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On LOVE.....

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  • Bob M.
    Without love you are a dead thing; and when the dead thing asks for love, it is still dead. Whereas, if your heart is full of love, then you never ask to be
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 6, 2007
      "Without love you are a dead thing; and when
      the dead thing asks for love, it is still dead.
      Whereas, if your heart is full of love, then
      you never ask to be loved, you never put out
      your begging bowl for someone to fill it. It
      is only the empty who ask to be filled, and an
      empty heart can never be filled by running after
      gurus or seeking love in a hundred other ways."

      (J. Krishnamurti - 'Think On These Things', pg. 236)
    • Bob M.
      I have often written about love. Many consider what I have written on this topic as artificial and utopian. And yet for me it is an inadequate mirror of an
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 6, 2007
        "I have often written about love. Many consider
        what I have written on this topic as artificial
        and utopian. And yet for me it is an inadequate
        mirror of an actuality." (Karl Jaspers)

        - - - - - -

        Oh how I know the feeling, but, never-the-less,
        one who has been granted the gift of love must
        keep on writing, keep on talking, and keep on
        sharing it with others, dark and loveless as
        these final days are.

        Bob M.
      • Bob M.
        A society without love is like a land without rivers, it is as a desert; but where there are rivers the land is rich, it has abundance, it has beauty. Most of
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 7, 2007
          "A society without love is like a land without
          rivers, it is as a desert; but where there are
          rivers the land is rich, it has abundance, it
          has beauty. Most of us grow up without love and
          that is why we have created a society as hideous
          as the people who live in it."

          (J. Krishnamurti - 'Think On These Things', pgs. 193-4)

          Bob M.
          _______________________________________________

          --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
          <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
          >
          > "Without love you are a dead thing; and when
          > the dead thing asks for love, it is still dead.
          > Whereas, if your heart is full of love, then
          > you never ask to be loved, you never put out
          > your begging bowl for someone to fill it. It
          > is only the empty who ask to be filled, and an
          > empty heart can never be filled by running after
          > gurus or seeking love in a hundred other ways."
          >
          > (J. Krishnamurti - 'Think On These Things', pg. 236)
        • Bob M.
          One day or other institutions will be needed in which people live and teach as I understand living and teaching: perhaps even chairs for the interpretation of
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 8, 2007
            "One day or other institutions will be needed
            in which people live and teach as I understand
            living and teaching: perhaps even chairs for the
            interpretation of Zarathustra will be established.
            But it would be a complete contradiction of myself
            if I expected ears 'and hands' for 'my' truths
            today, that no one today knows how to take from
            me, is not only comprehensible, it even seems
            to me right." (Nietzsche)

            Bob M.
          • Bob M.
            No such school exists anywhere presently, and under any guise, who s primary purpose and focus is to rekindle that dynamic Flame of Love and
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 8, 2007
              No such school exists anywhere presently, and
              under any guise, who's primary purpose and focus
              is to rekindle that dynamic 'Flame of Love' and
              'Free-Spiritedness' in those few in whom such a
              thing is at all possible. And until such a school
              is established, the universal darkness in the world
              shall continue on and on and become even darker,
              if such a thing were possible.

              Bob M.
              ____________________________________________

              --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
              <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
              >
              > "One day or other institutions will be needed
              > in which people live and teach as I understand
              > living and teaching: perhaps even chairs for the
              > interpretation of Zarathustra will be established.
              > But it would be a complete contradiction of myself
              > if I expected ears 'and hands' for 'my' truths
              > today, that no one today knows how to take from
              > me, is not only comprehensible, it even seems
              > to me right." (Nietzsche)
              >
              > Bob M.
              >
            • Bob M.
              Without the stimulus of love the organism cannot develop properly. The child that has not been adequately loved during the first half-dozen years of its life
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 10, 2007
                "Without the stimulus of love the organism
                cannot develop properly. The child that has
                not been adequately loved during the first
                half-dozen years of its life will be most
                seriously affected in that capacity which
                is of such great importance for human beings,
                namely, the capacity to relate oneself in a
                warm and engaging manner towards others. The
                child that has not been adequately loved is
                likely to grow up trained in the incapacity
                to love others. He is the 'cold fish' whose
                world is one-dimensional, arid, and virtually
                completely free of all emotional relationships
                or tenderness."

                (Ashley Montagu - 'The Cultured Man')

                Bob M.
              • Bob M.
                What is done out of Love always takes place beyond good and evil. (Nietzsche - BGE) Bob M.
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 11, 2007
                  "What is done out of Love always takes place
                  beyond good and evil." (Nietzsche - BGE)

                  Bob M.
                • Bob M.
                  If you love there is no need for discipline, is there? Love brings its own creative understanding, therefore there is no resistance, no conflict; but to love
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 12, 2007
                    "If you love there is no need for discipline, is
                    there? Love brings its own creative understanding,
                    therefore there is no resistance, no conflict; but
                    to love with such complete integration is possible
                    only when you feel deeply secure, completely at
                    home, especially while you are young."

                    (J. Krishnamurti - 'Think On These Things', pg. 112)

                    Bob M.
                  • Bob M.
                    Hi Peter. By we do you mean that you and I or everyone can come home again to ourselves? And while it s certainly important to look at and deal with our own
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 14, 2007
                      Hi Peter. By 'we' do you mean that you and I
                      or everyone can come home again to ourselves?

                      And while it's certainly important to look at
                      and deal with our own needs first as you say,
                      especially early on in the journey, I feel
                      eventually we must begin to focus also on the
                      needs of our fellows (or the greater good)
                      and act accordingly.

                      I too sense here that you feel we have a
                      'choice' in this whole matter which I find is
                      not quite the case, as it tends to imply making
                      rational decisions alone and without the
                      consideration of feelings, instincts, or deep
                      inner-yearnings. Krishnamurti's ideal of living
                      in a state of 'choiceless awareness' also comes
                      to mind here, Peter.

                      Take care,

                      Bob M.
                      ________________________________________________

                      --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                      <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Bob, I agree with integration coming from a deeply
                      > felt security. I think we can come home to ourselves
                      > at any stage in life, if we want to. The best way I
                      > know is by thinking what is best for ourselves in
                      > a kind, patient, attentive, loving, relaxed and
                      > caring way. In other words, treat yourself the way a
                      > truly loving parent would treat you. Be a good parent
                      > to yourself.
                      >
                      > Best wishes
                      >
                      > Peter
                      > _______________________________________________
                      >
                      > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                      > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > "If you love there is no need for discipline, is
                      > > there? Love brings its own creative understanding,
                      > > therefore there is no resistance, no conflict; but
                      > > to love with such complete integration is possible
                      > > only when you feel deeply secure, completely at
                      > > home, especially while you are young."
                      > >
                      > > (J. Krishnamurti - 'Think On These Things', pg. 112)
                      > >
                      > > Bob M.
                      > >
                      >
                    • Bob M.
                      An unloved child has a different kind of physical brain than a loved child. The damage is not simply psychological. It is neurological and therefore,
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 14, 2007
                        "An unloved child has a different kind of
                        physical brain than a loved child. The damage
                        is not simply psychological. It is neurological
                        and therefore, physical. Ultimately, it is the
                        lack of love which does us in before our time,
                        (Arthur) Janov writes. He believes that early
                        trauma causes a reduction of functioning brain
                        synapses (connections)."

                        ('The Biology of Love' by Arthur Janov, Ph.D.)

                        http://primal-page.com/biolove.htm

                        Bob M.
                        __________________________________________________

                        --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                        <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > "Without love you are a dead thing; and when
                        > the dead thing asks for love, it is still dead.
                        > Whereas, if your heart is full of love, then
                        > you never ask to be loved, you never put out
                        > your begging bowl for someone to fill it. It
                        > is only the empty who ask to be filled, and an
                        > empty heart can never be filled by running after
                        > gurus or seeking love in a hundred other ways."
                        >
                        > (J. Krishnamurti - 'Think On These Things', pg. 236)
                        >
                      • Bob M.
                        No, I can t agree with you here, Peter, in that everyone can come home again. And this tragic fact is something that I find few, if any, men have ever fully
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 14, 2007
                          No, I can't agree with you here, Peter,
                          in that 'everyone can come home again.'

                          And this tragic fact is something that
                          I find few, if any, men have ever fully
                          come to realize.

                          However, I do know too for a fact that I
                          personally can make the return to Love,
                          let's say here, because I have made it
                          to a large enough degree to be able to
                          clearly, and without doubt, feel the
                          transition and the tremendous difference
                          between living in the hell of selfhood,
                          and coming to experience the joys of
                          living instead a heavenly existence here
                          on earth.

                          And over time, much time in my case, I've
                          come to realize that the main reason I
                          was able to make the return was because
                          that foundation of Love was instilled
                          into me when I was a child. Without which,
                          I'm thoroughly convinced, I would not have
                          never re-discovered it again.

                          But as you say, Peter, the return does
                          require change and in my own particular
                          case it involved much change, and over much
                          time. Likewise it too involved making more
                          mistakes, some of them major ones and even
                          quite costly ones. Yet in order to become
                          fully human - fully alive in a human world
                          that's very, very lost universally, I find
                          there's surely no safe and easy way. Nor is
                          there one with any guarantees either.

                          Bob M.
                          ____________________________________________


                          --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                          <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                          > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Peter. By 'we' do you mean that you and I
                          > > or everyone can come home again to ourselves?
                          >
                          >
                          > Yes, Bob. You, me or anyone else can come home
                          > to ourselves, if we want to. What is the point
                          > of insight if we do not put it into practice
                          > each new day? If we allow our behaviour to be
                          > forever shaped by our past, we are nothing more
                          > than slaves.
                          >
                          > Peter
                        • Bob M.
                          David Bohm: The brain is material. Material exists, it has an actuality apart from thought, but we don t know it. We know only some of it, the complete depths
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 14, 2007
                            David Bohm: The brain is material. Material
                            exists, it has an actuality apart from thought,
                            but we don't know it. We know only some of it,
                            the complete depths of matter are unknown to
                            us and perhaps will never be known, though we
                            may know about it more and more. The brain,
                            being made of matter is constituted matter. We
                            could never follow into the complete unknown
                            depths in which thought arises in matter.

                            Thought has become conditioned over the ages,
                            partly by heredity, and partly through tradition,
                            culture, and environment. It has been conditioned
                            to self-deception, to falsify, to distort. And
                            this is in the material structure of the brain.
                            In one sense this conditioning constitutes a
                            subtle kind of brain damage. Conditioning gives
                            great importance to thought, to the self and to
                            the center. It overloads, it distorts and gradually
                            damages the brain.

                            J. Krishnamurti: Yes. Are you saying sir, that
                            when the brain is overloaded by economic conditions,
                            social environment...

                            B.: By fear and sorrow.

                            K.: ...by all the things that are going on in
                            human beings, it does damage to the brain cells?
                            I think that is so, that can be accepted.

                            B.: There is real physical, chemical damage to
                            the brain cells and those damaged brain cells will
                            produce thought that is inherently distorted.
                            Therefore, as thought tries to correct that damage,
                            it does so from a distorted brain.

                            K.: Which will make it worse.

                            B.: Because it is distorted it must make it worse.

                            Excerpt from a talk between David Bohm and J. Krishnamurti
                            entitled 'Tradition and Truth', Gstaad, 8/6/75

                            Bob M.
                            _________________________________________________

                            --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                            <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > "An unloved child has a different kind of
                            > physical brain than a loved child. The damage
                            > is not simply psychological. It is neurological
                            > and therefore, physical. Ultimately, it is the
                            > lack of love which does us in before our time,
                            > (Arthur) Janov writes. He believes that early
                            > trauma causes a reduction of functioning brain
                            > synapses (connections)."
                            >
                            > ('The Biology of Love' by Arthur Janov, Ph.D.)
                            >
                            > http://primal-page.com/biolove.htm
                            >
                            > Bob M.
                          • proustienne2001
                            Bob, it seems then that more thought will not get the person out of the mess they are in. They are only digging themslves into deeper holes with corrupted
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 15, 2007
                              Bob, it seems then that more thought will not
                              get the person out of the mess they are in.
                              They are only digging themslves into deeper
                              holes with corrupted thinking. Only the stopping
                              of thought will do that. Learning to use their
                              eyes and ears, and heart, of course. Coming to
                              their senses.

                              Peter
                              _______________________________________________

                              --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                              <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > David Bohm: The brain is material. Material
                              > exists, it has an actuality apart from thought,
                              > but we don't know it. We know only some of it,
                              > the complete depths of matter are unknown to
                              > us and perhaps will never be known, though we
                              > may know about it more and more. The brain,
                              > being made of matter is constituted matter. We
                              > could never follow into the complete unknown
                              > depths in which thought arises in matter.
                              >
                              > Thought has become conditioned over the ages,
                              > partly by heredity, and partly through tradition,
                              > culture, and environment. It has been conditioned
                              > to self-deception, to falsify, to distort. And
                              > this is in the material structure of the brain.
                              > In one sense this conditioning constitutes a
                              > subtle kind of brain damage. Conditioning gives
                              > great importance to thought, to the self and to
                              > the center. It overloads, it distorts and gradually
                              > damages the brain.
                              >
                              > J. Krishnamurti: Yes. Are you saying sir, that
                              > when the brain is overloaded by economic conditions,
                              > social environment...
                              >
                              > B.: By fear and sorrow.
                              >
                              > K.: ...by all the things that are going on in
                              > human beings, it does damage to the brain cells?
                              > I think that is so, that can be accepted.
                              >
                              > B.: There is real physical, chemical damage to
                              > the brain cells and those damaged brain cells will
                              > produce thought that is inherently distorted.
                              > Therefore, as thought tries to correct that damage,
                              > it does so from a distorted brain.
                              >
                              > K.: Which will make it worse.
                              >
                              > B.: Because it is distorted it must make it worse.
                              >
                              > Excerpt from a talk between David Bohm and J. Krishnamurti
                              > entitled 'Tradition and Truth', Gstaad, 8/6/75
                              >
                              > Bob M.
                              > _________________________________________________
                              >
                              > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                              > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > "An unloved child has a different kind of
                              > > physical brain than a loved child. The damage
                              > > is not simply psychological. It is neurological
                              > > and therefore, physical. Ultimately, it is the
                              > > lack of love which does us in before our time,
                              > > (Arthur) Janov writes. He believes that early
                              > > trauma causes a reduction of functioning brain
                              > > synapses (connections)."
                              > >
                              > > ('The Biology of Love' by Arthur Janov, Ph.D.)
                              > >
                              > > http://primal-page.com/biolove.htm
                              > >
                              > > Bob M.
                              >
                            • Bob M.
                              Hi Peter, Yes, I think Einstein once said that we can t solve our problems with the same sort of thinking that created them in the first place. And Jung said
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 15, 2007
                                Hi Peter,

                                Yes, I 'think' Einstein once said that we
                                can't solve our problems with the same sort
                                of thinking that created them in the first
                                place. And Jung said basically the same
                                thing using the word consciousness (level of)
                                in place of thinking. And as you so well put
                                it, we must indeed begin to 'come to our senses'
                                which I would say would be to also begin to
                                discover and/or learn to better 'feel'
                                'right' thinking from 'wrong' thinking.
                                I think J.Krishnamurti often got too carried
                                away in regards to this thought and thinking
                                business, and whereby U. G. Krishnamurti
                                somewhat indirectly alluded to the view, which
                                I fully agree with, that it is 'self-protective'
                                thought and thinking, that we are all conditioned
                                into to varying degrees from childhood on up,
                                that is our real problem.

                                Bob M.
                                __________________________________________________

                                --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Bob, it seems then that more thought will not
                                > get the person out of the mess they are in.
                                > They are only digging themslves into deeper
                                > holes with corrupted thinking. Only the stopping
                                > of thought will do that. Learning to use their
                                > eyes and ears, and heart, of course. Coming to
                                > their senses.
                                >
                                > Peter
                                > _______________________________________________
                                >
                                > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > David Bohm: The brain is material. Material
                                > > exists, it has an actuality apart from thought,
                                > > but we don't know it. We know only some of it,
                                > > the complete depths of matter are unknown to
                                > > us and perhaps will never be known, though we
                                > > may know about it more and more. The brain,
                                > > being made of matter is constituted matter. We
                                > > could never follow into the complete unknown
                                > > depths in which thought arises in matter.
                                > >
                                > > Thought has become conditioned over the ages,
                                > > partly by heredity, and partly through tradition,
                                > > culture, and environment. It has been conditioned
                                > > to self-deception, to falsify, to distort. And
                                > > this is in the material structure of the brain.
                                > > In one sense this conditioning constitutes a
                                > > subtle kind of brain damage. Conditioning gives
                                > > great importance to thought, to the self and to
                                > > the center. It overloads, it distorts and gradually
                                > > damages the brain.
                                > >
                                > > J. Krishnamurti: Yes. Are you saying sir, that
                                > > when the brain is overloaded by economic conditions,
                                > > social environment...
                                > >
                                > > B.: By fear and sorrow.
                                > >
                                > > K.: ...by all the things that are going on in
                                > > human beings, it does damage to the brain cells?
                                > > I think that is so, that can be accepted.
                                > >
                                > > B.: There is real physical, chemical damage to
                                > > the brain cells and those damaged brain cells will
                                > > produce thought that is inherently distorted.
                                > > Therefore, as thought tries to correct that damage,
                                > > it does so from a distorted brain.
                                > >
                                > > K.: Which will make it worse.
                                > >
                                > > B.: Because it is distorted it must make it worse.
                                > >
                                > > Excerpt from a talk between David Bohm and J. Krishnamurti
                                > > entitled 'Tradition and Truth', Gstaad, 8/6/75
                                > >
                                > > Bob M.
                                > > _________________________________________________
                                > >
                                > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                > > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > "An unloved child has a different kind of
                                > > > physical brain than a loved child. The damage
                                > > > is not simply psychological. It is neurological
                                > > > and therefore, physical. Ultimately, it is the
                                > > > lack of love which does us in before our time,
                                > > > (Arthur) Janov writes. He believes that early
                                > > > trauma causes a reduction of functioning brain
                                > > > synapses (connections)."
                                > > >
                                > > > ('The Biology of Love' by Arthur Janov, Ph.D.)
                                > > >
                                > > > http://primal-page.com/biolove.htm
                                > > >
                                > > > Bob M.
                                > >
                                >
                              • Bob M.
                                I would go on to add here, Peter, that I think the more loving, secure, and anxiety- free our childhoods are, the less likely it will be that we will become
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 17, 2007
                                  I would go on to add here, Peter, that I
                                  think the more loving, secure, and anxiety-
                                  free our childhoods are, the less likely it
                                  will be that we will become conditioned into
                                  'self-protective' thought.

                                  Yet I feel that in the vast majority of
                                  people, due to the lack of a sufficient
                                  realization of feelings of love and security
                                  in the early formative years, their
                                  neurological systems have been developed in
                                  a mal-formed and dysfunctional manner which
                                  can never be set aright in the whole of a
                                  lifetime.

                                  Therefore these unloved souls are
                                  irrreparably locked into a m. o. which would
                                  be grounded in self-protective thought which
                                  too could be considered self-centered thought,
                                  both of which manifest outwardly primarily
                                  in self-seeking and self-serving actions and
                                  behaviors.

                                  And since feelings of insecurity and fear
                                  were considerable in their early years, the
                                  accompanying emotional pain was greatly
                                  nulified in its being wired into the brain -
                                  the heart of the neurological system.
                                  So in most cases little, or no, pain or
                                  suffering would be felt or experienced in the
                                  organism as a result of living an inauthentic,
                                  dishonest, and fundamentally selfish life.

                                  It could thereby be said that these kinds,
                                  again who make up the vast majority of human
                                  beings, simply lack having a conscience, or
                                  perhaps more correctly, they lack having a
                                  finely-formed conscience.

                                  Ludwig Feuerbach seemed to have a sense of
                                  what I'm alluding to here back in the 19th
                                  century. But he differentiates these too kinds
                                  of human beings as the 'man' and the 'brute',
                                  the latter he felt was incapable of being
                                  authentically 'religious'.

                                  Whereas I would call them the loved or warmly
                                  nurtured and the unloved or neglected. One
                                  might too consider them the 'many' and the
                                  'chosen few', the latter alone being potentially
                                  capable of becoming fully-awake, fully-human,
                                  and fully-alive.

                                  Bob M.
                                  _______________________________________________

                                  --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                  <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Peter,
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I 'think' Einstein once said that we
                                  > can't solve our problems with the same sort
                                  > of thinking that created them in the first
                                  > place. And Jung said basically the same
                                  > thing using the word consciousness (level of)
                                  > in place of thinking. And as you so well put
                                  > it, we must indeed begin to 'come to our senses'
                                  > which I would say would be to also begin to
                                  > discover and/or learn to better 'feel'
                                  > 'right' thinking from 'wrong' thinking.
                                  > I think J.Krishnamurti often got too carried
                                  > away in regards to this thought and thinking
                                  > business, and whereby U. G. Krishnamurti
                                  > somewhat indirectly alluded to the view, which
                                  > I fully agree with, that it is 'self-protective'
                                  > thought and thinking, that we are all conditioned
                                  > into to varying degrees from childhood on up,
                                  > that is our real problem.
                                  >
                                  > Bob M.
                                • Bob M.
                                  Well Peter, it seems we still don t see eye to eye here. Since I maintain that the experiential foundation of Love must have been firmly planted ( mirrored )
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 19, 2007
                                    Well Peter, it seems we still don't see
                                    eye to eye here. Since I maintain that the
                                    experiential foundation of Love must have
                                    been firmly planted ('mirrored') in us in
                                    our early formative years or there'll be
                                    no re-discovering of it in the whole of a
                                    lifetime. Though I can agree with you that
                                    'gentleness, softness, and kindness' are the
                                    best ways we can help others to rediscover
                                    that greatest of gifts. Yet I too think
                                    there's a time to be firm, perhaps even
                                    quite firm. Likewise the need to 'slow down
                                    and relax' is important too, and certainly
                                    in my own case, at least at times.


                                    Best wishes,

                                    Bob M.
                                    ____________________________________________

                                    --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                    <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yes, indeed, Bobby. I would agree with you.
                                    > Perhaps the main difference between the loved
                                    > or warmly nurtured and the unloved or neglected
                                    > is the failure of the latter group to see love
                                    > mirrored in a practical way. One needs to see
                                    > and experience something in order to learn it.
                                    > And love can be learned, even by those who have
                                    > never seen it mirrored in their own life.
                                    > Learning to listen is very important to learning
                                    > and change. The unloved and neglected find it
                                    > very difficult to listen, especially to
                                    > themselves. Listening is only effective in
                                    > conditions of gentleness, softness and kindness.
                                    > Listening mechanisms automatically shut down in
                                    > circumstances of bullying, chaos, fear, rushing,
                                    > anxiety, harshness, loudness, judgementalism and
                                    > our old friend anger. So, in order to practise
                                    > what we preach, we need to become models of
                                    > patience, gentleness, calmness and love. Most
                                    > of all we need to slow down and relax.
                                    > Coherence and integration are only possible
                                    > under those conditions.
                                    >
                                    > Best wishes
                                    >
                                    > Peter
                                    > ___________________________________________
                                    >
                                    > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                    > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I would go on to add here, Peter, that I
                                    > > think the more loving, secure, and anxiety-
                                    > > free our childhoods are, the less likely it
                                    > > will be that we will become conditioned into
                                    > > 'self-protective' thought.
                                    > >
                                    > > Yet I feel that in the vast majority of
                                    > > people, due to the lack of a sufficient
                                    > > realization of feelings of love and security
                                    > > in the early formative years, their
                                    > > neurological systems have been developed in
                                    > > a mal-formed and dysfunctional manner which
                                    > > can never be set aright in the whole of a
                                    > > lifetime.
                                    > >
                                    > > Therefore these unloved souls are
                                    > > irrreparably locked into a m. o. which would
                                    > > be grounded in self-protective thought which
                                    > > too could be considered self-centered thought,
                                    > > both of which manifest outwardly primarily
                                    > > in self-seeking and self-serving actions and
                                    > > behaviors.
                                    > >
                                    > > And since feelings of insecurity and fear
                                    > > were considerable in their early years, the
                                    > > accompanying emotional pain was greatly
                                    > > nulified in its being wired into the brain -
                                    > > the heart of the neurological system.
                                    > > So in most cases little, or no, pain or
                                    > > suffering would be felt or experienced in the
                                    > > organism as a result of living an inauthentic,
                                    > > dishonest, and fundamentally selfish life.
                                    > >
                                    > > It could thereby be said that these kinds,
                                    > > again who make up the vast majority of human
                                    > > beings, simply lack having a conscience, or
                                    > > perhaps more correctly, they lack having a
                                    > > finely-formed conscience.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ludwig Feuerbach seemed to have a sense of
                                    > > what I'm alluding to here back in the 19th
                                    > > century. But he differentiates these too kinds
                                    > > of human beings as the 'man' and the 'brute',
                                    > > the latter he felt was incapable of being
                                    > > authentically 'religious'.
                                    > >
                                    > > Whereas I would call them the loved or warmly
                                    > > nurtured and the unloved or neglected. One
                                    > > might too consider them the 'many' and the
                                    > > 'chosen few', the latter alone being potentially
                                    > > capable of becoming fully-awake, fully-human,
                                    > > and fully-alive.
                                    > >
                                    > > Bob M.
                                  • Bob M.
                                    I d say that s a yes and a no, Peter. But we can still be friends, at least here at this end where there is compassion, beauty, love, AND above all,
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 20, 2007
                                      I'd say that's a yes and a no, Peter. But
                                      we can still be friends, at least here at
                                      this end where there is compassion, beauty,
                                      love, AND above all, understanding.

                                      Bob M.
                                      ____________________________________________

                                      --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                      <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Bob, I do not think that we will ever see
                                      > eye to eye. That is the beauty of life.
                                      >
                                      > Peter
                                    • Bob M.
                                      How do you view (or understand) Nietzsche s 11 year insanity at the ends of his days, Peter? Personally I find that feelings of insanity are something that
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 20, 2007
                                        How do you view (or understand) Nietzsche's
                                        11 year insanity at the ends of his days,
                                        Peter? Personally I find that feelings of
                                        insanity are something that continually nip
                                        at the heels of the genuine 'free-spirit'. I
                                        know Krishnamurti, and others, had a tough
                                        time of it too, in knowing they were the only
                                        healthy souls in a profoundly sick and fallen
                                        world.

                                        Bob M.
                                        __________________________________________________

                                        --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                        <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Yes indeed, Bob. As Nietzsche says, "A friend
                                        > should be a master at guessing and keeping still:
                                        > you must not want to see everything." And as you
                                        > say, Bobby, lets celebrate understanding, that
                                        > lovely quality that embraces humility.
                                        >
                                        > Peter
                                        > ___________________________________________________
                                        >
                                        > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                        > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I'd say that's a yes and a no, Peter. But
                                        > > we can still be friends, at least here at
                                        > > this end where there is compassion, beauty,
                                        > > love, AND above all, understanding.
                                        > >
                                        > > Bob M.
                                        > > ____________________________________________
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                        > > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Bob, I do not think that we will ever see
                                        > > > eye to eye. That is the beauty of life.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Peter
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Bob M.
                                        All we really know is the myth? Hmmm, I find your reply here rather narrow, disappointing, and perhaps even evasive, Peter. But that s surely ok, as there s
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 21, 2007
                                          "All we really know is the myth?"

                                          Hmmm, I find your reply here rather narrow,
                                          disappointing, and perhaps even evasive, Peter.
                                          But that's surely ok, as there's love and
                                          perhaps even good understanding too here at
                                          this end. And certainly well-wishing besides.

                                          Bob M.
                                          _____________________________________________

                                          --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                          <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Bob, we will never truly know anything of
                                          > real substance about the inner life of Nietzche
                                          > or Krishnamurti. There is a tremendous amount
                                          > of mythology surrounding the lives and personalities
                                          > of both men. All we really know is the myth.
                                          >
                                          > Peter
                                        • Bob M.
                                          I don t fully agree here, Peter. Why do you quote others then? How do you know that you understand precisely what they were trying to get across? Likewise why
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 21, 2007
                                            I don't fully agree here, Peter. Why do
                                            you quote others then? How do you
                                            know that you understand precisely what
                                            they were trying to get across? Likewise
                                            why don't you share things or experiences
                                            about yourself herein. Check the archives
                                            my friend, I've shared much about myself,
                                            which is what indeed really helps others,
                                            as I think you are half-heartedly trying
                                            to say here. And believe it or not there's
                                            no heart anywhere on the planet that's
                                            more self-examined, purged, and opened to
                                            life and others than mine is.

                                            "Judge and be prepaired to be judged." (Ayn Rand)

                                            "Nowaday nobody dies of fatal truths, we
                                            have too many antidotes for them." (Nietzsche)

                                            "Only the man with a closet full of skeletons
                                            fears judgment." (Bob M.)

                                            Remaining OPEN to any and all questions
                                            and inquiry, I am, I am.

                                            Bob M.
                                            _____________________________________________

                                            --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                            <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I don't agree, Bob. I think the real evasion
                                            > is to not look into our own heart. Passing
                                            > comment on the inner life of others is
                                            > superficial and pointless. We can only change
                                            > our own life, in the here and now. We need to
                                            > take a good look at ourselves in the mirror.
                                            >
                                            > Peter
                                            > ____________________________________________
                                            > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                            > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > "All we really know is the myth?"
                                            > >
                                            > > Hmmm, I find your reply here rather narrow,
                                            > > disappointing, and perhaps even evasive, Peter.
                                            > > But that's surely ok, as there's love and
                                            > > perhaps even good understanding too here at
                                            > > this end. And certainly well-wishing besides.
                                            > >
                                            > > Bob M.
                                            > > _____________________________________________
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                            > > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Bob, we will never truly know anything of
                                            > > > real substance about the inner life of Nietzche
                                            > > > or Krishnamurti. There is a tremendous amount
                                            > > > of mythology surrounding the lives and personalities
                                            > > > of both men. All we really know is the myth.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Peter
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Bob M.
                                            Sigmund Freud once said that he felt Nietzsche had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man who ever lived or perhaps ever will live. And
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 22, 2007
                                              Sigmund Freud once said that he felt Nietzsche
                                              had a more deeply penetrating insight into
                                              himself than any man who ever lived or perhaps
                                              ever will live.

                                              And for quite some time now I found this
                                              observation rather interesting and above all
                                              quite challenging.

                                              Bob M.
                                              _________________________________________________

                                              --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                              <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I don't fully agree here, Peter. Why do
                                              > you quote others then? How do you
                                              > know that you understand precisely what
                                              > they were trying to get across? Likewise
                                              > why don't you share things or experiences
                                              > about yourself herein. Check the archives
                                              > my friend, I've shared much about myself,
                                              > which is what indeed really helps others,
                                              > as I think you are half-heartedly trying
                                              > to say here. And believe it or not there's
                                              > no heart anywhere on the planet that's
                                              > more self-examined, purged, and opened to
                                              > life and others than mine is.
                                              >
                                              > "Judge and be prepaired to be judged." (Ayn Rand)
                                              >
                                              > "Nowaday nobody dies of fatal truths, we
                                              > have too many antidotes for them." (Nietzsche)
                                              >
                                              > "Only the man with a closet full of skeletons
                                              > fears judgment." (Bob M.)
                                              >
                                              > Remaining OPEN to any and all questions
                                              > and inquiry, I am, I am.
                                              >
                                              > Bob M.
                                              > _____________________________________________
                                              >
                                              > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                              > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > I don't agree, Bob. I think the real evasion
                                              > > is to not look into our own heart. Passing
                                              > > comment on the inner life of others is
                                              > > superficial and pointless. We can only change
                                              > > our own life, in the here and now. We need to
                                              > > take a good look at ourselves in the mirror.
                                              > >
                                              > > Peter
                                            • Bob M.
                                              Deep contentment of being is encountered in existence only when love is present; the pain of existence lies in my having to hate; the emptyness of non-being is
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Dec 22, 2007
                                                Deep contentment of being is encountered in
                                                existence only when love is present; the pain
                                                of existence lies in my having to hate; the
                                                emptyness of non-being is contained in the
                                                stale indifference in which I neither love
                                                nor hate. In love I attain the heights, in
                                                hatred and lovelessness I plunge downward.

                                                (Karl Jaspers)

                                                Bob M.
                                                __________________________________________

                                                --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                                <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > "Without love you are a dead thing; and when
                                                > the dead thing asks for love, it is still dead.
                                                > Whereas, if your heart is full of love, then
                                                > you never ask to be loved, you never put out
                                                > your begging bowl for someone to fill it. It
                                                > is only the empty who ask to be filled, and an
                                                > empty heart can never be filled by running after
                                                > gurus or seeking love in a hundred other ways."
                                                >
                                                > (J. Krishnamurti - 'Think On These Things', pg. 236)
                                                >
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