > > I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism. >>
                                      > >
                                      > > I agree, and I would not say that of you, David, but you are, as you say, peripheral. Your impact on the direction that the SGI-USA is going is negligible. Sorry to say that so bluntly, but that is my belief, based on my own experience and observations.
                                      > >
                                      > > Cheers!
                                      > >
                                      > > Andy
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "William" <gaydave53@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Top Post:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "Andy wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > May I differ on this, Andy?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > As one of "those folks {who} tendend to object...have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet"...
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have not been chased out, and I certainly have not kept quiet.I have been a diligent and often obnoxious crtic, but I also have tried to comprehend Nichiren's intent.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I respect Mr. Ikeda, and intend to continue my status as a disciple of Nichiren. The desire to honor and protect a mentor is not an automatic designation as cultist.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Makiguchi made it clear..."rely on the law, not the person" is "the greatest guidence Buddhism has to offer humankind".
                                      > > >
                                      > > > My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders,wether simple or profound.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > David
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > "tsingtao55" wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > << Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed. >>
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Cheers!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Andy
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > And
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • djgropp
                                      There is no such concept, except in your imagination.
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jun 9, 2010
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                                        <<Ikeda-as-Supreme-Master doctrine>>

                                        There is no such concept, except in your imagination.






                                        --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Don wrote:
                                        >
                                        > <<Mr. Ikeda fully endorses... "master/disciple as essence of the Lotus Sutra">>
                                        >
                                        > That's been taught since I joined moore than 42 years ago. How old were you 42 years ago, Andy? >>
                                        >
                                        > I was 17 in 1968. Why do you ask?
                                        >
                                        > Regarding the master/disciple stuff, yes it was there when I joined (37 years ago) and I don't doubt that it was there before that, but it was taught as one component of one's practice of faith. It was not presented as being THE essential component, however, and I do not recall any mention of it, way back then, as "the essence of the Lotus Sutra." Perhaps I missed it then.
                                        >
                                        > Then again, I was not nearly as interested in seeking authentic Buddhist materials when I joined, and pretty I much accepted the Nichiren Shoshu/Gakkai materials as they were presented. We were actually discouraged, at that time, from looking beyond those "approved" sources. It was later, in the 80s and beyond, that I started looking beyond them, and discovered the actual Lotus Sutra and other Buddhist core teachings. I have read three different translations of the Lotus Sutra now, Don, and I promise you that the master/disciple relationship is nowhere presented as "the essence of the Lotus Sutra." Check that for yourself, if you wish. It might be good for you to do a bit of exploration beyond the old Nichiren Shoshu/Gakkai material, and now the Ikeda/Gakkai material. Let me know what you find out.
                                        >
                                        > I will also point out that, beneath the surface and not as prominent, the Ikeda-as-Supreme-Master doctrine was present back then, but it was not pushed so strongly. Now, it is official doctrine, in your publications, endorsed by Mr. Ikeda. There's a huge increase in emphasis over the last ten or so years, to the extent that they have now come out of the closet with the fabrication that the M/D relationship is the "essence" of the LS.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, anyone who cares to read the sources will see that it clearly is not.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers!
                                        >
                                        > Andy
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Dave wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > << May I differ on this, Andy? >>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > LOL! Of course you may, and most welcome, always!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > << My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders, wether simple or profound.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings. >>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I do understand your position, David, and I have no real criticism of it, other than to point out the obvious: Mr. Ikeda fully endorses what's happening, and has said so many times, clearly and explicitly. He insists on the "master/disciple as essence of the Lotus Sutra" nonsense, and his minions build on that.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Even so, you see the duplicity and choose to rise above it, in the hope that over time it will evolve and change into something honest and authentic. I happen to disagree, as I believe that Ikedaism is there to stay in your organization, which is one of the main reasons I left it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > << The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion. >>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I am not confused. The Japanese run the SGI, and always will, and that culture will not change. Therefore, the SGI will not change. That's all I'm saying.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > << My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism. >>
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I agree, and I would not say that of you, David, but you are, as you say, peripheral. Your impact on the direction that the SGI-USA is going is negligible. Sorry to say that so bluntly, but that is my belief, based on my own experience and observations.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Cheers!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Andy
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "William" <gaydave53@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Top Post:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > "Andy wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > May I differ on this, Andy?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > As one of "those folks {who} tendend to object...have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet"...
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I have not been chased out, and I certainly have not kept quiet.I have been a diligent and often obnoxious crtic, but I also have tried to comprehend Nichiren's intent.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I respect Mr. Ikeda, and intend to continue my status as a disciple of Nichiren. The desire to honor and protect a mentor is not an automatic designation as cultist.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Makiguchi made it clear..."rely on the law, not the person" is "the greatest guidence Buddhism has to offer humankind".
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > My status as a supporter of the SGI has been challenged by these issues, especially as modified by the members.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > But I remain committed in the quest...not as expressed by individuals, but as expressed in writings of the founders,wether simple or profound.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I represent an engaged periphery, skeptics who don't buy into personalities but accept that much of that rhetoric comes from subordinates. I don't see much of it in Ikeda's authentic writings.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The gulf between Japanese and American cultures adds to the confusion.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > My determination is to stand with the SGI and witness our evolution as long as I live.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I may be distinctly unwelcome in some SGI circles...but no one can say I've bought into anything other than Nichiren Buddhism.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > David
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@> wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > "tsingtao55" wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > << Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed. >>
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I think that the SGI has reached an internal comfort level such that they no longer see a need to obfuscate on this. In the past there were folks who bought into Mr. Ikeda's admonitions (from Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra) to revere the Law and not the Person, and so forth. Those folks tended to object when rhetoric such as you describe below was too prominent.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Now, most of those folks have been chased out, or are just keeping quiet, so there's no need to pretend any more, and Ikedaism is indeed what's being taught. Nichiren Buddhists can apply elsewhere.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Cheers!
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Andy
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > In the "Seize the Day" Section of the May 28 World Tribune the following were written:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > In the article regarding the YMD flag,
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > "The shield represents the vow one makes to protect the mentor, whose teachings enable all people to attain enlightenment."
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > So now it is Mr Ikeda's teachings and not Shakyamuni's or Nichiren's teachings that enable one to attain enlightenment.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > And
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > "With this flag, the young men of the SGI-USA vow to always return to the rich soil of our mentor President Ikeda's eternal teachings..."
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > In the article regarding the YWD flag, "...the American Lotus represents our vow as SGI-USA young women to enable Buddhist humanism to blossom in America, and to reveal the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Nothing wrong with Buddhist humanism blossoming in America, but revealing "the greatness of our mentor, President Ikeda, to the entire world."
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > We used to be told to reveal the greatness of the Gohonzon. I guess things have changed.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Vanya
                                        ... Mentor/Disciple as the essence of the Lotus Sutra was not taught in the 1960s or 1970s because the Lotus Sutra was not taught and we were discouraged from
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jun 14, 2010
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                                          --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Don wrote:
                                          >
                                          > <<Mr. Ikeda fully endorses... "master/disciple as essence of the Lotus Sutra">>
                                          >
                                          > That's been taught since I joined moore than 42 years ago. How old were you 42 years ago, Andy? >>
                                          >
                                          > I was 17 in 1968. Why do you ask?
                                          >
                                          > Regarding the master/disciple stuff, yes it was there when I joined (37 years ago) and I don't doubt that it was there before that, but it was taught as one component of one's practice of faith. It was not presented as being THE essential component, however, and I do not recall any mention of it, way back then, as "the essence of the Lotus Sutra." Perhaps I missed it then.
                                          >
                                          >

                                          Mentor/Disciple as the essence of the Lotus Sutra was not taught in the 1960s or 1970s because the Lotus Sutra was not taught and we were discouraged from studying it (at least in the U.S.).

                                          Also, Ikeda as Master/Mentor has been taught since he became President in 1960. It was much more prevalent in Japan than in the U.S. and lead, in part, to the troubles with Nichiren Shoshu in 1977-1979. Mr. Williams, bless his heart, for better or worse tried to shield American members from all that.
                                        • zoezach238
                                          Thank you for clarifying that. When I joined SGI in 1983, the mentor/disciple concept was taught, but it was only one of many (seemlngly equally important)
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jun 19, 2010
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                                            Thank you for clarifying that. When I joined SGI in 1983, the mentor/disciple concept was taught, but it was only one of many (seemlngly equally important) concepts- like "oneness of life and the environment", "one in mind, many in body", "poison into medicine", and so forth.

                                            When I pick up publications now, however, the mentor/disciple concept seems to be very prominent.

                                            To be honest, I thought i understood the concept, but now I really do not. I get Makiguchi-Toda; Toda-Ikeda. I do not get Ikeda-millions of members. I thought a main criteria of a mentor/disciple relationship to be the disciple and the mentor actually knowing each other.

                                            Linda


                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Mentor/Disciple as the essence of the Lotus Sutra was not taught in the 1960s or 1970s because the Lotus Sutra was not taught and we were discouraged from studying it (at least in the U.S.).
                                            >
                                            > Also, Ikeda as Master/Mentor has been taught since he became President in 1960. It was much more prevalent in Japan than in the U.S. and lead, in part, to the troubles with Nichiren Shoshu in 1977-1979. Mr. Williams, bless his heart, for better or worse tried to shield American members from all that.
                                            >
                                          • Rob
                                            ... When I joined in 1972, a major concept taught was that a change in the destiny of a single person could change the destiny of the world. We thought that
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jun 19, 2010
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                                              --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "zoezach238" <zoezach238@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Thank you for clarifying that. When I joined SGI in 1983, the mentor/disciple concept was taught, but it was only one of many (seemlngly equally important) concepts- like "oneness of life and the environment", "one in mind, many in body", "poison into medicine", and so forth.
                                              >
                                              > When I pick up publications now, however, the mentor/disciple concept seems to be very prominent.
                                              >
                                              > To be honest, I thought i understood the concept, but now I really do not. I get Makiguchi-Toda; Toda-Ikeda. I do not get Ikeda-millions of members. I thought a main criteria of a mentor/disciple relationship to be the disciple and the mentor actually knowing each other.
                                              >
                                              > Linda
                                              >

                                              When I joined in 1972, a major concept taught was that a change in the destiny of a single person could change the destiny of the world. We thought that meant us. Ikeda talked about hoe each of us should be like a President Ikeda. We thought that meant developing our own insight. We completely missed his point. The single person was always Ikeda and no one else. The other comment was simply about his desire to replicate himself through others; to get us to serve his interests at the expense of our own.

                                              robin
                                            • Mick
                                              ... I suspect that Japanese members understood that it was about Ikeda all along. Sometimes they would say something about him which would make your jaw drop,
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jun 20, 2010
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                                                --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rrobinrb2000@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "zoezach238" <zoezach238@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Thank you for clarifying that. When I joined SGI in 1983, the mentor/disciple concept was taught, but it was only one of many (seemlngly equally important) concepts- like "oneness of life and the environment", "one in mind, many in body", "poison into medicine", and so forth.
                                                > >
                                                > > When I pick up publications now, however, the mentor/disciple concept seems to be very prominent.
                                                > >
                                                > > To be honest, I thought i understood the concept, but now I really do not. I get Makiguchi-Toda; Toda-Ikeda. I do not get Ikeda-millions of members. I thought a main criteria of a mentor/disciple relationship to be the disciple and the mentor actually knowing each other.
                                                > >
                                                > > Linda
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > When I joined in 1972, a major concept taught was that a change in the destiny of a single person could change the destiny of the world. We thought that meant us. Ikeda talked about hoe each of us should be like a President Ikeda. We thought that meant developing our own insight. We completely missed his point. The single person was always Ikeda and no one else. The other comment was simply about his desire to replicate himself through others; to get us to serve his interests at the expense of our own.
                                                >
                                                > robin
                                                >

                                                I suspect that Japanese members understood that it was about
                                                Ikeda all along. Sometimes they would say something about him
                                                which would make your jaw drop, but if you asked them to
                                                explain they would give you the story about how we all should
                                                become like Ikeda. Just one of those things you don't talk to
                                                the Americans about because they wouldn't get it.

                                                Mick
                                              • Rob
                                                ... Our devil nature causes us to feel mistrust and envy. This reminds me of the doctrine of Transmission to a Single Person. Dr. Stone discusses that, I think
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jun 20, 2010
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                                                  --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Mick" <mickg1@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <rrobinrb2000@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "zoezach238" <zoezach238@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Thank you for clarifying that. When I joined SGI in 1983, the mentor/disciple concept was taught, but it was only one of many (seemlngly equally important) concepts- like "oneness of life and the environment", "one in mind, many in body", "poison into medicine", and so forth.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > When I pick up publications now, however, the mentor/disciple concept seems to be very prominent.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > To be honest, I thought i understood the concept, but now I really do not. I get Makiguchi-Toda; Toda-Ikeda. I do not get Ikeda-millions of members. I thought a main criteria of a mentor/disciple relationship to be the disciple and the mentor actually knowing each other.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Linda
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > When I joined in 1972, a major concept taught was that a change in the destiny of a single person could change the destiny of the world. We thought that meant us. Ikeda talked about hoe each of us should be like a President Ikeda. We thought that meant developing our own insight. We completely missed his point. The single person was always Ikeda and no one else. The other comment was simply about his desire to replicate himself through others; to get us to serve his interests at the expense of our own.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > robin
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > I suspect that Japanese members understood that it was about
                                                  > Ikeda all along. Sometimes they would say something about him
                                                  > which would make your jaw drop, but if you asked them to
                                                  > explain they would give you the story about how we all should
                                                  > become like Ikeda. Just one of those things you don't talk to
                                                  > the Americans about because they wouldn't get it.
                                                  >
                                                  > Mick
                                                  >
                                                  Our devil nature causes us to feel mistrust and envy.

                                                  This reminds me of the doctrine of Transmission to a Single Person. Dr. Stone discusses that, I think in Secret Transmissions of the Hokke Shu. This is found in the oral teachings of Nikko's, and, I think. Nichiro and Nissho's lineages too. Maybe all of them.

                                                  It is generally just typical recondite and/or underground 'stuff.' Certain things, for various reasons, could only be discussed inside a 'cone of silence.' The single person was one's contact, or those with the secret password. The Taisekiji Sect, of which SGI is, of course, an off-shoot, takes it literally to mean an exclusive transmission from Nichiren to Nikko to Nichimoku and so on.

                                                  Both the Buddha and Nichiren specifically rejected esoteric teachings. However, in the case of the Buddha, there are certain things that are left 'undeclared.' Also, I am told that the Theravada Vinaya prohibits discussing one's 'attainments' with others. So there is some foundation for hermetic style teachings. I guess if there were / are private teachings; then this would not be announced publicly? One thing, 'attainments' refers to skills that are considered superfluous to waking up. Everything needed to awaken is found in public teachings.

                                                  In the case of the Nichiren schools, there was the civil war era during which Hokke Shu factions aligned with opposing political factions. Then, later on, Buddhism fell under regulation of the Government. The private teachings might be from those eras.

                                                  Also, some B+ {authenticity rating} Gosho allude to a private transmission of the Lotus Sutra Daimoku & Honzon prior to Nichiren.
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