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Re: Planck's Constant: What are light quanta?

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  • markviverson@sbcglobal.net
    Modern accelerators are used as advanced light sources. Once the electromagnetic wave leaves the vacuum and interacts with matter, it may be absorbed and
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 30, 2007
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      Modern accelerators are used as advanced light sources. Once the
      electromagnetic wave leaves the vacuum and interacts with matter, it
      may be absorbed and then emitted at the same energy or at a lower
      energy via a combination of radiative and nonradiative processes.
      Planck thought his constant was a property of matter based on an
      idealized blackbody radiator; Einstein thought in 1905 discrete quanta
      were a property of light. Later Einstein bemoaned not understanding
      photons further and searched for a unified field theory. Bohr's model
      described hydrogen and quantum mechanics was unable to find the proper
      potential energies to explain atoms beyond helium. Incidentally, the
      Copenhagen interpretation may have been a "red herring" which led
      German scientist Heisenberg to his uncertainty principle while Bohr
      escaped occupied Denmark to warn the US of the Curies 1930's Nobel
      Prize and later work by Hahn/Meitner.

      Based on different boundary conditions and classical wave mechanics,
      Randall Mills has described atoms through n=20 and many molecules. For
      all these atoms and molecules, Planck's constant is a fixed absolute
      scale factor which converts the frequency of the incoming wave into an
      atomic or molecular energy. This understanding of Planck's scale
      factor constant extends beyond our understanding of a blackbody
      radiator and hydrogen to perhaps in the near future to the entire
      periodic table. I don't know why any energy scale factor should
      inherently remain the same for different atoms and molecules but it
      does.

      Advanced light sources are also called advanced "photon" sources.
      Apparently these advanced light sources can create many frequencies or
      wavelengths at high intensity for which there is no absorption by
      matter. I am just suggesting that photons correspond to energies for
      which atomic and molecular matter absorbs discretely rather than
      continuously like an idealized blackbody radiator. "Photon" light
      sources are only useful when we know the set of frequencies for which
      to tune the incoming electromagetic wave.


      -- In SCQM@yahoogroups.com, "john_e_barchak" <john_e_barchak@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Mark
      > You state:
      > "my gut feel suggests that photons may just represent
      > the subset of all continuous electromagnetic frequencies which
      > specifically correspond to excited states of matter... and no more."
      >
      > Could you elaborate this statement? I'm not sure what you are
      > driving at.
      >
      > Best - John B.
      >
      > --- In SCQM@yahoogroups.com, "markviverson@" <markviverson@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi John,
      > >
      > > Thanks for your interest.
      > >
      > > The ultraviolet
      > > catastrophe(://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_catastrophe)
      > > is based on Erenfest's equal partition of energy which in turn is
      > > based on Botzmann's statistical analysis because atoms were thought
      > > too small to describe. Apparently, you think the theoretical
      > > ultraviolet catastrophe is avoided with discrete frequencies rather
      > > than the continuous frequencies of a "blackbody".
      > >
      > > Yet Dr. Mill's has a classical quantum mechanical theory with
      > discrete
      > > energy levels predicted for many atoms and molecules. The
      > assumption
      > > of an equal partition of energy may now be reexamined; many
      > > experimental boiling points might now be calculated, and radiation
      > > from a non blackbody radiator now seems possible with fractional
      > > energy levels deep into the ultraviolet.
      > >
      > > Planck's law(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_law#_note-
      > planck)
      > > was derived from entropy(Boltzman) and not from quantum mechanics.
      > > Please not the following:
      > > 1) Plank's original paper is online.
      > > 2) A historical correction is in this wikipedia article.
      > > 3) A similar prose historical correction is in Issacson's book on
      > > Einstein. In addition Erhenfest was viewed as a cynic by most of his
      > > associates including Einstein.
      > >
      > > Yes Plank's constant h fits a curve for blackbody emission and the
      > > Wien displacement law without h shows how the spectral peak moves
      > > towards shorter wavelengths as the temperature increases. The
      > > equation derived by Planck describes blackbody emission over
      > > continuous frequencies rather than discrete. Discrete spectra have
      > > lines present or missing at specific wavelengths.
      > >
      > > Having a fitting constant h for a blackbody radiation curve is not
      > the
      > > same as saying that all atoms which radiate or absorb
      > electromagnetic
      > > energy at specific frequencies through orbit spheres using the same
      > > universal energy scale factor h. Moreover electromagnetic energies
      > > have three experimental energy ranges: electronic transitions,
      > > vibrational transitions, and rotational transitions.
      > >
      > > This simply suggests that the frequency of the light must match the
      > > atomic or molecular energy levels using an atomic energy scale
      > factor
      > > h. Anotherwords, my gut feel suggests that photons may just
      > represent
      > > the subset of all continuous electromagnetic frequencies which
      > > specifically correspond to excited states of matter... and no
      > more.
      > >
      > > I look forward to discussing this further.
      > >
      > > Kind regards,
      > >
      > > Mark
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In SCQM@yahoogroups.com, "john_e_barchak" <john_e_barchak@>
      > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Mark
      > > > The purpose of Planck's constant was to eliminate the ultraviolet
      > > > catastophe by making the spectrum discrete rather than
      > continuous.
      > > > As long as the spectrum frequencies are separated by some
      > discrete
      > > > value, then this avoids the ultraviolet catastophe.
      > > > Best - John B.
      > > >
      > > > --- In SCQM@yahoogroups.com, "markviverson@" <markviverson@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > As mentioned in the original posts, I have been more interested
      > in
      > > > > Einstein's lack of understanding of light quanta despite his
      > > > defining
      > > > > quanta(1905) in the first place. Planck and others believed his
      > > > > constant was a property of matter and not as a property of the
      > > > > excitation light.
      > > > >
      > > > > If electromagnetic radiation acts on orbit spheres for various
      > > > atoms,
      > > > > molecules, and molecular chains, Planck's constant is just a
      > basic
      > > > > energy scale factor of matter and not an inherent property of
      > the
      > > > > radiation.
      > > > >
      > > > > It is surprising that numerous atoms and molecules have the same
      > > > > energy scale factor which suggests that Einstein was
      > right: "God
      > > > does
      > > > > not play dice." Yet Einstein did not have a unified field
      > theory to
      > > > > see a conceptual error or perhaps he did not completely
      > understand
      > > > the
      > > > > photoelectric effect paper where his first wife(Tesla's cousin)
      > made
      > > > > major contributions.
      > > > >
      > > > > CQM provides a unified theory. Again I open for discussion: "Is
      > > > > Planck's constant of as a property of matter as Planck thought
      > or is
      > > > > it a property of light as the Einstein's surmised?"
      > > > >
      > > > > Read the mentor of Einstein and Tesla: Mach! Confirm your own
      > > > > theories by comparison with experiments. Don't "shoot the
      > messenger"
      > > > > via controlling my civil freedom of expression.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • mystic606
      ... Hi Mark, I think you re right on track with that idea. In fact, Sir James Jeans about a hundred years ago found that the wavelength of a photon that is
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 14, 2007
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        --- In SCQM@yahoogroups.com, "markviverson@..." <markviverson@...> wrote:
        >
        > (much snipped)
        >
        > matter. I am just suggesting that photons correspond to energies for
        > which atomic and molecular matter absorbs discretely rather than
        > continuously like an idealized blackbody radiator. "Photon" light
        > sources are only useful when we know the set of frequencies for which
        > to tune the incoming electromagetic wave.

        Hi Mark,

        I think you're right on track with that idea. In fact, Sir James
        Jeans about a hundred years ago found that the wavelength of a photon
        that is either emitted or absorbed by an atom is a constant - that
        being several hundred times the diameter of the then conceived "orbit"
        of the electron.

        So it seems as if this is really a geometry problem. In other words,
        how does the movement of energies comprising a photon translate into
        the movement of energies comprising an electron orbit or "orbitsphere"
        at the time of emission or absorption. The process seems to be
        symmetric so that's a strong clue.

        Surely the correct model of such a process involves the Haus condition
        for radiation or it's converse. Or at least the principal of why
        something like the Haus condition should arise, don't you think?

        Philip
      • novel_compound
        bobb_bell, it s been nearly two years since you urged the moderator to reject my post for mentioning religion, but it still bugs me and I m compelled to get
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 14, 2009
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          bobb_bell, it's been nearly two years since you urged the moderator to reject my post for "mentioning religion," but it still bugs me and I'm compelled to get this off my chest.

          In fact, while your reply to me (message 446) mentioned religion, my reply to markviverson (message 445) did not. I simply stated my skepticsm that the first living organism on Earth could have spontaneously assembled itself. For all I know, it could have been assembled by a very clever robot named Clarabell.

          I want to thank moderator John Farrell for his tolerance during that incident.

          - DP

          Moderator's note: I do remember the incident but not the details (getting old). Although I consider myself an atheist I must agree with DP. After the theory of evolution , the synthesis of urea, and the production of amino acids in the Miller experiment (zap a mixture of ammonia, methane, water and so on; University of Chicago early 1950s) many thought the case was closed against the theists. However, in the same year that Miller published the results of his experiments Watson and Crick published their DNA structure. Almost overnight the attention turned from amino acids and proteins to DNA as the central aspect of life. The Miller experiment was repeated, many times, and no DNA bases were found. Since then many scientists have changed their mind as to which gases the early atmosphere contained and repeated the experiment--still no luck. I know that biologists and chemists have found that lipids do form "bubbles" and can contain chemicals. I know that a lot of research is going into how certain chemicals are formed and how they can organize themselves. I also know that even the simplest organism is extraordinary hard to make from scratch (to put it mildly!). At any rate, I take a wait and see attitude in these matters. After all, reality is stranger than fiction and we still have not determined from whence (and how) we came. As moderator, I consider the relevance of a post to SCP and even then there are limits (for example, some threads run out of steam and have to be ended). If bobb_bell and DP wish to continue this thread they will have to do it without SCP as an intermediary. Best regards to both bobb_bell and DP. I hope DP's chest feels better. John Farrell
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