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Man - the human machine.....

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  • Bob M.
    Man as we encounter him is an automaton. His thoughts, feelings, and deeds are little more than mechanical reactions to external and internal stimuli. He
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
      "Man as we encounter him is an automaton. His thoughts, feelings,
      and deeds are little more than mechanical reactions to external and
      internal stimuli. He cannot do anything. In and around him,
      everything happens without the participation of his own authentic
      consciousness. But human beings are ignorant of this state of affairs
      because of the pervasive influence of culture and education, which
      engrave in them the illusion of autonomous conscious selves. In
      short, man is asleep. There is no authentic I am in his presence, but
      only an egoism which masquerades as the authentic self, and whose
      machinations poorly imitate the normal human functions of thought,
      feeling, and will. One needs a relentless will to work, rooted in an
      inexhaustible Wish, a hunger to learn to be - and, even that is not
      enough. One also needs help from others. And there's worse news yet:
      authentic help is hard to find, since few in our world are awake. Few
      have created a real 'I'." (G. I. Gurdjieff)

      Bob M.
    • Bob M.
      Men are machines. Machines have to be blind and unconscious, they can not be otherwise, and all their actions have to correspond to their nature. Everything
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
        "Men are machines. Machines have to be blind and unconscious, they can
        not be otherwise, and all their actions have to correspond to their
        nature. Everything happens. No one does anything. 'Progress'
        and 'civilization' in the real meaning of the words, can appear only as
        a result of 'conscious' efforts...And what conscious effort can there
        be in machines?...And the unconscious activity of a million machines
        must necessarily result in destruction and extermination. It is
        precisely in unconscious involuntary manifestations that all
        evil lies." (G. I. Gurdjieff)

        Bob M.
      • Bob M.
        It happens fairly often that essence dies in a man while his personality and body are still alive. A considerable percentage of the people we meet in the
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
          "It happens fairly often that essence dies in a man while his
          personality and body are still alive. A considerable percentage of the
          people we meet in the streets of a great town are people who are empty
          inside, that is, they are 'already dead'. It is fortunate for us that
          we do not see and do not know it. If we knew what number of people are
          actually dead and what number of these dead people govern our lives, we
          would go mad with horror." (G. I. Gurdjieff)

          Bob M.
        • Bob M.
          Man is asleep, literally asleep. He lives, works, marries, reproduces, goes to war, grows old, and finally dies like a dog in a deep hypnotic sleep. But there
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
            "Man is asleep, literally asleep. He lives, works, marries, reproduces,
            goes to war, grows old, and finally dies like a dog in a deep hypnotic
            sleep. But there is a possibility to awaken. Man has 'Buffers' which
            prevent him awakening, they prevent him from seeing the contradictions
            in his behaviour. He believes he already is what he should wish to
            become. Man needs to be 'shocked' into awakening. An example of 'shock'
            is the technique of 'self remembering'. Man is a machine. He is not
            responsible for his actions. He acts in the only way he can act. He
            acts mechanically, thinks mecanically, reacts mechanically - therefore
            he is a machine! Man needs to observe the machine in himself, separate
            himself from it, and struggle with it. 'I am a machine' can become
            (with hard Work) - 'I have a machine'." (G. I. Gurdjieff)

            Bob M.
          • Bob M.
            There do exist enquiring minds, which long for the truth of the heart, seek it, strive to solve the problems set by life, try to penetrate to the essence of
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
              "There do exist enquiring minds, which long for the truth of the heart,
              seek it, strive to solve the problems set by life, try to penetrate to
              the essence of things and phenomena and to penetrate into themselves.
              If a man reasons and thinks soundly, no matter which path he follows in
              solving these problems, he must inevitably arrive back at himself, and
              begin with the solution of the problem of what he is himself and what
              his place is in the world around him." (G. I. Gurdjieff)

              "The essential thing, the first thing, is to prepare a nucleus of
              people capable of responding to the demand which will arise...So long
              as there is no responsible nucleus, the action of the ideas will not go
              beyond a certain threshold. That will take time...a lot of time even."
              (Gurdjieff's last recorded words spoken to Jeanne de Salzmann)

              Bob M.
            • cosmic_hunter56
              G was a very interesting character, Bob. Human machine, many I s, octaves of creation, and recurrence are all thought-provoking concepts. Last night I had
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
                G was a very interesting character, Bob. Human machine, many "I's,"
                octaves of creation, and recurrence are all thought-provoking
                concepts.

                Last night I had friend over who is interested in these things as
                well, and we watched the 'Huckabees' together (did you ever see that
                movie?). The movie contrasts two existential philosophies, nihilism
                and its opposite.

                Do you consider yourself to be a "nihilist" Bob?

                Ken

                --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                >
                > "There do exist enquiring minds, which long for the truth of the
                heart,
                > seek it, strive to solve the problems set by life, try to penetrate
                to
                > the essence of things and phenomena and to penetrate into
                themselves.
                > If a man reasons and thinks soundly, no matter which path he
                follows in
                > solving these problems, he must inevitably arrive back at himself,
                and
                > begin with the solution of the problem of what he is himself and
                what
                > his place is in the world around him." (G. I. Gurdjieff)
                >
                > "The essential thing, the first thing, is to prepare a nucleus of
                > people capable of responding to the demand which will arise...So
                long
                > as there is no responsible nucleus, the action of the ideas will
                not go
                > beyond a certain threshold. That will take time...a lot of time
                even."
                > (Gurdjieff's last recorded words spoken to Jeanne de Salzmann)
                >
                > Bob M.
                >
              • cosmic_hunter56
                From what I ve read, Bob, G himself became crystallized along the way and did not fully awaken, though his words ring true. Ken ... affairs ... but ... Few
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
                  From what I've read, Bob, G himself became crystallized along the way
                  and did not fully awaken, though his words ring true. Ken


                  --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                  <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > "Man as we encounter him is an automaton. His thoughts, feelings,
                  > and deeds are little more than mechanical reactions to external and
                  > internal stimuli. He cannot do anything. In and around him,
                  > everything happens without the participation of his own authentic
                  > consciousness. But human beings are ignorant of this state of
                  affairs
                  > because of the pervasive influence of culture and education, which
                  > engrave in them the illusion of autonomous conscious selves. In
                  > short, man is asleep. There is no authentic I am in his presence,
                  but
                  > only an egoism which masquerades as the authentic self, and whose
                  > machinations poorly imitate the normal human functions of thought,
                  > feeling, and will. One needs a relentless will to work, rooted in an
                  > inexhaustible Wish, a hunger to learn to be - and, even that is not
                  > enough. One also needs help from others. And there's worse news yet:
                  > authentic help is hard to find, since few in our world are awake.
                  Few
                  > have created a real 'I'." (G. I. Gurdjieff)
                  >
                  > Bob M.
                  >
                • Bob M.
                  I think Gurdjieff reached the summit alright, as did many others, and likewise couldn t firmly plant himself there either, Ken. The sauce and the smokes
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
                    I think Gurdjieff reached the summit alright, as did many others, and
                    likewise couldn't firmly plant himself there either, Ken. The sauce and
                    the smokes probably being his main undoing. Of course he never really
                    had a real plan either, as was the case too with most of the 'big-boys'
                    who talked pretty upright, but just never managed to walk fully upright.

                    Bob M.
                    _______________________________________

                    --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_hunter56"
                    <cosmic_hunter56@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From what I've read, Bob, G himself became crystallized along the way
                    > and did not fully awaken, though his words ring true. Ken
                    Bob M.
                  • Bob M.
                    And the unconscious activity of a million machines must necessarily result in destruction and extermination. (Gurdjieff) I find this notion of Gurdjieff dead
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
                      "And the unconscious activity of a million machines must necessarily
                      result in destruction and extermination." (Gurdjieff)

                      I find this notion of Gurdjieff dead on, Ken. And it is mine too.
                      Human authenticity is virtually non-existent. The Apocalypse is close
                      at hand.

                      A nihilist?

                      How about an antinililist, a Creative Spirit, as Nietzsche layed out
                      below regarding the man that must come one day?

                      "The CREATIVE SPIRIT".....

                      "But some day, in a stronger age than this decaying, self-doubting
                      present, he must yet come to us, the redeeming man of great love and
                      contempt, the creative spirit whose compelling strength will not let
                      him rest in any aloofness or any beyond, whose isolation is
                      misunderstood by the people as if it were flight from reality--while
                      it is only his absorption, immersion, penetration into reality, so
                      that, when he one day emerges again into the light, he may bring home
                      the redemption of this reality; its redemption from the curse that
                      the hitherto reigning ideal has laid upon it. This man of the future,
                      who will redeem us not only from the hitherto reigning ideal but also
                      from that which was bound to grow out of it..., nihilism; ...this
                      Antichrist and antinihilist, this victor over God and nothingness--he
                      must come one day." (Nietzsche -GM)

                      Bob M.

                      I was never really a movie buff, Ken. I had no clue as to what 'The
                      Last Picture Show' was about that Peter mention yesterday, although I
                      heard the name. I guess at my age one could not help having heard the
                      name, as it's all apart of our cultural hype and conditioning. But at
                      least I didn't have to be the 'first to conform' and race off and go
                      and see the film.
                      _____________________________________

                      --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_hunter56"
                      <cosmic_hunter56@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > G was a very interesting character, Bob. Human machine, many "I's,"
                      > octaves of creation, and recurrence are all thought-provoking
                      > concepts.
                      >
                      > Last night I had friend over who is interested in these things as
                      > well, and we watched the 'Huckabees' together (did you ever see
                      that
                      > movie?). The movie contrasts two existential philosophies, nihilism
                      > and its opposite.
                      >
                      > Do you consider yourself to be a "nihilist" Bob?
                      >
                      > Ken
                    • proustienne2001
                      Yes indeed, Bob. That is the bottom line. Walking the talk. Peter ... and ... and ... really ... boys ... upright. ... way
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 3, 2006
                        Yes indeed, Bob. That is the bottom line. Walking the talk.
                        Peter
                        --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                        <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I think Gurdjieff reached the summit alright, as did many others,
                        and
                        > likewise couldn't firmly plant himself there either, Ken. The sauce
                        and
                        > the smokes probably being his main undoing. Of course he never
                        really
                        > had a real plan either, as was the case too with most of the 'big-
                        boys'
                        > who talked pretty upright, but just never managed to walk fully
                        upright.
                        >
                        > Bob M.
                        > _______________________________________
                        >
                        > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_hunter56"
                        > <cosmic_hunter56@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > From what I've read, Bob, G himself became crystallized along the
                        way
                        > > and did not fully awaken, though his words ring true. Ken
                        > Bob M.
                        >
                      • Bob M.
                        Yes Peter, and as soon as I read your words here, a thought of my own lingering cowardice came to mind. Yet I m convinced that when it comes to any human
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 4, 2006
                          Yes Peter, and as soon as I read your words here, a thought of my own
                          lingering cowardice came to mind. Yet I'm convinced that when it
                          comes to any human spiritual enterprise or undertaking the 'moral
                          compass' must be the primary guide. Beginning with repentance and on
                          to a thorough rebuilding of the mind, body, and spirit. And again
                          this is where most all of the so-called 'big boys' have failed.

                          "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious
                          contact with God, as we understood him, praying ONLY for knowledge of
                          His will for us AND THE POWER TO CARRY THAT OUT." (Step 11)

                          "Thy will be done."

                          Bob M.
                          __________________________________________


                          --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                          <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes indeed, Bob. That is the bottom line. Walking the talk.
                          > Peter
                        • proustienne2001
                          Bob, I have enjoyed the references to Kierkegaard you have made in your recent posts. Has he been a big influence on your thinking? Kierkegaard writes that the
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 4, 2006
                            Bob, I have enjoyed the references to Kierkegaard you have made in
                            your recent posts. Has he been a big influence on your thinking?
                            Kierkegaard writes that the personality is only ripe when a man has
                            made the truth his own.
                            Peter
                            --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                            <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Yes Peter, and as soon as I read your words here, a thought of my
                            own
                            > lingering cowardice came to mind. Yet I'm convinced that when it
                            > comes to any human spiritual enterprise or undertaking the 'moral
                            > compass' must be the primary guide. Beginning with repentance and
                            on
                            > to a thorough rebuilding of the mind, body, and spirit. And again
                            > this is where most all of the so-called 'big boys' have failed.
                            >
                            > "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious
                            > contact with God, as we understood him, praying ONLY for knowledge
                            of
                            > His will for us AND THE POWER TO CARRY THAT OUT." (Step 11)
                            >
                            > "Thy will be done."
                            >
                            > Bob M.
                            > __________________________________________
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                            > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Yes indeed, Bob. That is the bottom line. Walking the talk.
                            > > Peter
                            >
                          • Bob M.
                            No, I d say Krishnamurti and Nietzsche were definitely my biggest influences, Peter. And I d prefer to think that the personality is only ripe when a man has
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                              No, I'd say Krishnamurti and Nietzsche were definitely my biggest
                              influences, Peter. And I'd prefer to think that the personality is
                              only ripe when a man has gone beyond good and evil. And it's terribly
                              lonely over there as Kierkegaard and some others knew full well
                              indeed.

                              And more and more am I realizing this deep truth which is reflected
                              well in the following line of Kahlil Gibran from his book 'The Broken
                              Wings', along too with the sad fact that few there be that ever get
                              there or ripen.

                              "In that year (18 years of age) I was reborn and unless a man is born
                              again his life will remain like a blank sheet in the book of
                              existence. In that year, I saw the angels of Heaven looking at me
                              through the eyes of a beautiful woman. I also saw the devils of hell
                              raging in the heart of an evil man. He who does not see the angels
                              and devils in the beauty and malice of life will be far removed from
                              knowledge, and his spirit will be empty of affection." (Kahlil G.)

                              "This is what is sad when one contemplates human life, that so many
                              live out their lives in quiet lostness . . . they live, as it were,
                              away from themselves and vanish like shadows. (Soren K.)

                              Bob M.
                              ________________________________________________

                              --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                              <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Bob, I have enjoyed the references to Kierkegaard you have made in
                              > your recent posts. Has he been a big influence on your thinking?
                              > Kierkegaard writes that the personality is only ripe when a man
                              has
                              > made the truth his own.
                              > Peter
                            • proustienne2001
                              Bob, I like the Kierkegaard quote. Which of his books is it from? I had a friend who died a couple of years ago, his favorite philosopher was Kierkegaard. And
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                                Bob, I like the Kierkegaard quote. Which of his books is it from? I
                                had a friend who died a couple of years ago, his favorite philosopher
                                was Kierkegaard. And this man had read everything-philosophy,
                                mathematics, theology.
                                I like this from Kierkegaard:Boredom is the root of all evil - the
                                despairing refusal to be oneself.
                                Peter
                                --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > No, I'd say Krishnamurti and Nietzsche were definitely my biggest
                                > influences, Peter. And I'd prefer to think that the personality is
                                > only ripe when a man has gone beyond good and evil. And it's
                                terribly
                                > lonely over there as Kierkegaard and some others knew full well
                                > indeed.
                                >
                                > And more and more am I realizing this deep truth which is reflected
                                > well in the following line of Kahlil Gibran from his book 'The
                                Broken
                                > Wings', along too with the sad fact that few there be that ever get
                                > there or ripen.
                                >
                                > "In that year (18 years of age) I was reborn and unless a man is
                                born
                                > again his life will remain like a blank sheet in the book of
                                > existence. In that year, I saw the angels of Heaven looking at me
                                > through the eyes of a beautiful woman. I also saw the devils of
                                hell
                                > raging in the heart of an evil man. He who does not see the angels
                                > and devils in the beauty and malice of life will be far removed
                                from
                                > knowledge, and his spirit will be empty of affection." (Kahlil G.)
                                >
                                > "This is what is sad when one contemplates human life, that so many
                                > live out their lives in quiet lostness . . . they live, as it were,
                                > away from themselves and vanish like shadows. (Soren K.)
                                >
                                > Bob M.
                                > ________________________________________________
                                >
                                > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Bob, I have enjoyed the references to Kierkegaard you have made
                                in
                                > > your recent posts. Has he been a big influence on your thinking?
                                > > Kierkegaard writes that the personality is only ripe when a man
                                > has
                                > > made the truth his own.
                                > > Peter
                                >
                              • cosmic_hunter56
                                Many of us are well read, Peter--our minds are full, but our hearts remain hungry. Ken ... philosopher ... is ... reflected ... get ... angels ... many ...
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                                  Many of us are well read, Peter--our minds are full, but our hearts
                                  remain hungry. Ken

                                  --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                  <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Bob, I like the Kierkegaard quote. Which of his books is it from? I
                                  > had a friend who died a couple of years ago, his favorite
                                  philosopher
                                  > was Kierkegaard. And this man had read everything-philosophy,
                                  > mathematics, theology.
                                  > I like this from Kierkegaard:Boredom is the root of all evil - the
                                  > despairing refusal to be oneself.
                                  > Peter
                                  > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                  > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > No, I'd say Krishnamurti and Nietzsche were definitely my biggest
                                  > > influences, Peter. And I'd prefer to think that the personality
                                  is
                                  > > only ripe when a man has gone beyond good and evil. And it's
                                  > terribly
                                  > > lonely over there as Kierkegaard and some others knew full well
                                  > > indeed.
                                  > >
                                  > > And more and more am I realizing this deep truth which is
                                  reflected
                                  > > well in the following line of Kahlil Gibran from his book 'The
                                  > Broken
                                  > > Wings', along too with the sad fact that few there be that ever
                                  get
                                  > > there or ripen.
                                  > >
                                  > > "In that year (18 years of age) I was reborn and unless a man is
                                  > born
                                  > > again his life will remain like a blank sheet in the book of
                                  > > existence. In that year, I saw the angels of Heaven looking at me
                                  > > through the eyes of a beautiful woman. I also saw the devils of
                                  > hell
                                  > > raging in the heart of an evil man. He who does not see the
                                  angels
                                  > > and devils in the beauty and malice of life will be far removed
                                  > from
                                  > > knowledge, and his spirit will be empty of affection." (Kahlil G.)
                                  > >
                                  > > "This is what is sad when one contemplates human life, that so
                                  many
                                  > > live out their lives in quiet lostness . . . they live, as it
                                  were,
                                  > > away from themselves and vanish like shadows. (Soren K.)
                                  > >
                                  > > Bob M.
                                  > > ________________________________________________
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                  > > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Bob, I have enjoyed the references to Kierkegaard you have made
                                  > in
                                  > > > your recent posts. Has he been a big influence on your
                                  thinking?
                                  > > > Kierkegaard writes that the personality is only ripe when a
                                  man
                                  > > has
                                  > > > made the truth his own.
                                  > > > Peter
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Bob M.
                                  I think I got that particular K quote a long time ago from Will Brown s (who is or was a member here) Kierkegaard Quotes which you can find at the following
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                                    I think I got that particular K quote a long time ago from Will
                                    Brown's (who is or was a member here) Kierkegaard Quotes which you
                                    can find at the following url:

                                    http://www.geocities.com/wilbro99/

                                    The K quote you mention can be found in its fuller form at the
                                    following url:

                                    http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/42

                                    Bob M.
                                    _____________________________________________

                                    --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                    <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Bob, I like the Kierkegaard quote. Which of his books is it from? I
                                    > had a friend who died a couple of years ago, his favorite
                                    philosopher
                                    > was Kierkegaard. And this man had read everything-philosophy,
                                    > mathematics, theology.
                                    > I like this from Kierkegaard:Boredom is the root of all evil - the
                                    > despairing refusal to be oneself.
                                    > Peter
                                  • proustienne2001
                                    Bob, what does your heart need? Peter ... I ... the ... biggest ... is ... me ... G.) ... made
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                                      Bob, what does your heart need?
                                      Peter
                                      --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_hunter56"
                                      <cosmic_hunter56@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Many of us are well read, Peter--our minds are full, but our hearts
                                      > remain hungry. Ken
                                      >
                                      > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                      > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Bob, I like the Kierkegaard quote. Which of his books is it from?
                                      I
                                      > > had a friend who died a couple of years ago, his favorite
                                      > philosopher
                                      > > was Kierkegaard. And this man had read everything-philosophy,
                                      > > mathematics, theology.
                                      > > I like this from Kierkegaard:Boredom is the root of all evil -
                                      the
                                      > > despairing refusal to be oneself.
                                      > > Peter
                                      > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                      > > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > No, I'd say Krishnamurti and Nietzsche were definitely my
                                      biggest
                                      > > > influences, Peter. And I'd prefer to think that the personality
                                      > is
                                      > > > only ripe when a man has gone beyond good and evil. And it's
                                      > > terribly
                                      > > > lonely over there as Kierkegaard and some others knew full well
                                      > > > indeed.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > And more and more am I realizing this deep truth which is
                                      > reflected
                                      > > > well in the following line of Kahlil Gibran from his book 'The
                                      > > Broken
                                      > > > Wings', along too with the sad fact that few there be that ever
                                      > get
                                      > > > there or ripen.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "In that year (18 years of age) I was reborn and unless a man
                                      is
                                      > > born
                                      > > > again his life will remain like a blank sheet in the book of
                                      > > > existence. In that year, I saw the angels of Heaven looking at
                                      me
                                      > > > through the eyes of a beautiful woman. I also saw the devils of
                                      > > hell
                                      > > > raging in the heart of an evil man. He who does not see the
                                      > angels
                                      > > > and devils in the beauty and malice of life will be far removed
                                      > > from
                                      > > > knowledge, and his spirit will be empty of affection." (Kahlil
                                      G.)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "This is what is sad when one contemplates human life, that so
                                      > many
                                      > > > live out their lives in quiet lostness . . . they live, as it
                                      > were,
                                      > > > away from themselves and vanish like shadows. (Soren K.)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Bob M.
                                      > > > ________________________________________________
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                      > > > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Bob, I have enjoyed the references to Kierkegaard you have
                                      made
                                      > > in
                                      > > > > your recent posts. Has he been a big influence on your
                                      > thinking?
                                      > > > > Kierkegaard writes that the personality is only ripe when a
                                      > man
                                      > > > has
                                      > > > > made the truth his own.
                                      > > > > Peter
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • proustienne2001
                                      Ken, I wonder if everbody has a hungry heart? Peter ... I ... the ... biggest ... is ... me ... G.) ... made
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                                        Ken, I wonder if everbody has a hungry heart?
                                        Peter
                                        --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_hunter56"
                                        <cosmic_hunter56@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Many of us are well read, Peter--our minds are full, but our hearts
                                        > remain hungry. Ken
                                        >
                                        > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                        > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Bob, I like the Kierkegaard quote. Which of his books is it from?
                                        I
                                        > > had a friend who died a couple of years ago, his favorite
                                        > philosopher
                                        > > was Kierkegaard. And this man had read everything-philosophy,
                                        > > mathematics, theology.
                                        > > I like this from Kierkegaard:Boredom is the root of all evil -
                                        the
                                        > > despairing refusal to be oneself.
                                        > > Peter
                                        > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                        > > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > No, I'd say Krishnamurti and Nietzsche were definitely my
                                        biggest
                                        > > > influences, Peter. And I'd prefer to think that the personality
                                        > is
                                        > > > only ripe when a man has gone beyond good and evil. And it's
                                        > > terribly
                                        > > > lonely over there as Kierkegaard and some others knew full well
                                        > > > indeed.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > And more and more am I realizing this deep truth which is
                                        > reflected
                                        > > > well in the following line of Kahlil Gibran from his book 'The
                                        > > Broken
                                        > > > Wings', along too with the sad fact that few there be that ever
                                        > get
                                        > > > there or ripen.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "In that year (18 years of age) I was reborn and unless a man
                                        is
                                        > > born
                                        > > > again his life will remain like a blank sheet in the book of
                                        > > > existence. In that year, I saw the angels of Heaven looking at
                                        me
                                        > > > through the eyes of a beautiful woman. I also saw the devils of
                                        > > hell
                                        > > > raging in the heart of an evil man. He who does not see the
                                        > angels
                                        > > > and devils in the beauty and malice of life will be far removed
                                        > > from
                                        > > > knowledge, and his spirit will be empty of affection." (Kahlil
                                        G.)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "This is what is sad when one contemplates human life, that so
                                        > many
                                        > > > live out their lives in quiet lostness . . . they live, as it
                                        > were,
                                        > > > away from themselves and vanish like shadows. (Soren K.)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Bob M.
                                        > > > ________________________________________________
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                        > > > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Bob, I have enjoyed the references to Kierkegaard you have
                                        made
                                        > > in
                                        > > > > your recent posts. Has he been a big influence on your
                                        > thinking?
                                        > > > > Kierkegaard writes that the personality is only ripe when a
                                        > man
                                        > > > has
                                        > > > > made the truth his own.
                                        > > > > Peter
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Bob M.
                                        What does my heart need? My first thought is to be around some other thoroughly transformed and self-realized people. And secondly a place of peace and quiet
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                                          What does my heart need? My first thought is to be around some other
                                          thoroughly transformed and self-realized people. And secondly a place
                                          of peace and quiet and understanding, where the pure in mind and heart
                                          can come and unburden themselves from the cares of the world and its
                                          many people who lack understanding of their highly-sensitive and
                                          sometimes erratic nature. And wherein they may then begin to genuinely
                                          rediscover themselves and flower into fullness of human being and Love.

                                          Bob M.
                                          ___________________________________________

                                          --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                          <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Bob, what does your heart need?
                                          > Peter
                                        • proustienne2001
                                          What you say is true, Ken. It is all too easy to stuff our minds with more and more. I wonder if this might in part be an attempt to prevent us from feeling
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 5, 2006
                                            What you say is true, Ken. It is all too easy to stuff our minds with
                                            more and more. I wonder if this might in part be an attempt to
                                            prevent us from feeling anything. We can drug and numb ourselves with
                                            knowledge. We become greedy and addicted to acquiring more and more,
                                            be it knowledge or something else. Perhaps filling our minds prevents
                                            us from loving. Our heads might be full but our hearts might be
                                            empty. Sometimes all this knowledge is a way of avoiding being with
                                            ourselves and others in real intimacy. Perhaps we need to get more in
                                            contact with our hearts. I am reminded of Lao Tzu when he says,to
                                            attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, remove
                                            things every day.
                                            Peter


                                            --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_hunter56"
                                            <cosmic_hunter56@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Many of us are well read, Peter--our minds are full, but our hearts
                                            > remain hungry. Ken
                                            >
                                            > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                            > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Bob, I like the Kierkegaard quote. Which of his books is it from?
                                            I
                                            > > had a friend who died a couple of years ago, his favorite
                                            > philosopher
                                            > > was Kierkegaard. And this man had read everything-philosophy,
                                            > > mathematics, theology.
                                            > > I like this from Kierkegaard:Boredom is the root of all evil -
                                            the
                                            > > despairing refusal to be oneself.
                                            > > Peter
                                            > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                            > > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > No, I'd say Krishnamurti and Nietzsche were definitely my
                                            biggest
                                            > > > influences, Peter. And I'd prefer to think that the personality
                                            > is
                                            > > > only ripe when a man has gone beyond good and evil. And it's
                                            > > terribly
                                            > > > lonely over there as Kierkegaard and some others knew full well
                                            > > > indeed.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > And more and more am I realizing this deep truth which is
                                            > reflected
                                            > > > well in the following line of Kahlil Gibran from his book 'The
                                            > > Broken
                                            > > > Wings', along too with the sad fact that few there be that ever
                                            > get
                                            > > > there or ripen.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > "In that year (18 years of age) I was reborn and unless a man
                                            is
                                            > > born
                                            > > > again his life will remain like a blank sheet in the book of
                                            > > > existence. In that year, I saw the angels of Heaven looking at
                                            me
                                            > > > through the eyes of a beautiful woman. I also saw the devils of
                                            > > hell
                                            > > > raging in the heart of an evil man. He who does not see the
                                            > angels
                                            > > > and devils in the beauty and malice of life will be far removed
                                            > > from
                                            > > > knowledge, and his spirit will be empty of affection." (Kahlil
                                            G.)
                                            > > >
                                            > > > "This is what is sad when one contemplates human life, that so
                                            > many
                                            > > > live out their lives in quiet lostness . . . they live, as it
                                            > were,
                                            > > > away from themselves and vanish like shadows. (Soren K.)
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Bob M.
                                            > > > ________________________________________________
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                            > > > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Bob, I have enjoyed the references to Kierkegaard you have
                                            made
                                            > > in
                                            > > > > your recent posts. Has he been a big influence on your
                                            > thinking?
                                            > > > > Kierkegaard writes that the personality is only ripe when a
                                            > man
                                            > > > has
                                            > > > > made the truth his own.
                                            > > > > Peter
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • cosmic_hunter56
                                            Nice quote, Peter. Intellectual speculation can be used as an escape as well. Apparently, the most difficult thing for us to do (spiritually) is get ourselves
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 6, 2006
                                              Nice quote, Peter. Intellectual speculation can be used as an escape
                                              as well. Apparently, the most difficult thing for us to do
                                              (spiritually) is get ourselves out of own way. Salvation finally
                                              comes when we accept, agree, and allow the truth to make us whole
                                              again. Ken

                                              --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                              <proustienne2001@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > What you say is true, Ken. It is all too easy to stuff our minds
                                              with
                                              > more and more. I wonder if this might in part be an attempt to
                                              > prevent us from feeling anything. We can drug and numb ourselves
                                              with
                                              > knowledge. We become greedy and addicted to acquiring more and
                                              more,
                                              > be it knowledge or something else. Perhaps filling our minds
                                              prevents
                                              > us from loving. Our heads might be full but our hearts might be
                                              > empty. Sometimes all this knowledge is a way of avoiding being with
                                              > ourselves and others in real intimacy. Perhaps we need to get more
                                              in
                                              > contact with our hearts. I am reminded of Lao Tzu when he says,to
                                              > attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, remove
                                              > things every day.
                                              > Peter
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_hunter56"
                                              > <cosmic_hunter56@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Many of us are well read, Peter--our minds are full, but our
                                              hearts
                                              > > remain hungry. Ken
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                              > > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Bob, I like the Kierkegaard quote. Which of his books is it
                                              from?
                                              > I
                                              > > > had a friend who died a couple of years ago, his favorite
                                              > > philosopher
                                              > > > was Kierkegaard. And this man had read everything-philosophy,
                                              > > > mathematics, theology.
                                              > > > I like this from Kierkegaard:Boredom is the root of all evil -
                                              > the
                                              > > > despairing refusal to be oneself.
                                              > > > Peter
                                              > > > --- In Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M."
                                              > > > <new_trail_blazer@> wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > No, I'd say Krishnamurti and Nietzsche were definitely my
                                              > biggest
                                              > > > > influences, Peter. And I'd prefer to think that the
                                              personality
                                              > > is
                                              > > > > only ripe when a man has gone beyond good and evil. And it's
                                              > > > terribly
                                              > > > > lonely over there as Kierkegaard and some others knew full
                                              well
                                              > > > > indeed.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > And more and more am I realizing this deep truth which is
                                              > > reflected
                                              > > > > well in the following line of Kahlil Gibran from his
                                              book 'The
                                              > > > Broken
                                              > > > > Wings', along too with the sad fact that few there be that
                                              ever
                                              > > get
                                              > > > > there or ripen.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > "In that year (18 years of age) I was reborn and unless a man
                                              > is
                                              > > > born
                                              > > > > again his life will remain like a blank sheet in the book of
                                              > > > > existence. In that year, I saw the angels of Heaven looking
                                              at
                                              > me
                                              > > > > through the eyes of a beautiful woman. I also saw the devils
                                              of
                                              > > > hell
                                              > > > > raging in the heart of an evil man. He who does not see the
                                              > > angels
                                              > > > > and devils in the beauty and malice of life will be far
                                              removed
                                              > > > from
                                              > > > > knowledge, and his spirit will be empty of affection."
                                              (Kahlil
                                              > G.)
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > "This is what is sad when one contemplates human life, that
                                              so
                                              > > many
                                              > > > > live out their lives in quiet lostness . . . they live, as it
                                              > > were,
                                              > > > > away from themselves and vanish like shadows. (Soren K.)
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Bob M.
                                              > > > > ________________________________________________
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- In
                                              Soar_Like_An_Eagle_2@yahoogroups.com, "proustienne2001"
                                              > > > > <proustienne2001@> wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Bob, I have enjoyed the references to Kierkegaard you have
                                              > made
                                              > > > in
                                              > > > > > your recent posts. Has he been a big influence on your
                                              > > thinking?
                                              > > > > > Kierkegaard writes that the personality is only ripe when
                                              a
                                              > > man
                                              > > > > has
                                              > > > > > made the truth his own.
                                              > > > > > Peter
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
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