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Re: [The Existential Society] That many are called-few are chosen...as per Kierkegaard

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  • <none>
    Bob, I m sorry, but I think you misunderstand Paul. He does believe that the believer can judge various -teachings- by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but he
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
      Bob, I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstand Paul. He does believe
      that the believer can judge various -teachings- by the guidance of the
      Holy Spirit, but he never implies that the believer can judge all
      -people- by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

      There were times when Paul advised his readers to suspend judgment.
      Those who are so certain of their own judgment are deceiving
      themselves: arrogant, self absorbed, and sinning. Paul considered
      himself foolish for speaking highly of himself even when it was for the
      Corinthians' own good; he had his mountaintop experiences, but
      preferred not to make reference to those, but only to what the
      Corinthians saw for themselves in him.

      Know well enough to not be taken in? Absolutely -- but that's only
      accurate when someone's trying to sell you something. Most people
      aren't.

      Jim R.

      --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:

      > From the mountain top of years of rigorously honest self-
      > introspection and much change, I find that one can know others
      > extremely well, or surely well enough not to be taken in by their
      > ways of weakness, foolishness, dependancy, and self-centeredness.
    • Bob M.
      Well Jim I think it s vain to haggle over interpretations here. Paul, as I see it, also toyed with having the mind of God, but seemed to have settled for
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
        Well Jim I think it's vain to haggle over interpretations here. Paul,
        as I see it, also toyed with having the mind of God, but seemed to
        have settled for having the mind of Christ. Personally I believe we
        can have the mind of God at least psychologically speaking. Whatever
        the case though, I would surely hope you get to the end of your days
        without having too much wool pulled over your eyes by life and other
        people Jim. But of course this is your call, your business. I think
        it was Shaw that said quite sometime ago that men don't fully mature
        till around 70, if indeed they ever do at all. And my view is that
        this situation surely hasn't improved since then. When I speak to
        others generally I speak a lot of my own past failings and spiritual
        self-overcoming and character rebuilding. This seems to go over
        better, but then there are always those......well.....unfortunates
        who will wail and flail. I do all in all however admire Paul, as
        sooner or later he got thrown out of every town that he spoke in. And
        I like especially his talk to the Ephesians, I think it was , where
        he essentially commanded men to love their wives just as the Lord
        loves them. Indicating here that he had a real grip on the capacity
        to love and fully be.

        I'm curious Jim. Have you ever had any spiritual revelations or
        awakening experiences along the lines of Paul on the road to
        Damascus? Personally I believe that such an experience or experiences
        are absolutely vital if one is to have a complete psychic change or
        go beyond (and stay beyond) the confines of both self-will and good
        and evil. Or one might say to get out of the recursive loop as
        follows:

        http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Soar_Like_An_Eagle/message/55

        Bob M.

        P.S. If one roots out ALL traces of his fraudulently conditioned self-
        will, will he then be fully Holy Spirit driven? Or perhaps then both
        fully human and fully divine?
        _____________________________________



        --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
        <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
        > Bob, I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstand Paul. He does believe
        > that the believer can judge various -teachings- by the guidance of
        the
        > Holy Spirit, but he never implies that the believer can judge all
        > -people- by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
        >
        > There were times when Paul advised his readers to suspend judgment.
        > Those who are so certain of their own judgment are deceiving
        > themselves: arrogant, self absorbed, and sinning. Paul considered
        > himself foolish for speaking highly of himself even when it was for
        the
        > Corinthians' own good; he had his mountaintop experiences, but
        > preferred not to make reference to those, but only to what the
        > Corinthians saw for themselves in him.
        >
        > Know well enough to not be taken in? Absolutely -- but that's only
        > accurate when someone's trying to sell you something. Most people
        > aren't.
        >
        > Jim R.
        .
      • <none>
        Yes, I have had such experiences. They are simultaneously immediately transformative and incomplete; the self is completely reoriented, but habits of thought
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
          Yes, I have had such experiences. They are simultaneously immediately
          transformative and incomplete; the self is completely reoriented, but
          habits of thought and of actions need to be changed, and there is no
          substitute but discipline, practice, failure, and trying again.

          I see failure as a more important discipline than success. Cultivation
          of the ability to endure repeated failure, doubly so. I don't think it
          was an accident that all Christ's disciples forsook him and fled. We
          become disillusioned with who we are, then develop realistic
          expectations, then jettison concern for the self altogether. The self
          in this last stage isn't lost, but simply so God-focused that it no
          longer spends most of its time thinking about itself. I see myself as
          being in the second stage: realistic expectations of myself and others,
          but willing to be surprised.

          Have you read Joakim Garff's biography of Kierkegaard? I think you
          would find his self questioning and self interpretation at the end of
          his life illuminating.

          I suspect we approach these issues from within the context of widely
          divergent traditions, and I also suspect -- but I could be wrong --
          your primary orientation (monist) wouldn't view them as divergent,
          while mine would (theist).

          Jim R.
        • Bob M.
          Indeed I ve had many, many failures (learning experiences) since my first spiritual awakening some 28 years ago. Actually I ve had many such spiritual
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 28, 2005
            Indeed I've had many, many failures (learning experiences) since my
            first spiritual awakening some 28 years ago. Actually I've had many
            such spiritual experiences as a child which got lost in the shuffle
            of the rat race, but returned again as the fog of self-will lifted.
            And likewise there are also the many successes. And being perfectly
            one with God or the holy spirit is presently a rather common
            experience for both myself and my wife. She's undergone her own dark
            night of the soul experiences some 5-6 years ago. And I'm glad I
            finally had the maturity and understanding to be there for her,
            rather than as previously happened a couple of times, short-
            circuiting them via the mental health and medication route.

            No I haven't read Garff's book on Kierkegaard, but I think my own
            self-questioning probably exceeds his and that so did Nietzsche's.
            This is not to say that I couldn't learn something of value from it
            though. Actually I want to put reading to a rest as I find for myself
            it still can be an escape from or avoidance of doing far more
            spiritually productive things. So far as stages go, I never really
            placed much, if any, importance on them. Actually I think this could
            be dangerous. My path was essentially one of rip, shit, or bust,
            rather than getting caught up in the mechanics of a program or
            the 'law'.

            Again I'm curious Jim. In your journey have you ever been reduced
            materially for a time to having possessed nothing, or let's say
            nearly nothing? Like living for a time on the streets or in a
            mission, after having had a good grip on the so-called American
            Dream? Or should I say here a real hands-on Luke 18: 29-30 experience?

            Bob M.

            P.S. Personally I see many good souls failing to get the gold in life
            simply because they lack the courage to make major life changes,
            including steeping out of all present existing patterns, and going it
            alone at least for a time (the real live action leap of faith). To
            the point of actually spending much time being a child again in order
            to re-establish the feeling of feelings once again. My wife and I
            spent 3 and 6 months living in a friend's remote and secluded
            mountain home some 16-17 years ago. This I feel was very vital for
            authentic self-discovery and re-establishment, especially for her, as
            I only met her a year or so previously and she was considerably shell-
            shocked at the time, as a result of recently leaving a bad 15
            marriage. Orientation you say? How about, by the grace of God, real
            f___in' down to earth Jim?
            ____________________________________________





            --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
            <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
            > Yes, I have had such experiences. They are simultaneously
            immediately
            > transformative and incomplete; the self is completely reoriented,
            but
            > habits of thought and of actions need to be changed, and there is no
            > substitute but discipline, practice, failure, and trying again.
            >
            > I see failure as a more important discipline than success.
            Cultivation
            > of the ability to endure repeated failure, doubly so. I don't
            think it
            > was an accident that all Christ's disciples forsook him and fled.
            We
            > become disillusioned with who we are, then develop realistic
            > expectations, then jettison concern for the self altogether. The
            self
            > in this last stage isn't lost, but simply so God-focused that it no
            > longer spends most of its time thinking about itself. I see myself
            as
            > being in the second stage: realistic expectations of myself and
            others,
            > but willing to be surprised.
            >
            > Have you read Joakim Garff's biography of Kierkegaard? I think you
            > would find his self questioning and self interpretation at the end
            of
            > his life illuminating.
            >
            > I suspect we approach these issues from within the context of widely
            > divergent traditions, and I also suspect -- but I could be wrong --
            > your primary orientation (monist) wouldn't view them as divergent,
            > while mine would (theist).
            >
            > Jim R.
          • <none>
            Hmmm...no, I haven t been reduced that far. I have been in circumstances where I lived under constant pressure for a long time; that s a different kind of
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
              Hmmm...no, I haven't been reduced that far. I have been in
              circumstances where I lived under constant pressure for a long time;
              that's a different kind of discipline. The need for it varies person
              by person. Christ called some rich people to abandon everything
              (reduce themselves to poverty) and follow him. Others weren't required
              to do this.

              I think this isn't a decision we're supposed to make for ourselves.

              Jim R.
            • Bob M.
              Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and repeatedly) even God Himself can t make it for us, even as much as He really, really wants to. Here
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
                Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and repeatedly)
                even God Himself can't make it for us, even as much as He really,
                really wants to. Here again, as I clearly see it, that unwillingness to
                actually 'let go' being the death of a many a good souls. My experience
                once again being, no break-a-way, no solitude, no genuine
                breakthrough/transformation. And for those who are at least half-awake,
                history also makes this quite clear.

                Bob M.

                P.S. I must add here that I gave up the bottle (alcohol) back in '77
                which I feel was also vital for my own transformation and spiritual
                awakening to occur.

                ____________________________________________

                > I think this isn't a decision we're supposed to make for ourselves.
                >
                > Jim R.
              • <none>
                You know I was speaking of the decision for poverty in that sentence below, though, right? It is perfectly possible for us to choose poverty for ourselves.
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
                  You know I was speaking of the decision for poverty in that sentence
                  below, though, right? It is perfectly possible for us to choose
                  poverty for ourselves. My comment is that it's not up to us to make
                  that choice: I think God leads us into poverty when he wants that for
                  us, and keeps us out of it when he wants -that- for us. There are
                  ethical concerns -- like legitimate responsibility to one's family --
                  that may mediate whether or not we endure periods of poverty for the
                  sake of spiritual growth.

                  This is spoken from a position of privilege, not a position of one who
                  endures poverty because forced to by circumstance, family or not.
                  Poverty under these conditions is not desireable.

                  We can let go while still having things, you know. That's the hardest
                  kind of letting go to do, of course, and the most easiest to lie to
                  ourselves about accomplishing.

                  But I agree with you about even God not being able to make the decision
                  about letting go of the self for us -- that we need to make it
                  ourselves, but make it with divine assistance. Perhaps it is better to
                  say God is always making the decision for us to let go of ourselves for
                  us, but that it won't be carried out until we agree with the decision.


                  Jim R.

                  --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:

                  > Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and repeatedly)
                  > even God Himself can't make it for us, even as much as He really,
                  > really wants to. Here again, as I clearly see it, that unwillingness
                  > to
                  > actually 'let go' being the death of a many a good souls. My
                  > experience
                  > once again being, no break-a-way, no solitude, no genuine
                  > breakthrough/transformation. And for those who are at least
                  > half-awake,
                  > history also makes this quite clear.
                  >
                  > Bob M.
                  >
                  > P.S. I must add here that I gave up the bottle (alcohol) back in '77
                  > which I feel was also vital for my own transformation and spiritual
                  > awakening to occur.
                • Bob M.
                  I m not directing this at you Jim, but when one is given the gift of life and love there comes with it a tremendous sorrow from the clear realization that
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 29, 2005
                    I'm not directing this at you Jim, but when one is given the gift of
                    life and love there comes with it a tremendous sorrow from the clear
                    realization that virtually everyone, everywhere is terribly stuck in
                    the darkness, the lies, and the spirit destroying patterns of the
                    world. And today I was especially troubled again by this awareness. I
                    see no one anywhere breaking through and remain deeply tormented at
                    times as to how to ever be genuinely instrumental in the conversion
                    of others. I've mentioned previously the great number of mistakes and
                    failures I made in the journey, but today I came the realization of
                    the magnitude of the suffering I too experienced over the years.
                    Surely this is all behind me, yet I find much of the suffering, at
                    least in part, stemmed from the fact that there was no encouragement
                    from or examples by anyone around me who were themselves truly
                    growing in the light of Truth. There are times too yet that I look
                    back on my travels and seeing what I've been through that I just want
                    to throw in the towel and write everybody and the whole damn trip
                    itself off and mahamasadhi myself out of here like some others in
                    fact did, they too having reached the point of having had enough of
                    it all. Nietzsche felt it would be extremely difficult for the
                    authentic self-overcomer to hold together his strength and
                    enthusiasm, and he surely was right in this. I said to my wife again
                    today how great it would be if we knew just 2 or 3 other people who
                    themselves clearly 'knew' and were truly growing in the light of the
                    Truth. But this is not yet to be and I continue to seek direction as
                    to how to begin to form an ever increasing body of genuinely realized
                    souls. Those who will let go of all rationalizing of security-seeking
                    and in fact 'let go' absolutely. Both Yogananda and the term self-
                    realization come to mind here. A fine man was he till he had enough.
                    I continue to be loosely involved with the AA fellowship, which was
                    quite helpful to me over the many years, but unfortunately I find it
                    has become pretty much a complete non-event so far as it being a
                    launch pad to a new freedom and a new happiness for anyone as I
                    believe it once truly was. More and more I think some sort of
                    concentrated monastic or classroom type setting is necessary for
                    genuine transformation. I think here of a Gurdjieff type of soul with
                    the 12 step plan in both his hand and his heart.

                    Bob M.

                    P.S. It's surely not all that much fun having the gold in life when
                    everyone around me is satisfied with mere pocket change.
                    _______________________________________________

                    --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                    <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                    > You know I was speaking of the decision for poverty in that sentence
                    > below, though, right? It is perfectly possible for us to choose
                    > poverty for ourselves. My comment is that it's not up to us to make
                    > that choice: I think God leads us into poverty when he wants that
                    for
                    > us, and keeps us out of it when he wants -that- for us. There are
                    > ethical concerns -- like legitimate responsibility to one's family -
                    -
                    > that may mediate whether or not we endure periods of poverty for the
                    > sake of spiritual growth.
                    >
                    > This is spoken from a position of privilege, not a position of one
                    who
                    > endures poverty because forced to by circumstance, family or not.
                    > Poverty under these conditions is not desireable.
                    >
                    > We can let go while still having things, you know. That's the
                    hardest
                    > kind of letting go to do, of course, and the most easiest to lie to
                    > ourselves about accomplishing.
                    >
                    > But I agree with you about even God not being able to make the
                    decision
                    > about letting go of the self for us -- that we need to make it
                    > ourselves, but make it with divine assistance. Perhaps it is
                    better to
                    > say God is always making the decision for us to let go of ourselves
                    for
                    > us, but that it won't be carried out until we agree with the
                    decision.
                    >
                    >
                    > Jim R.
                    >
                    > --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Yes this is so Jim, yet unless one fully surrenders (and
                    repeatedly)
                    > > even God Himself can't make it for us, even as much as He really,
                    > > really wants to. Here again, as I clearly see it, that
                    unwillingness
                    > > to
                    > > actually 'let go' being the death of a many a good souls. My
                    > > experience
                    > > once again being, no break-a-way, no solitude, no genuine
                    > > breakthrough/transformation. And for those who are at least
                    > > half-awake,
                    > > history also makes this quite clear.
                    > >
                    > > Bob M.
                    > >
                    > > P.S. I must add here that I gave up the bottle (alcohol) back
                    in '77
                    > > which I feel was also vital for my own transformation and
                    spiritual
                    > > awakening to occur.
                  • <none>
                    Bob -- I will always question our ability to really know where most people around us are. Jim R.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
                      Bob -- I will always question our ability to really know where most
                      people around us are.

                      Jim R.
                    • Bob M.
                      That s good Jim. I still do the same myself. There are still some 2+2s here that don t yet add up to precisely 4, but I m continually observing, weighing, and
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
                        That's good Jim. I still do the same myself. There are still some 2+2s
                        here that don't yet add up to precisely 4, but I'm continually
                        observing, weighing, and questioning. Yet I feel I have a pretty keen
                        sense of discernment of who is and isn't capable of breakthrough, or
                        the return to and the redevelopment of love. But of course ultimately
                        as we know, or should know, self-knowledge and understanding is the key
                        and being fully 'Other' or intuitively driven the goal. Have you read
                        much of Nietzsche or Otto Weininger Jim?

                        Bob M.
                        __________________________________________


                        --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                        <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                        > Bob -- I will always question our ability to really know where most
                        > people around us are.
                        >
                        > Jim R.
                      • <none>
                        I ve read Nietzche. He s a first rate writer with second rate ideas. Kierkegaard was better. Haven t read Weiniger, though. Suggestions for a place to start?
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
                          I've read Nietzche. He's a first rate writer with second rate ideas.
                          Kierkegaard was better.

                          Haven't read Weiniger, though. Suggestions for a place to start?

                          Jim R.
                        • Bob M.
                          K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last nook and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here again it s been ages since
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
                            K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last nook
                            and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here again
                            it's been ages since I read K. Did you know Freud felt that Nietzsche
                            had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man who
                            ever lived or perhaps ever would live?

                            Weininger? Some of his biggie 'Sex and Character' should suffice. I
                            think you can find at least a pretty lengthy excerpt of it here
                            online (maybe even the whole thing). I'd suggest you don't have any
                            guns close by when you get into it.

                            Bob M.
                            ___________________________________

                            --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                            <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                            > I've read Nietzche. He's a first rate writer with second rate
                            ideas.
                            > Kierkegaard was better.
                            >
                            > Haven't read Weiniger, though. Suggestions for a place to start?
                            >
                            > Jim R.
                          • <none>
                            There s more to existence than the abyss, Bob. That was Nietzche s problem. Kierkegaard saw the abyss then saw something else beyond it that made it look
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
                              There's more to existence than the abyss, Bob. That was Nietzche's
                              problem. Kierkegaard saw the abyss then saw something else beyond it
                              that made it look very pale and small in comparison. Funny that
                              Nietzche never read K...even one of N's contemporaries said to him,
                              "you gotta read this guy."

                              Thanks for the W. link, though. And I'll take your advice :).

                              Jim R.

                              --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@...> wrote:

                              > K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last nook
                              >
                              > and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here again
                              > it's been ages since I read K. Did you know Freud felt that Nietzsche
                              >
                              > had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man who
                              > ever lived or perhaps ever would live?
                              >
                              > Weininger? Some of his biggie 'Sex and Character' should suffice. I
                              > think you can find at least a pretty lengthy excerpt of it here
                              > online (maybe even the whole thing). I'd suggest you don't have any
                              > guns close by when you get into it.
                              >
                              > Bob M.
                            • Bob M.
                              But again I find that one must go there (abyss) first in order to ever truly soar like an eagle. Abyss, kundalini awakening, dark nights, K or Paul s fear and
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 30, 2005
                                But again I find that one must go there (abyss) first in order to
                                ever truly soar like an eagle. Abyss, kundalini awakening, dark
                                nights, K or Paul's fear and trembling. Whatever one calls it. My
                                view? Few are they who've gone fully through it and thereby having
                                set up permanent residence in the Kingdom ('beyond'?[good & evil?]).
                                Do you consider yourself to be one Jim?

                                There'll be little debate or argument from here. Not good to hide or
                                help another to hide in knowledge or rightness. Life's too short.
                                Absolute 'self'-knowledge and transparency is the goal, remember? Of
                                course surrender is a part of the mix too.

                                BTW, here's a dynamite link by David Quinn that you might like that I
                                ran across looking for O.W. Actually his whole sight ain't bad at all.

                                http://home.primus.com.au/davidquinn/Books/Jesus01.htm

                                Bob M.

                                P.S. I find it's not good to put all one's eggs in the same basket.
                                _________________________________________

                                --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                                <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                                > There's more to existence than the abyss, Bob. That was Nietzche's
                                > problem. Kierkegaard saw the abyss then saw something else beyond
                                it
                                > that made it look very pale and small in comparison. Funny that
                                > Nietzche never read K...even one of N's contemporaries said to him,
                                > "you gotta read this guy."
                                >
                                > Thanks for the W. link, though. And I'll take your advice :).
                                >
                                > Jim R.
                                >
                                > --- "Bob M." <new_trail_blazer@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > K over N, you say? Not here. I think N fully searched every last
                                nook
                                > >
                                > > and cranny of the abyss and in this regard outdid K. But here
                                again
                                > > it's been ages since I read K. Did you know Freud felt that
                                Nietzsche
                                > >
                                > > had a more deeply penetrating insight into himself than any man
                                who
                                > > ever lived or perhaps ever would live?
                                > >
                                > > Weininger? Some of his biggie 'Sex and Character' should suffice.
                                I
                                > > think you can find at least a pretty lengthy excerpt of it here
                                > > online (maybe even the whole thing). I'd suggest you don't have
                                any
                                > > guns close by when you get into it.
                                > >
                                > > Bob M.
                              • <none>
                                If I choose that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me. Continual worry about where other people are is just another way of avoiding
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
                                  "If I choose that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You
                                  follow me." Continual worry about where other people are is just
                                  another way of avoiding one's own growth.

                                  Of course I agree the dark night is a stage. So is betrayal and
                                  failure. It eradicates all pretense about ourselves. Nietzche refused
                                  to face this, so I think his facing of the abyss as negation was BS.
                                  What he needed to do was negate himself, and that was the very thing he
                                  was unwilling to do.

                                  I don't think absolute self knowledge is the goal, though. I think
                                  it's a by-product. There are far more interesting things to know in
                                  the universe than ourselves.

                                  Jim R.
                                • Bob M.
                                  There s certainly always some sorrow here to see good souls miss their mark Jim. But continual worry.....no. At least not anymore. What value has it (another
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 1, 2005
                                    There's certainly always some sorrow here to see good souls miss
                                    their mark Jim. But continual worry.....no. At least not anymore.
                                    What value has it (another heavy lesson here)? I was just refreshing
                                    myself with some K quotes as a result of looking for that link for
                                    you. HEAVY! HEAVY! HEAVY!. Yet I'm there (immersed head to toe in
                                    Kierkegaardian-likeness and beyond). Now to get a few others (that 1
                                    in 10,000 according to K - I think he said somewhere ) to 'let go'
                                    and get there themselves.

                                    If I'm correct you're 39 Jim. Good time for the leap. Don't wait too
                                    long. The mind crystallizes and the heart hardens with time. Many
                                    good souls, as I see it, tough it out through these critical years
                                    and as a result forever miss taking the leap. As I said before my low
                                    ebb in life came at 36, as did Nietzsche's. But essentially I
                                    suffered another 4 or 5 years in what then came to be a 22 year
                                    marriage. But at 41 I took the leap, packed it all in (the American
                                    Dream) and took up residence in a nearby mission. And from there I
                                    began to grow up and discover life all over again in a brand new and
                                    wonderful manner. And herein casting off all the old worldly
                                    conditioning and making being true to mine own self job one.

                                    "Far more interesting things to know in the universe than ourselves."
                                    You are right Jim. The greatest of them being LOVE!

                                    How was it said, 'know thyself' and ye shall know the universe and
                                    the gods? To which I would add, yes indeedy, and in a totally brand
                                    new and wonderful way.

                                    Bob M.
                                    ___________________________________________

                                    --- In theexistentialsociety@yahoogroups.com, "<none>"
                                    <jamesrovira@y...> wrote:
                                    > "If I choose that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You
                                    > follow me." Continual worry about where other people are is just
                                    > another way of avoiding one's own growth.
                                    >
                                    > Of course I agree the dark night is a stage. So is betrayal and
                                    > failure. It eradicates all pretense about ourselves. Nietzche
                                    refused
                                    > to face this, so I think his facing of the abyss as negation was
                                    BS.
                                    > What he needed to do was negate himself, and that was the very
                                    thing he
                                    > was unwilling to do.
                                    >
                                    > I don't think absolute self knowledge is the goal, though. I think
                                    > it's a by-product. There are far more interesting things to know in
                                    > the universe than ourselves.
                                    >
                                    > Jim R.
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